Discrimination on this forum

[bejapuskas]

58 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Me developing thicker skin on what issue?

I meant the people who get reported, developing a thicker skin and taking a warning as a message to think about their behavior. It is much easier for me and does not require me to write so many messages just to find myself burned out and the other person not changing their mind.

I have been forced to develop a lot of thick skin from people criticizing me on all sorts of issues.

Yeh, it is hard, but does any of them invalidate you as a person or feel like a personal attack, or make you afraid of sharing who you are or what your perspective is?

I force myself to endure perspectives here which I disagree with because I don't want to create an echo-chamber.

I hate to break it to you, but the echo-chamber is already here. The echo chamber is that of privileged conservative people, because the atmosphere here that allows biased perspectives to be freely shared makes it so that people from marginalized groups are hesitant when sharing their perspectives. Can't you see how this is obviously the case? Do you see anyone sharing books about gender, sexuality, race etc. that are kind of different from the general rhetoric here? I really don't, this place seems like a very intellectually homogenous environment.

Our general policy here is to control speech here as little as we can get away with, so that diverse perspectives are shared. I don't like blocking any perspective unless it is clearly toxic or in bad-faith. Or is just misinformation or dogma.

However, because of the fear that this "free speech" creates, diverse perspectives are not shared. Put yourself in the shoes of somebody who is worried for their safety everyday and then try and imagine being on a forum like this one. You really would not feel like sharing your perspective here, you would run the hell away pretty quickly. This is already an echo chamber.

- - - - -

Anyhow, if you find content here that disturbs you, let me know and I will investigate it. If I think that it's harmful/toxic I will remove it.

Thanks

BTW, we issue warnings to people every week for vulgar posting. So it's not like people will get away with that here for long. Any genuine racist, homophobe, sexist, etc. will eventually get banned here. We have banned dozens of them.

Thank you for banning those people. However, if you think that saying that there are 2 genders, which is literally both psychologically and biologically wrong, because there are more than 2 sexes and they are not just a versions of man and woman, is just a perspective - to what lengths do we want to tolerate people arguing for these lies? If I say I think Asian people are less intelligent because of some biased experience or that women enjoy being paid less because of something else, which I have no proof for, do we also tolerate that? Or is this targetting specifically trans and nonbinary people? Because that's what I currently feel like it is doing, the limit for what is tolerated, what perspectives we are willing to listen to here, is higher than other groups, because of double standards and transphobia. 2 genders is not a perspective, people are denied control of their bodies and freedom and so many other horrible things because of this ideology, and cultural cleansing was practiced on cultures with more than 2 gender because they were like this, there is generational trauma around this too.

 

[bejapuskas]

@Danioover9000  Yeh it will strawman, because it is hella afraid of getting harrassed or silenced. I don't know, I felt afraid Leo might take away my moderator rights after this thread, or just ban me, I don't know. It didn't happen. But it was there. This is exactly why we should not trigger people, because triggering them makes it harder for them to share their diverse perspectives. (and people who others are afraid of have like the most diverse perspectives there are)

44 minutes ago, ValiantSalvatore said:

I find it odd and sometimes to stereotypical, it would be cool for instance if I could associate my identity to a country and not to my phenotypical expressing and laughing about the "stupidity" of ethnocentrism and instead I am forced more or less to think I am part of the group black. I could not laugh for example about the prejudices and ethnocentric behaviour as I frankly don't know which country my black family stems from, from Africa. I can easily laugh and empathize with German stereotypical Memes and Stereotypes, I mean I can watch Hitler in his original language and I legit have empathy and compassion for the guy, as he simply did not knew better, and I frankly just think he is funny. In terms of also German society beign idiotically compassionate to that idiot. With that I mean sometimes on the forum things are not appropriately associated, there are no "white memes" making fun of "white people" as a group, there used to be some mems and videos that invovled black people doing smth. stupid and fun and it's associated often to blacks. It's not like oh that is so sterotypical "italian/russian" and you can laugh about the cultures and manners, I mean it's implied, yet I often felt and saw it was blown out of context. Every black person is a stage red macho-jerk. I saw that a couple of times. Also the subtle nuances sometimes I experience as a black person. It could just be me, also gaslighting these experiences is so common, when I talk with black friends they listen first and at one point might tell me, oh that is garbadge or smth. To show me I am lost in my perception. I mean I have close to 0 mistakes in the implicit association test. etc.

I am sorry you feel stereotyped here, I wish people could see you more as a person. I get that, in the Czech Republic, we also laugh at Hitler and it is nothing, because it is like super old and behind us. This one German cried to me when she heard me speaking German because why would I learn such a horrible language and I was like chill it is ok. But I am not justifying invasion of countries, I just think that Germany made progress in this way, but other countries and systems have not, like racism and slavery, so I do not support jokes about them. I did not know Germans were compassionate with Hitler, how so? Any kind of black stereotype is wrong, like even positive ones, because then people see you as like the model minority. People should just be seen as people, without being blind to the experiences they might be uncomfortable with of course. But that is just consent and common decency, or it should be. I think we should make fun of white people more, white people (like myself) are not really taught to see their race as something that plays a role, like in the Czech Republic people say that Roma and White are the same race, which is kind of ass, because they obviously live in totally different realities. It is really problematic to like put people and countries into this spiral dynamics stage model, that is also why I shared the articles about non-Western societies being super politically developed, but the ignorants who should have read them said they are not currently interested, that is what I get for being nice and making suggestions. It does not work, yet they tell me it does, stupid hypocrisy. I don't think it is just you, people here are quite gross and they have so much white fragility in them and they should really like start doing real self reflection work, not just confirming their biases. 

