Should my parents start with NN or 5-meo DMT?

[Steve Tumbleweed]

My parents have decided to try their first enlightening experience with me as their trustworthy seater. I'm no guru, nor do I plan to impose any Ideas onto them. I just plan on guiding their meditation to raise consciousness and focus on the practice letting go before letting them immerse and live through their own experience. I've done many different psychedelics at different times of my life, but since this is their first and possibly only experience (until they try and decide for themselves I'd rather treat it as such). Should they as newcomers start with NN-DMT and then possibly move over to 5-MEO or is it better to go straight to 5-MEO?


Note: I know these are not quantitatively different, but rather qualitatively different. As far as I can tell, NN has a lot of outward projection and 5-MEO is all about inwards perspective and ego death, but I've heard trip reports of either case being true for both of these substances. 

[tlowedajuicemayne]

I don't know if DMT in any form is good for a first experience. But hey, if they're really dead set on it I'd start them with NN. 

[Steve Tumbleweed]

@tlowedajuicemayne thank you for your reply.
They got interested since a lot of their friends haven been sharing their ayahuasca experiences, and did their own research on the subject. My mom in particular is interested in the "self therapy" effects of it although they're repelled by the shamanic aspect of practitioners, the fact of them not knowing the facilitators personally (thus them wanting me as their seater) as well as the physical symptoms (nausea, diarrhea) and the long duration of most trips.
I talked to them about my various experiences with mescaline, LSD, salvia, DMT and mushrooms and they seemed really interested in the "enlightenment pill" effect of DMT, the elegance of its effectiveness and the therapeutic uses of it, as well as the potency and overall short durability (I've however made them aware of the possibility of them encountering mystical experiences and time dilation during their trip, but that is something they're willing to experience for themselves if it comes down to it, rather than being imposed a certain idea by some shaman like the local ayahuasca rituals do)

[tlowedajuicemayne]

@Steve Tumbleweed No prob. NN is great but it definitely isn't an enlightenment pill. However, it is radical (as you know)…IDK man. I don't share with people because I don't want to be responsible for the sanity or another human being. One wild ride can cause someone to become unhinged, who knows? But if you do share NN dmt with someone, I recommend throwing them in the deep end. No baby doses. Goodluck 

[Grateful Dead]

Both are not suitable for beginners. Start them off with some shrooms or LSD.

[Vincent S]

 

[Steve Tumbleweed]

@acidgoofy I don't think that's how you ramp up psychedelics. Each has its own experiences and breakthrough doses, I've had full-on mindfuck trips with lsd and mushrooms too, and on any chosen psychedelic you can start at safer dosages. 60mg should be fine for NN while 5meo has a lower threshold but equivalences aside you can kind of match any psychedelic to a "beginner" dose or a full on breakthrough dose. My question was more regarding the qualities themselves rather than viewing one psychedelic as a gateway to another. 

Edited November 29, 2022 by Steve Tumbleweed

[Starlight321]

I'd second what @acidgoofysaid. You bear a huge resposibility for their psychological well being and that they have the best trip possible and don't want them traumatized. A good dose of dmt is analogue in intensity to min 5g shrooms. The DMT and 5 Meo experiences are far more uncontrollable than a moderate dose of shrooms or lsd and it is likely that they lose their shit and panic because it takes experience and letting go to handle this collaps of reality. I'd just let them try a medium dose of shrooms or lsd first and see how they handle it and then dmt.

Edited November 29, 2022 by Starlight321

[Steve Tumbleweed]

@Starlight321 They are aware of the possible consequences, I'm not urging nor promoting them to use anything. I won't be held responsible for their mental state or well being. They just need someone experienced whom they can trust, and their son compared to all the fake gurus and self claimed shamans seemed like their best alternative. That's when they contacted me. We are all adults. I think you project onto me and take for granted my lack of experience / inability to take care for their wellbeing and procuring a safe trip. I'm not asking for advice on how to take care for them, I have two options available and asked for opinions on either two of the given options. NN or 5-meo
They did their own research on ayahuasca, and that's where they wanted to start. Compared to a 10 hour trip of ayahuasca plus the vomiting and diarrhea, I think they'll be fine from a light dose of pure dmt.

