The Trap Of Believing You Will Ever Grasp Infinity Intellectually

[Razard86]

I recently had a discussion with someone who is really pursuing intellectually more knowledge about the Infinite. This is a fool's errand!! Now there is nothing wrong with deep contemplation about it, go for it if you want but you will never be able to grasp Infinity Intellectually. Now many people will challenge me on this, which makes me laugh....how foolish and blind do you have to be to not realize this? I can show you through your own direct experience that you will never be able to grasp it intellectually.

Do you know yourself completely? Do you know yourself 100 percent? The answer....is no. What life shows you through your direct experience is you will NEVER know yourself completely. You are constantly changing and life around you, which is also you is constantly changing. So you don't even know your own self....yet you think you can learn absolute infinity in its totality? 

I have come across certain egoic aspirations that blow my mind but this one takes the cake!! Now again there is nothing wrong with contemplating about the absolute, I do it daily. But I am not fooling myself that I can ever know it. You can BE IT, but you will never know it in its totality. That is why we are here, to get to know ourselves. At the end you will discover...you knew yourself a little, but you kept changing. 

The Ego wants to know everything, lack of ego is the acceptance of that which does not know. There are many things you have been, which you do not even know why. You then concoct a story as to why afterward. The story is just an illusion, your attempt to string things together to make sense of it. The story/interpretation is never it. It just is. 

There are many people who are great at things, but could never explain WHY they are great at it. Go around and talk to people who are not great at explaining things. You don't need to be able to explain something to do it, and being able to explain something doesn't mean you can do it. So what that reveals is the intellectual understanding of something....is never it. Of course I am not saying anything new here.....but people's egos keep forgetting this.

Intuition does not need an explanation. Stop being so addicted to model making, my gosh its like a disease.

[Eyowey]

I see infinity as everything that can possibly be dreamed in 3 dimensions. The existense of more than 3 dimensions seems unlikely to me because as god I would always want to live in the highest dimension.

[Razard86]

48 minutes ago, Eyowey said:

I see infinity as everything that can possibly be dreamed in 3 dimensions. The existense of more than 3 dimensions seems unlikely to me because as god I would always want to live in the highest dimension.

There are infinite dimensions

[axiom]

19 hours ago, Razard86 said:

There are infinite dimensions

Who knows? 

[LastThursday]

On 04/12/2022 at 0:18 PM, Razard86 said:

you will never be able to grasp Infinity Intellectually.

Just playing devil's advocate:

There's circularity in this way of thinking. In order to say A is not B you have to know what A and B are to start with. Your claim is that intellectual pursuit IS NOT infinity. This means you know what infinity is already. Maybe you do, maybe you don't, I have no idea. However, I can say that the concept of infinity is itself just that: a concept (a.k.a. coming from intellect). 

I don't know what infinity means to you. But to me it might mean: never ending process (which you allude to), or unbounded thing with no end. Again, this is just my intellect and conceptual thinking. I can slap on the label of "infinity" onto anything in my experience. But the label is never the thing itself. When it comes to communication, everything is words, models and intellectualising.

I don't know if I've explained myself well here, but maybe you see the problem?

 

[Hojo]

You sound like a cartoon villain monologuing in my head.

[Razard86]

9 hours ago, Hojo said:

You sound like a cartoon villain monologuing in my head.

Thank you for such a precious honor. That might be one of the greatest compliments I have ever received!! 

 

8 hours ago, Jehovah increases said:

No, you can grasp  Infinity Intellectually your ego loves to delude itself you have to become it, and even then you won't truly understand the magnitude of how big you are. There are infinite dimensions higher or lower dimensions hyper geometries sub-infinities within infinity.  And anything that you could ever imagine and beyond all that you could exist already does.

You can't grasp it.

 

12 hours ago, LastThursday said:

Just playing devil's advocate:

There's circularity in this way of thinking. In order to say A is not B you have to know what A and B are to start with. Your claim is that intellectual pursuit IS NOT infinity. This means you know what infinity is already. Maybe you do, maybe you don't, I have no idea. However, I can say that the concept of infinity is itself just that: a concept (a.k.a. coming from intellect). 

I don't know what infinity means to you. But to me it might mean: never ending process (which you allude to), or unbounded thing with no end. Again, this is just my intellect and conceptual thinking. I can slap on the label of "infinity" onto anything in my experience. But the label is never the thing itself. When it comes to communication, everything is words, models and intellectualising.