You know I am not black, but I am a trans woman and I feel like black men and trans women of any color have this one similar stereotype associated with them - being perceived as violent threats. So I hope you do not get offended if I say I kind of maybe relate to you at least in this way. I face a lot of shit everyday related to this, and I was very aggressive and I would fight back in the beginning when I came out to myself and others, but at this point I just cannot see people ever changing, so I just deny the possibility to make any influence on them. What I am trying to say is that even though I still face this shit, I suppressed my willingness to fight to a big extent and I just gaslight myself constantly, because it hurts less than trying to hopelessly fight. Do you get what I am saying? I was wondering if your friends are maybe doing this just on like a collective scale, like being aware of what is happening, but like suppressing this things to like keep each other safe from bastard cops etc.? Just something that came to my mind, maybe it is nonsense, but whenever somebody makes you uncomfortable, it is their fault and you are totally real for feeling it. 

It's just as far as I know the issue of human design for example the doll test, where even black kids choose the white doll, I don't know if this is priming as well as if Ukranian Roma's have darker skin color. There are just more strong negative associations with the color as well as perception of black.
https://www.verywellmind.com/the-color-psychology-of-black-2795814
You can also see this in the beauty industry which is an annoyance sometimes to deal with mentally, as there is legit a secret hierachy created, which can be an annoyance and definitely shapes my perceptions about dating. I just wonder why at times, as so many humans/people are beautiful. I just don't find it easy sometimes to appreciate so much bias in a sense, as well as it's also just stupid at times, when westerners want darker skin to show they are rich/well-off know it's a beauty thing, as well as simply enjoy the tan! It's sometimes annoying to see lower stages beign heavily impacted by that. For example a couple of my old friends even black said they would not appreciate dating a black skinned girl caus ugly, in simple terms. I find this laughable, and I am the whitestest of them all it's so stupid. 

I don't think it is because of black kids hate themselves, but it is like internalized racism, media showing white people as the beauty standard, white models everywhere, white models on products... There even exists colorism within the community from what I know. So like there are definitely so many messages that you receive on daily basis that programme your mind, but it is not like this shit is the natural state, it is constructed by the white supremacy.

Beauty standards literally affect everyone negatively. I met this really nice girl from Kenya once and she was flirting with me and we had so many common interests and I felt really happy in her presence, but my internalized racism kept telling me she is not attractive, even though I only rarely feel so comfortable with someone who approaches me. And I feel like I realized I liked her too late and she went cold, I wanted to at least be friends but we moved different ways, I regret it to this day. Later on, I actually dated a very dark skinned Indian girl, and my family had like issues with that because they thought interracial cannot work. That also messed me up and my relationship. I was also objectified for being white and people wanted to sleep with me just because I am white, and this is not their fault, because obviously internalized white supremacy, but it sucks for both of us, even though it does suck for them definitely more than for me. Don't gaslight yourself because your skin is lighter, you are definitely onto something here.
 

That is interesting to design such a competition would sound interesting to most I think, as you could design a fair obstacles course for all and then so people would even be more exposed to it on the media under what people deem normal conditions, I mean you have even mixed events in Olympics, I bet you could design a fair competition although it would take time. I would personally just think that is cool and gives people purpose as well as more access to friendships and a shared culture. Like sports and anything included under that umbrella. 

Yes exactly, but of course the cisgender patriarchy will keep it gender segregated because they do not want to listen to ideas from a tranny like me and they will just keep doing shit their obsolete way to make their point about binary gender and oppression clear. I am glad you took your time to understand my point, it is so stupid that people assume that trans girls just want to win in swimming, when maybe we just want to make sports more fair than they are.

Also the idea of restoring black culture is so far off from me here in Germany, maybe in France and England I could not even imagine what that means in terms of Europe in America I can simply see that a majority of them are dominating culture and that has an affect in europe in terms of music and television displaying black americans. Yet we legit have more Africans here, so it's an issue for me personally to relate to others. As cultures are enormously different. 

I meant also just like restoring the cultures in Africa itself, because so many things were stolen by Europe and out into museums in Vatican etc. which is really dumb. And also like Christian colonizers introducing sexual repression to various cultures which made it harder for women of colour especially in so many different cultures, but really for everyone because I know that gender roles influence everyone badly, as they take away from everyone's freedom. But definitely it would be beneficial to learn about different histories from different African countries in Europe too so that people question their biases and the black people can reconnect with their roots more if they so wish.