That being said, since nausea and physical discomfort seem to be their main concern, and given the sometimes dizzy feel one can get from 5-meo, we have chosen to go with NN

Edited November 29, 2022 by Steve Tumbleweed

[halfknots]

The most obvious difference is that there are physical risks associated with 5-MeO-DMT which are generally not present with N,n-DMT, namely seizures, respiratory failure, and vomiting. This largely dose dependent, but there are some people who have these reactions even at lower dosages.

If it were me and my parents, which it has been, I would start with N,n-DMT. If and when they decide they want to try 5-MeO-DMT, better to do so at least initially with a high integrity experienced facilitator.

[Matt23]

Just wanna say, love the title of this thread lol.

8 hours ago, tlowedajuicemayne said:

I don't know if DMT in any form is good for a first experience. But hey, if they're really dead set on it I'd start them with NN. 

Ya... probably best to try something more tame like shrooms or LSD. 

I guess the trick is to have them have an experience and give them something they enjoy so they'll want to try more stuff, eventually leading to DMT.  Basically like a drug dealer does with their clients lol.

Maybe MDMA?  Low dose (80-100mg--- probs closer to 80mg if first timers)

[Breakingthewall]

much better 5 meo. nn will give them strange, meaningless hallucinations, and probably fear. for what? so they think psychedelics are dangerous and crazy? 5 meo is the key for anyone who wants to use psychedelics as an awakening aid. no magic pill but great help

[Matt23]

16 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

much better 5 meo. nn will give them strange, meaningless hallucinations, and probably fear. for what? so they think psychedelics are dangerous and crazy? 5 meo is the key for anyone who wants to use psychedelics as an awakening aid. no magic pill but great help

That's been my fear of trying 5-Meo... I've tried other psychedelics and have felt off-kilter from them a few times.  I'm worried 5-Meo would like really be too much.

[Breakingthewall]

7 hours ago, Matt23 said:

That's been my fear of trying 5-Meo... I've tried other psychedelics and have felt off-kilter from them a few times.  I'm worried 5-Meo would like really be too much.

Imo you should explain them what is the point of 5 meo, and start with low doses. 5 meo is a process of purification 

Probably would be better start with mushrooms, and if they find interesting the psychedelic, continue with 5 meo

Edited November 30, 2022 by Breakingthewall

[Grateful Dead]

14 hours ago, Steve Tumbleweed said:

@acidgoofy I don't think that's how you ramp up psychedelics. Each has its own experiences and breakthrough doses, I've had full-on mindfuck trips with lsd and mushrooms too, and on any chosen psychedelic you can start at safer dosages. 60mg should be fine for NN while 5meo has a lower threshold but equivalences aside you can kind of match any psychedelic to a "beginner" dose or a full on breakthrough dose. My question was more regarding the qualities themselves rather than viewing one psychedelic as a gateway to another. 

I understand what you are saying and agree with you to a certain extent. But I suspect that with direct and very pure psychedelics like 5-MeO or NN-DMT you have a good chance of scaring your parents off psychedelics and then they will miss out. Most people just aren't ready for such an experience, even if they think they want it.

Lower threshold doses with these substances can be even more frightening than breakthrough doses as the ego will fight all the way. I have introduced a few people to psychedelics and in my experience it is best to start them off with slow and gentle substances.