I don't know if I've explained myself well here, but maybe you see the problem?

 

Yeah you made my point, concepts can only point to it.

 

13 hours ago, axiom said:

Who knows? 

Exactly!!!

[axiom]

7 hours ago, Razard86 said:

You can't grasp it.

This is why “God Realisation” is not “waking up”. 

God realisation is not achievable. Infinity cannot self-reflect. It cannot circumscribe itself since it is always bigger than the reflection.

“God Realisation” is the ultimate astonishing dream… the ultimate novel rabbit hole, opening up hitherto unknown and unfathomable depths. 

The dream goes deeper than seems possible. It has no end. It chases its own tail. It elevates novelty so seductively and so persuasively that the way out becomes barely a whisper, a niggling half-remembered truth that eventually, with enough distance, disappears from view.

The infinite dream is all that remains. A spiral of madness. Seeking. Forever. Nothing to do with awakening.

[Breakingthewall]

6 hours ago, axiom said:

God Realisation” is the ultimate astonishing dream

No , god realization is simply now without histories. delete everything and what remains? this right now. exists, is. the deception is masterfully constructed, the appearance that something is happening. deserves a round of applause.

But God is, because existence exist. Couldn't be otherwise. 

[axiom]

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

No , god realization is simply now without histories. delete everything and what remains? this right now. exists

That is a non-dual type of awakening, not God Realisation - at least not in the way Leo talks about it.

[Breakingthewall]

16 minutes ago, axiom said:

That is a non-dual type of awakening, not God Realisation - at least not in the way Leo talks about it.

But it's the same. When you disappear and the eternal now remains, you realize that the eternal now is you, but that you were under the illusion that there was a you in contrast to what is not you. then you realize that there is no you, therefore...everything is you.

And if everything is you, and you are creating this apparent duality that seems to make some sense, who are you if not total reality, aka god?

[Moksha]

Does Consciousness have knowledge, as if it is a precious possession to cling to? Consciousness is awareness dreaming of knowledge, existence, and experience but these are only a dream. It observes the unfurling of its creation, but when it chooses to realize its true nature, apparent knowledge dissipates and there is only attributeless awareness.

Awakening is Self-realization as the unjudging Witness of the cosmos. In the depths of the ocean, there is no knowledge, only non-conceptual being.

A little Learning is a dang’rous Thing;
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian Spring:
There shallow Draughts intoxicate the Brain,
And drinking largely sobers us again.

- Alexander Pope

[Ry4n]

I see infinity as a negative aspect of reality rather than additive; meaning that finitude itself is imagined whilst infinity is the absence of that imagination. Hence why ceasing the mind leaves one bare with nothing but a vast, boundless reality. 
So in that sense silence and infinity go together, making the intellectual pursuit of infinity a total futile contradiction. 

[Razard86]

11 hours ago, Moksha said:

Does Consciousness have knowledge, as if it is a precious possession to cling to? Consciousness is awareness dreaming of knowledge, existence, and experience but these are only a dream. It observes the unfurling of its creation, but when it chooses to realize its true nature, apparent knowledge dissipates and there is only attributeless awareness.

Awakening is Self-realization as the unjudging Witness of the cosmos. In the depths of the ocean, there is no knowledge, only non-conceptual being.

A little Learning is a dang’rous Thing;
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian Spring:
There shallow Draughts intoxicate the Brain,
And drinking largely sobers us again.

- Alexander Pope

I like you, one of the few I see who gets it on the forums. Yes that is what awakening is. Realizing that what you are just is, before you construct knowledge, and concepts, and judging etc. Now if only we could get people to understand that after that realization the next step is to bring that into your daily life.

What does that mean? Full Acceptance of what is. No demonization of the ego. No resistance of your expressions. If you can remove all judgment then you can express without holding on. This allows you to be at peace at all times. When there is anger, there will still be peace, when there is sadness there will still be peace, when there is joy, still peace. 

This is liberation, which is your natural state and you cannot conceptualize your way there. You cannot psychedelic your way there. Only full acceptance of your creation, your avatar, and your current life position and all that entails. When you can release the judgment of your avatar all judgment of others disappears. 