I can share a personal story of wanting to date a transgender person, she/they then namecalling me and I thought well this is just stupid I am beign very open and vulnerable here and it's beign massively abused. Now I am pretty much confinced to not date transgender women? anymore because I don't believe anyone is healthy enough to keep up with my normal health routine from the transgender women I dated. As well as none of them really have been very spiritual and a lot of them like me? As I seem trans? Because I am "bi-racial" , "bi-national" that already evokes the picture seemingly of openess. It's difficult to not make it about looks and more about character and beign interested in the women, as this can involve a lot of shocking details, I did not know. It's crazy for a heteronormative guy to consider all of these worries. Although interesting! 

No I mean definitely trans girls can totally be racist towards you and I do not want to defend them on that and I do not want to defend myself on anything either. I am trying my best, but you can still tell me if something I am doing makes you uncomfortable. You know trans people are also just people and there are many of them so obviously they are diverse and not all of them will be a good fit for you and some of them may be actually horribly racist. I did not really get the last part of your paragraph here about heteronormativity.

Sharing what I experienced. Find it odd how many free passes I get from transwomen/gender people online. Unsure if bias. Just sharing, would be curious if others have the same experience. And yes it's about the individual! Not the group.

What do you mean by free pass? It definitely is about the individual.

I frankly don't know I would even have to pick myself on things, based on the nuances on the forum sometimes beign ignorant I find it odd at times, that sometimes black people don't receive an answer, as well as seemingly black people don't receive an answer on elaborate writtings etc. I for example prefer using a white picture of smth. I like as it evokes more positive associations for others, as soon as I take a black smth. People are not acting usually as innocent anymore, that would be a "stupid" like chess double standard for me where black begins and white is second for fairness. It's not easy to come up with examples. Also for example when I am with my aunt, my aunt as a white women beign adressed first, when I would be a skinny tall white dude, they would adress me first. It's not easy to describe these perceptions. Anyway I am out! Would take to much time to explain and write it all. It's easier for me to talk about bias, as I mostly engage humans. Although some stuff is just stupid. 

I am sorry that happens to you. If you want, you can report previous occurences of that to me, or reach out to me or message me and I will try to talk to that individual.

Ignorance on this subject is very big and just speaks for "majority/white priviledge" and systemic abuse at times. 

 

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, bejapuskas said:

Yeh, it is hard, but does any of them invalidate you as a person or feel like a personal attack, or make you afraid of sharing who you are or what your perspective is?

Well, not that we are in the same position, but I get death threats and people ridicule, troll, and gaslighting me on a regular basis. To the point that I don't even share some of my deepest insights and ideas.

As a trans person, just like as a public figure, you are just going to have to accept that you will receive harsher treatment and more shit from people than a normie. No platform can save you from that. Holding non-normie positions will get you haters. That's how society has always worked.

We would all be killed for the positions we hold today 100 years ago. So don't take for granted how this stuff works and how serious it is. If you're gonna be on the cutting edge of social evolution you will have to endure a lot more shit than normal people. That's part of the challenge of evolving society. Trans folk will have to endure decades of non-acceptance before they are widely accepted. Because you are asking a billion people to change their minds on very fundamental issues just to accept you. I understand you just want to be accepted, but you must understand why that will not happen as readily as you demand. It's actually nothing personal. You are asking all of civilization to change to accomodate you. That's no easy thing.

Edited November 28, 2022 by Leo Gura

[ValiantSalvatore]

24 minutes ago, bejapuskas said:

I am sorry you feel stereotyped here, I wish people could see you more as a person. I get that, in the Czech Republic, we also laugh at Hitler and it is nothing, because it is like super old and behind us. This one German cried to me when she heard me speaking German because why would I learn such a horrible language and I was like chill it is ok. But I am not justifying invasion of countries, I just think that Germany made progress in this way, but other countries and systems have not, like racism and slavery, so I do not support jokes about them. I did not know Germans were compassionate with Hitler, how so? Any kind of black stereotype is wrong, like even positive ones, because then people see you as like the model minority. People should just be seen as people, without being blind to the experiences they might be uncomfortable with of course. But that is just consent and common decency, or it should be. I think we should make fun of white people more, white people (like myself) are not really taught to see their race as something that plays a role, like in the Czech Republic people say that Roma and White are the same race, which is kind of ass, because they obviously live in totally different realities. It is really problematic to like put people and countries into this spiral dynamics stage model, that is also why I shared the articles about non-Western societies being super politically developed, but the ignorants who should have read them said they are not currently interested, that is what I get for being nice and making suggestions. It does not work, yet they tell me it does, stupid hypocrisy. I don't think it is just you, people here are quite gross and they have so much white fragility in them and they should really like start doing real self reflection work, not just confirming their biases. 

You know I am not black, but I am a trans woman and I feel like black men and trans women of any color have this one similar stereotype associated with them - being perceived as violent threats. So I hope you do not get offended if I say I kind of maybe relate to you at least in this way. I face a lot of shit everyday related to this, and I was very aggressive and I would fight back in the beginning when I came out to myself and others, but at this point I just cannot see people ever changing, so I just deny the possibility to make any influence on them. What I am trying to say is that even though I still face this shit, I suppressed my willingness to fight to a big extent and I just gaslight myself constantly, because it hurts less than trying to hopelessly fight. Do you get what I am saying? I was wondering if your friends are maybe doing this just on like a collective scale, like being aware of what is happening, but like suppressing this things to like keep each other safe from bastard cops etc.? Just something that came to my mind, maybe it is nonsense, but whenever somebody makes you uncomfortable, it is their fault and you are totally real for feeling it. 