[Steve Tumbleweed]

@Matt23 I don't want to nor do I need to "trick" them into using more psychedelics, they themselves got interested in ayahuasca and they themselves decided the factors which repelled them from having that be their first experience. It's not my concern whether or not they will keep on using them, although I'm certain they might like them, and with that regard, I think using the more tame psychedelics afterwards may help them integrate their learnings from nn-dmt as well as process the other psychedelics more straightforward rather than recreationally getting distracted by the pretty colors on that tree over there and having to ramp up into higher consciousness stages. They're both around 50 years old and have had their own spiritual paths, She's an agnostic by decision and He's a freemason with inquisitive perspective wanting to attain his own worldview

[Steve Tumbleweed]

@acidgoofy If they get scared off it'll only be the beginning of an integration process, it may take them years for them to understand what they saw. If so, so be it. Exactly as you said it, some people are just not ready, and they may realize that and retrieve to regular meditation or just want to google more on the subject to try and explain what the fuck happened. or just drop it and keep on living their regular meaningful lives altogether. They're not depressed or unhappy as they are. 

I myself got a pretty fucked up experience with Salvia, about 300 years worth of lives and deaths ultimately leading to The Loom, Sally Space or whatever that common breakthrough place is called. It took a while but I could say without fear of being wrong that it was the most meaningful experience I've had in my life so far. It taught me so much about life and death. It also aided with taming the endless pursuit of meaning. I think the most important aspect of the preparation process is helping them find peace in the present moment, letting go and not pursuing the questions or answers in a linguistic manner but just experiencing the process and living it through with the least resistance possible. Making them aware of the possible fear of death they may experience and helping reassure they will come back and it'll be fine. Even then, I think the fear of death itself becomes sort of a question and the trip itself becomes the answer. 
If scaring the shit out of them helps them eventually accept death in a loving and peaceful manner when the day arrives, then so be it. If it only teaches them love and comprehension and enjoyment for the present then so be it.
I've had dozens of psychedelic trips, enough to realize there's always something to gain from good or bad experiences, and also accept that knowledge and enlightenment never ends. There is always a new paradigm shift to accept, the only permanence is change, and the only true responsibility one has with that higher power of permanent change is acceptance of letting go. Shedding off always comes with itch and discomfort, so to speak.
I don't want them to have hippy trippy fun. I don't particularly want them to have anything for that matter, but they reached out to me because they seem to be pursuing inner recognition and experience those powerful entities. After some though, I think maybe experiencing those outter gods may be a good awakening of their curiosity for them to later on in life realize through 5-meo that they themselves are god. If it makes any sense... that's why I think NN is the way to go for now, but I won't push it onto them whatsoever. Even if at the last second they decide not to smoke, then we stop and save it for later. It's not like psychedelics expire, lol

Edited November 30, 2022 by Steve Tumbleweed

[Steve Tumbleweed]

@halfknots Agreed, after giving it some thought, I think if physical discomfort is the deciding factor for them not wanting to use ayahuasca, then 5-meo might bring about similar discomfort which they may not be prepared to face 
We'll go with NN, we'll do it over the Christmas holidays, on the first day I'll dip their toes on  the pre-breakthrough with guided meditation followed by Changa and then if they feel like it move over to the pure DMT a couple of days later.
Thank you for replying 

 

Edited November 30, 2022 by Steve Tumbleweed

[Steve Tumbleweed]

@Matt23 I feel that way about Iboga to be honest, week long trip sounds like a lot to me... even the 12 hour trips of LSD require a lot of preparation for me nowadays. Then there is Salvia with its 5 minute trips but often absolutely insane Inception-esque time dilation...
NN-dmt is, more often than not,  a 10-15min ride for better or for worse
 

Edited November 30, 2022 by Steve Tumbleweed

[Kensho]

I think a long lasting trip is better than a crazy-paced very intense one. 5-meo-dmt is no joke. 

The best begginer's psychedelic in my experience is San Pedro (huachuma). It is mild and has an easy going vibe, but lasts long and, boy, that taste...

 LSD is the most balanced one (always test it). Mushrooms are more playful but can be tricksters. 

Ayahuasca is on a level by itself and it is by far the best of all the long lasting experiences.