This doesn't mean you become a push over, or that you never get angry, this just means that you hold onto nothing. When this is truly understood, then you have truly been reborn and have returned to how you were when your life began, not full of judgment of your self.

Edited December 7, 2022 by Razard86

[Breakingthewall]

13 hours ago, Moksha said:

A little Learning is a dang’rous Thing;
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian Spring:
There shallow Draughts intoxicate the Brain,
And drinking largely sobers us again.

Great quote. The only way to detox is to go to the end. staying in the middle is toxic. forces you to remain in no man's land, outside of the present. alienated, crazy.to regain sanity it is necessary to end the cycle. 

Interesting person Alexander pope. Thanks for sharing 

Edited December 7, 2022 by Breakingthewall

[axiom]

18 hours ago, Moksha said:

Consciousness is awareness dreaming of knowledge, existence, and experience but these are only a dream. It observes the unfurling of its creation, but when it chooses to realize its true nature, apparent knowledge dissipates and there is only attributeless awareness.

"Awareness" is an attribute. Awareness of. It always seems to be dependently arising.... never existing on its own. 

Awareness of a chair is in reality just the chair. There is no awareness there at all. Just the appearance of the chair.

Eventually you realise that what seems to be awareness is only ever dependently arising precisely because it has no independent existence whatsoever, and never has.

Awareness is not aware of anything. It's a 100% misnomer.

There is only appearance. 

You have to step outside the box of thinking an appearance must be for someone, or that it must belong to someone.

Appearance doesn't belong to anyone or anything. And yet, here it is. This is what 99.9% of people misunderstand about non duality. It is completely (and actually quite shockingly) different to merely saying that "there is only awareness" or that "you are God". These other realisations preserve the self or Self, erroneously.

Edited December 7, 2022 by axiom

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, axiom said:

Awareness is not aware of anything. It's a 100% misnomer.

Absolutely. is a name that induces a misconception of something that is being aware of something else, and this is the ego. the word reality would be much more appropriate. 

Edited December 7, 2022 by Breakingthewall

[Moksha]

13 hours ago, Razard86 said:

What does that mean? Full Acceptance of what is. No demonization of the ego. No resistance of your expressions. If you can remove all judgment then you can express without holding on. This allows you to be at peace at all times. When there is anger, there will still be peace, when there is sadness there will still be peace, when there is joy, still peace. 

This is liberation, which is your natural state and you cannot conceptualize your way there. You cannot psychedelic your way there. Only full acceptance of your creation, your avatar, and your current life position and all that entails. When you can release the judgment of your avatar all judgment of others disappears. 

Well said. The ego is not the enemy, only identification with it, which always leads to suffering. When Consciousness chooses to awaken within, you realize there is nothing the cosmos can do to harm you. You take life less seriously. It is dreaming lucidly. You realize your ultimate nature as Consciousness, but choose to enjoy the dream through the character you create. It becomes the most beautiful, creative, abundant part of the dream.

You also realize the avatar, and every other avatar within the dream, is simply an expression of yourself. They have no free will of their own, so how can they be judged?

[Moksha]

10 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

The only way to detox is to go to the end. staying in the middle is toxic. forces you to remain in no man's land, outside of the present. alienated, crazy.to regain sanity it is necessary to end the cycle.

Exactly. This is why spiritual bypassing doesn't work. To awaken within the dream, you have to go the full gauntlet your ultimate Self demands, before it shows its face. It is easy to claim enlightenment, but it will never happen until you have drunk life to the bitter dregs.

[Moksha]

5 hours ago, axiom said:

"Awareness" is an attribute. Awareness of. It always seems to be dependently arising.... never existing on its own.

In its ultimate state Awareness, or Consciousness if you prefer, is aware of and conscious of nothing but itself. It is absolute, raw, unfettered awareness with no object to be aware of. It is the eternal Self-aware subject. The cosmos, and every object in it, is created by Consciousness to experience the phenomena of sensations, thoughts, and feelings which don't exist in ultimate reality.

You can directly realize this, even within the dream. Have you never been Consciousness, in this moment, with no object to focus your awareness on but itself? That epiphany is the point and purpose of meditation.

The Self, pure awareness, shines as the light within the heart, surrounded by the senses. Only seeming to think, seeming to move, the Self neither sleeps nor wakes nor dreams.

- Katha 4.1.7