Briefly, I enjoy the perspective, race is an invention by Blumenbach we are 99.9% genetically identical. I don't know how good your German is, yet here is a good article. There is also a good book explaining this based on research and other articles pointing to that relative truth. 
https://www.uni-goettingen.de/de/650077.html

100% most humans are in denial about their biases, for their survival agenda and group-think and sheep heard mentality. They are not threatening their need to belong and are incapeable often of including a larger belonging, as the group dynamic changes. 

29 minutes ago, bejapuskas said:

I don't think it is because of black kids hate themselves, but it is like internalized racism, media showing white people as the beauty standard, white models everywhere, white models on products... There even exists colorism within the community from what I know. So like there are definitely so many messages that you receive on daily basis that programme your mind, but it is not like this shit is the natural state, it is constructed by the white supremacy.

Beauty standards literally affect everyone negatively. I met this really nice girl from Kenya once and she was flirting with me and we had so many common interests and I felt really happy in her presence, but my internalized racism kept telling me she is not attractive, even though I only rarely feel so comfortable with someone who approaches me. And I feel like I realized I liked her too late and she went cold, I wanted to at least be friends but we moved different ways, I regret it to this day. Later on, I actually dated a very dark skinned Indian girl, and my family had like issues with that because they thought interracial cannot work. That also messed me up and my relationship. I was also objectified for being white and people wanted to sleep with me just because I am white, and this is not their fault, because obviously internalized white supremacy, but it sucks for both of us, even though it does suck for them definitely more than for me. Don't gaslight yourself because your skin is lighter, you are definitely onto something here.

Yeah, this is so common also the Asian hype-train of white guys chasing asian women, I find this partially disgusting even bi-racial, bi-national people because of white beauty standards and fundamentally Blumenbach, this is why I hate also the term pure philosophy from Leo as it evokes this whitness agenda again in my head. I like all the philosophies in them, I just think the term "pure philosophy" is not good. Because it evokes these old historical concepts, mainly beign focused on "eurocentric white" stuff. I am no expert nor do I have time to dive that deep into this area, and I've been attacked from all sides, that I just focused on beign integral. 

It's funny how I basically clown them, as there are studies showing "bi-racial" faces are more beautiful etc. According to new public perception as it basically became a norm in the 1990's to date interracially. A term that is also not very good imo, as race is an invention. You could say intergenetically, and it's still sorta not good. I just focus on holonic beauty asymmertically and symmertically, there are so many beautiful aspects about an individual. What annoys me is the greed for apprecation for these, even in myself. 
 

33 minutes ago, bejapuskas said:

Yes exactly, but of course the cisgender patriarchy will keep it gender segregated because they do not want to listen to ideas from a tranny like me and they will just keep doing shit their obsolete way to make their point about binary gender and oppression clear. I am glad you took your time to understand my point, it is so stupid that people assume that trans girls just want to win in swimming, when maybe we just want to make sports more fair than they are.

I do believe the core value of this is having a nuclear family without these, it's impossible and you would make evolution a sheer scientific perverse endeavour, having a nuclear family is a good agenda imo. Most humans don't understand drives and needs, listening to Maslow a transgender human can easily evolve like anyone else there are other obstacles that for sure deny needs, for integrating a self-actualization perspective. Most and me included at times are vigilant about corruption, so I dunno the youth is quiet open Gen-Y to alpha and are more acceptant instead of tolerant, the social dynamic although can be quiet bothering ngl. I would like to know more about my biochemsitry to cope at times. I mean I've been raised with gay and lesbian people basically when that was a tabu, and my existence has been a tabu for many. So I get the picture, the point is you are a cultural creative similar to me and everyone else, and some will go against that strain. It's survival unfortunately!

I don't have the time to answer other stuff in depth. Might answer later.


 

[ValiantSalvatore]

32 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

As a trans person, just like as a public figure, you are just going to have to accept that you will receive harsher treatment and more shit from people than a normie. No platform can save you from that. Holding non-normie positions will get you haters. That's how society has always worked.

We would all be killed for the positions we hold today 100 years ago. So don't take for granted how this stuff works and how serious it is. If you're gonna be on the cutting edge of social evolution you will have to endure a lot more shit than normal people. That's part of the challenge of evolving society.

That is true, although I'd have to say it is how society has often worked, I used to get a lot of more shit and I bet a lot of black people to in terms of stereotype threatening that has stopped, it is correct society is evolving and we are part of it. There is more openess, although I find it has to be included with the value of strength/beauty at one point, as seeing others as weak has certainly major pitfalls, like the hyper-masculinity drives of many.

It's funny when I go through RSD content how a transgender person could benefit from that and social engineer society, even from a high leverage point in HCI, yet that would be very high-end anyway. Especially in terms of internal value. Where I also sometimes struggle iwth.

Edited November 28, 2022 by ValiantSalvatore

[Ulax]

@bejapuskas I think you're jumping to conclusions in your most recent reply to me and also the way you seem to me to understand the points I'm making is different from the way I intend for them to be understood.

I'm going to end my discussion on this thread with you here.

[Matt23]

21 hours ago, Tyler Robinson said:

@Thought Art

 

I've been facing some harassment on the forum for some time. I was actually talking about that. 

What about when you "harassed" all the guys on the NNN thread and nothing really happened about it?  You posted stuff like "natural male sexuality is to be horny all the time" and 

On 11/25/2022 at 1:40 AM, Tyler Robinson said:

No Nut Numbember is for immature men aka boys  whereas handling sex like an alpha horny toad is for alpha grown up men.

......?  It seems you also do what you accuse others of doing.  What if some guys here have mental health issues like you say you do, and then see this and feel awful about it?  

 

Also, as a queer person on this forum, I've not once felt anything anti-queer or misogynistic. 

I actually felt quite uplifted and supported when I posted (while doing mdma ... I know, for-shame) about coming to terms with my sexuality.  Lots of support.  From straight white guys too.

As long as people don't use slurs or language that's clearly just plain insulting/demeaning, I think people should be allowed to voice their opinions.  

We won't get nowhere by straight up silencing people just cuz people can't take others' opinions due to their past traumas and pains coming up unconsciously.

Edited November 28, 2022 by Matt23

[Tyler Robinson]

1 minute ago, Matt23 said:

What about when you "harassed" all the guys on the NNN thread and nothing really happened about it?  You posted stuff like "natural male sexuality is to be horny all the time" and 

Lmfao... Expressing opinions is harassing now? I wasn't even trolling. I was simply being adamant on my opinion. Maybe you should look into what harassing means. 

1 minute ago, Matt23 said:

......?  It seems you also do what you accuse others of doing.  What if some guys here have mental health issues like you say you do, and then see this and feel awful about it?  

Didn't I apologize? Did anyone apologize to me though? Does anyone ever apologizes to me? Apology is a sign of humility and acceptance that one did something wrong. At least I act childish and say some hurtful nonsense but I even clean up my act after I realize the truth. People don't make mistakes? 

1 minute ago, Matt23 said:

Also, as a queer person on this forum, I've not once felt anything anti-queer or misogynistic. 

I've felt it all the time 

1 minute ago, Matt23 said:

I actually felt quite uplifted and supported when I posted (while doing mdma ... I know, for-shame) about coming to terms with my sexuality.  Lots of support.  From straight white guys.

As long as people don't use slurs or language that's clearly just plain insulting/demeaning, I think people should be allowed to voice their opinions.  

I have never used slurs. 

1 minute ago, Matt23 said:

We won't get nowhere by straight up silencing people just cuz people can't take others' opinions due to their past traumas and pains coming up unconsciously.

No. We need to be sensitive to other's pain. That's called empathy. If I acted like an asshole I also apologized on the spot. That's called having empathy. 

Learn. 

[Thought Art]

@Tyler Robinson Why are you always engaged with Drama? Do you secretly find it fun?

[Tyler Robinson]

Just now, Thought Art said:

@Tyler Robinson Why are you always engaged with Drama? Do you secretly find it fun?

I just don't see it as drama. I see it as endless curiosity. Difference in perspective. Maybe most people who find me dramatic are just too orderly and disciplined and that's why feel like I'm dramatic in contrast. Rather than dramatic, I'm more chaotic. It gives this false illusion that I love drama. Also my brain is differently wired from most people. I have at least 9 thoughts racing through my mind per minute. It's very difficult to sustain such an unstable brain. When I don't express myself I feel like I'm going insane out of suffocation, that's why I post so much. It's like my brain is on steroids, sometimes I can't sleep because of it. Because the thoughts don't stop. Even if I do meditation, it comes back to that state. 

I think the reason is because I survived a lot of trauma in childhood. That's why my brain went into hyper survival mode and is constantly thinking to keep itself safe. Whenever I shut my brain or close my eyes, my heart rate goes up and I feel like I am being lazy or losing something or something will come and kill me, I become paranoid with fear if my brain is not thinking. 

So my brain goes into hyper thinking mode to feel safe and protected. 

My heart rate jumps whenever I wake up from sleep and I look around with a lot of fear, as though I committed some crime or forgot something that was important and then my brain forces itself to start thinking again. This happens subconsciously without me having any control over it. Like a constant state of hyper anxiety that I'm missing something by not thinking. 

This makes me want to constantly talk, connect, be in charge, spark some conversation to feel like I have some control over my life. It ends up creating a false illusion that I am seeking drama. 

It's just a hyper active mind due to living in survival mode for years 

 

[mr_engineer]

On 11/28/2022 at 0:43 AM, Leo Gura said:

What's missing in your understanding of this issue is that trans is a new topic for 99% of people in society. Their minds have to work to make sense of it. So it's very different from understanding cis gender. But also, the philosophy in the trans issue isn't really about trans people, it's about fundamental questions like what is a man and what is a woman? So yes, we are questioning cis too. And it also takes a lot of work to understand what it means to be a masculine man vs a feminine woman. None of this is obvious or easy.

@bejapuskas Here's my 2 cents on this issue - the root-level solution to transphobia is to question the cis identity. People do struggle with this. Most cis men and women struggle to even build a cis identity to begin with! Let alone question it. 

If you ask me 'Where's the help for trans-people?! That's cis-privilege!', I agree. It is cis-privilege. We don't have our own shit figured out yet. So, it's going to be very difficult for us to help trans-people and all of our help will be riddled with 'benevolent transphobia', so to speak. 

And, I think that trans-people would benefit a lot more from trans role-models than from cis-people actively doing stuff for them. Yeah, fine, cis-people can help you. But, we barely understand the problems that trans-people go through! It's actually very difficult for us to empathize with trans-people. We do not want to be arrogant enough to assume that we know more. And, please excuse our ignorance as it shows here. This is how educating ideologically stubborn adults works. 

Edit - I understand you have an issue with cis people looking at this thing from a cis perspective, being unable to set aside their cis-identity while doing so and being given air-time to do so. Here's the thing - on this forum specifically, the emphasis will be placed on using this air-time to questioning the cis-identity and ignorant perspectives. I think explicit transphobia will be moderated. 

And, the fact that Leo himself is cis and not trans does play into this. The issue is that cis people have literally no experience of being trans. If you just have a problem with being on a forum headed by a cishet white male and those biases showing themselves, which they inevitably will, feel free to start your own community for trans-people! 

Edited November 29, 2022 by mr_engineer

[DocWatts]

Call me a big old Green-ie or what have you, but generally speaking I'm going to advocate for actually listening to people who say that the community has been unwelcoming to them.

We want LGBTQ people to feel welcome and comfortable here, and a big part of that is not assuming that people are being unreasonable when they talk about the ways that this community has been less than welcoming and dismissive of their concerns and life experiences.

[Danioover9000]

@DocWatts

1 hour ago, DocWatts said:

Call me a big old Green-ie or what have you, but generally speaking I'm going to advocate for actually listening to people who say that the community has been unwelcoming to them.

We want LGBTQ people to feel welcome and comfortable here, and a big part of that is not assuming that people are being unreasonable when they talk about the ways that this community has been less than welcoming and dismissive of their concerns and life experiences.

   Don't be a jerk when you are posting, that's it, and also, you are free to leave the forum if you are too triggered and offended. Also, don't be in the forum when you're having a bad day as that can influence your posting style.

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, Danioover9000 said:

@DocWatts

   Don't be a jerk when you are posting, that's it, and also, you are free to leave the forum if you are too triggered and offended. Also, don't be in the forum when you're having a bad day as that can influence your posting style.

Eh, I think he wrote a measured response.

[bejapuskas]

On 27/11/2022 at 10:44 PM, Leo Gura said:

As a trans person, just like as a public figure, you are just going to have to accept that you will receive harsher treatment and more shit from people than a normie. No platform can save you from that. Holding non-normie positions will get you haters. That's how society has always worked.

I guess this kind of helps, but it still does not excuse how little this forum does to include. You cannot just say "this person gets hate in real life, so I will give them more hate so that they realize that they are gonna receive more of it." That is not an excuse for you and other people here to exclude me and others.

We would all be killed for the positions we hold today 100 years ago. So don't take for granted how this stuff works and how serious it is. If you're gonna be on the cutting edge of social evolution you will have to endure a lot more shit than normal people. That's part of the challenge of evolving society. Trans folk will have to endure decades of non-acceptance before they are widely accepted. Because you are asking a billion people to change their minds on very fundamental issues just to accept you. I understand you just want to be accepted, but you must understand why that will not happen as readily as you demand. It's actually nothing personal. You are asking all of civilization to change to accomodate you. That's no easy thing.

Yes, except people here hold the white supremacist view on history that cancels out the fact that queerness was normal historically in so many cultures before it was erased. Cishetero normativity is not actually the norm, it is totally artificial, but maybe you know this?

But thanks, I feel like we are having an actual conversation as two people now.

 

On 27/11/2022 at 11:11 PM, ValiantSalvatore said:

Briefly, I enjoy the perspective, race is an invention by Blumenbach we are 99.9% genetically identical. I don't know how good your German is, yet here is a good article. There is also a good book explaining this based on research and other articles pointing to that relative truth. 
https://www.uni-goettingen.de/de/650077.html

Sorry, I kind of get the main idea of the article, but my German is not good enough.

100% most humans are in denial about their biases, for their survival agenda and group-think and sheep heard mentality. They are not threatening their need to belong and are incapeable often of including a larger belonging, as the group dynamic changes. 

Also the belonging of the people who are the most fragile (cishet white people) is actually not threatened as much. Their lives already matter in our world, except they are like Ukrainian or Russian, there is very little to fight for. And then, even cishet white people would be more free in a world without white supremacy and queerphobia, but we both know that and we discussed this.

Yeah, this is so common also the Asian hype-train of white guys chasing asian women, I find this partially disgusting even bi-racial, bi-national people because of white beauty standards and fundamentally Blumenbach, this is why I hate also the term pure philosophy from Leo as it evokes this whitness agenda again in my head. I like all the philosophies in them, I just think the term "pure philosophy" is not good. Because it evokes these old historical concepts, mainly beign focused on "eurocentric white" stuff. I am no expert nor do I have time to dive that deep into this area, and I've been attacked from all sides, that I just focused on beign integral. 

Definitely pure philosophy and like history, politics etc. too is very European and US centric. There are so many cool philosophies in the world that Leo's channel does not pay attention to, although I enjoyed his Aztec video a lot, it was one of the best for sure, even though I disagree with the idea of unifying spirituality into a uniform one ideology, instead of unifying in terms of unity and acceptance of different practices etc. I think you are definitely onto something big here.

It's funny how I basically clown them, as there are studies showing "bi-racial" faces are more beautiful etc. According to new public perception as it basically became a norm in the 1990's to date interracially. A term that is also not very good imo, as race is an invention. You could say intergenetically, and it's still sorta not good. I just focus on holonic beauty asymmertically and symmertically, there are so many beautiful aspects about an individual. What annoys me is the greed for apprecation for these, even in myself. 

There is definitely that pressure to look cisgender and white, you get a lot of messages every day. I like when youtube like gives me an advertisement where the person speaking is for example a black drag queen, it is a small thing, but it actually shows all the ways people look, not just the one way they think is ideal. I remember as a child when I learned that these people are chosen based on beauty and I at first did not understand it, but later it got internalized and I had to unlearn that shit.
 

I do believe the core value of this is having a nuclear family without these, it's impossible and you would make evolution a sheer scientific perverse endeavour, having a nuclear family is a good agenda imo. Most humans don't understand drives and needs, listening to Maslow a transgender human can easily evolve like anyone else there are other obstacles that for sure deny needs, for integrating a self-actualization perspective. Most and me included at times are vigilant about corruption, so I dunno the youth is quiet open Gen-Y to alpha and are more acceptant instead of tolerant, the social dynamic although can be quiet bothering ngl. I would like to know more about my biochemsitry to cope at times. I mean I've been raised with gay and lesbian people basically when that was a tabu, and my existence has been a tabu for many. So I get the picture, the point is you are a cultural creative similar to me and everyone else, and some will go against that strain. It's survival unfortunately!

It is survival yeh, good luck!
 

 

On 27/11/2022 at 11:19 PM, Ulax said:

@bejapuskas I think you're jumping to conclusions in your most recent reply to me and also the way you seem to me to understand the points I'm making is different from the way I intend for them to be understood.

I'm going to end my discussion on this thread with you here.

Seems like the advocates for having discussions and perseverance do not have enough perseverance and energy to have discussions, well enough. I also just get the sense that I was labelled as proud and stupid and this person just did not change their mind anyways. 

19 hours ago, Matt23 said:

Also, as a queer person on this forum, I've not once felt anything anti-queer or misogynistic. 

Well misogyny is here everyday, but I do agree with you that harassment of males happens a lot and I was also in my life victim blamed for sexual harassment for "being naturally horny," which by the way is an idea that Leo propagates a lot in his videos which is very toxic. Just get rid of all the stereotypes honestly.

I actually felt quite uplifted and supported when I posted (while doing mdma ... I know, for-shame) about coming to terms with my sexuality.  Lots of support.  From straight white guys too.

I am glad you did, but not my experience. Also sexuality and gender are different and I do not feel included in many gay spaces and by many gay people, even though I am also a lesbian.

As long as people don't use slurs or language that's clearly just plain insulting/demeaning, I think people should be allowed to voice their opinions.  

Do you think that somebody should be able to voice the opinion "heterosexuality is the only sexuality that exists?" Did  that ever happen to you on here?

We won't get nowhere by straight up silencing people just cuz people can't take others' opinions due to their past traumas and pains coming up unconsciously.

 

13 hours ago, mr_engineer said:

@bejapuskas Here's my 2 cents on this issue - the root-level solution to transphobia is to question the cis identity. People do struggle with this. Most cis men and women struggle to even build a cis identity to begin with! Let alone question it. 

That is true, but I guess we should still be able to do this here, because like I go through this almost every day and just because they are fragile does not mean they exclusively should have the privilege to remain like this in this space at least, as this space is supposed to value self-exploration and truth.

If you ask me 'Where's the help for trans-people?! That's cis-privilege!', I agree. It is cis-privilege. We don't have our own shit figured out yet. So, it's going to be very difficult for us to help trans-people and all of our help will be riddled with 'benevolent transphobia', so to speak. 

To be honest you do not need to understand anything, just use correct pronouns, don't assume gender and dont use slurs or say things like there is only the binary gender. You really do not need to understand others, I do not fully understand myself either therefore you cannot understand me, because your only source of knowledge about me is me myself. So you're chill  

And, I think that trans-people would benefit a lot more from trans role-models than from cis-people actively doing stuff for them. Yeah, fine, cis-people can help you. But, we barely understand the problems that trans-people go through! It's actually very difficult for us to empathize with trans-people. We do not want to be arrogant enough to assume that we know more. And, please excuse our ignorance as it shows here. This is how educating ideologically stubborn adults works. 

True, but at the same time it is less emotionally draining for cis people (and white people and other people with privilege) to speak up. It is really hard for me to speak up when I am singled out. Sure, we should get role models and representation, but there is stuff that I think is not an issue if cis people do you know? Like speaking up against transphobes, I don't think it is pretentious or savioristic at all. 

Edit - I understand you have an issue with cis people looking at this thing from a cis perspective, being unable to set aside their cis-identity while doing so and being given air-time to do so. Here's the thing - on this forum specifically, the emphasis will be placed on using this air-time to questioning the cis-identity and ignorant perspectives. I think explicit transphobia will be moderated. 

I hope so yes. But what I see now is an echo chamber of cis perspective and trans perspective being silenced. Do you get what I mean? People left this thread because they think I am too proud for wanting inclusion.

And, the fact that Leo himself is cis and not trans does play into this. The issue is that cis people have literally no experience of being trans. If you just have a problem with being on a forum headed by a cishet white male and those biases showing themselves, which they inevitably will, feel free to start your own community for trans-people! 

There is a lot of stuff on the internet they can read about. Leo has read so many books, I think it would only need to read like one book or like one article even about trans inclusion to know all the basic stuff. But I understand, and I get this too, that people are sometimes inclined to trusting actual individuals more than books and I am happy to discuss this. I do not hate cishet men. I have been one for the majority of my life, I know there are struggles to this. Counter-intuitively, I understand cishet male struggles so much, maybe even more than cishet men themselves, because I questioned this identity in the past more than most people.

 

 

3 hours ago, DocWatts said:

Call me a big old Green-ie or what have you, but generally speaking I'm going to advocate for actually listening to people who say that the community has been unwelcoming to them.

Actually, thank you for this. I feel like stage green is like demonized so much here, even though most people on this forum are below it. And like genuine effort to include is demonized as "Social Justice Warrior syndrome" or something, which is also dumb, inclusion is just decency, it should not be demonized.

We want LGBTQ people to feel welcome and comfortable here, and a big part of that is not assuming that people are being unreasonable when they talk about the ways that this community has been less than welcoming and dismissive of their concerns and life experiences.

Thank you.

 

2 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@DocWatts

   Don't be a jerk when you are posting, that's it, and also, you are free to leave the forum if you are too triggered and offended. Also, don't be in the forum when you're having a bad day as that can influence your posting style.

I also think this was a totally ok post and your fragility just got triggered. Look into the mirror and question yourself what made you so triggered in this message about "listening to others." Have other people listened to you in your life? Besides the whole world being centered around your gender identity that means. (I am not trying to be men, I know that cis people also have problems)

 

[Matt23]

20 hours ago, Tyler Robinson said:

Quote

I actually felt quite uplifted and supported when I posted (while doing mdma ... I know, for-shame) about coming to terms with my sexuality.  Lots of support.  From straight white guys.

As long as people don't use slurs or language that's clearly just plain insulting/demeaning, I think people should be allowed to voice their opinions.  

I have never used slurs. 

That wasn't directed towards you.  It was more my general philosophy and guideline for what I think is reasonable rules in public spaces like this.  

20 hours ago, Tyler Robinson said:

Expressing opinions is harassing now?

No, the apostrophes around the word "harassment" were meant to mean that I didn't think it was to the degree that I'd call it harassment.  

20 hours ago, Tyler Robinson said:

I wasn't even trolling. I was simply being adamant on my opinion. Maybe you should look into what harassing means. 

And I guess this is why this whole debate is happening in the first place: what's one person's opinion others deem trolling/bullying/harassment... and people can use all sorts of words to justify their sides and then it ends up being a bunch of people throwing psychological concepts at each other like grenades.  But until we know what was going on directly, it's hard to say what's fair, reasonable, and just.  

It's like shit happens and we gotta deal with it and I just feel triggered, put down, pain... a lot of people do. It seems like it's all a shit show to be real.  All this culture war stuff.   It's like I think most comes from personal issues that then get projected or people react from which reallllllyyyy blows reasonableness and realness out of the water.  (my feelings towards this whole issue in general).   All probably mostly about people trying to feel better within and about themselves.  To feel secure, not attacked or put down etc.

Edited November 29, 2022 by Matt23

[mr_engineer]

54 minutes ago, bejapuskas said:

True, but at the same time it is less emotionally draining for cis people (and white people and other people with privilege) to speak up. It is really hard for me to speak up when I am singled out. Sure, we should get role models and representation, but there is stuff that I think is not an issue if cis people do you know? Like speaking up against transphobes, I don't think it is pretentious or savioristic at all. 

When you say you don't think it's pretentious or savioristic, I agree with you. Having said that, it's very easy to build that kind of reputation in your own in-group when you go against the collective ego of that group and call out transphobia. Because no victim, no crime. And people don't like to admit to the existence of a victim if someone (like a trans-person who has been a victim of transphobia) doesn't claim to be one. 

I'll give a very relatable example. Why is it so hard for a man to call out other men's sexism? Women look at that and they're like 'Just hold other men accountable! Step up and 'be a man'.' It's not that easy. You will build the reputation of a 'simp' among men if you try to 'hold them accountable'. But, women don't get this, cuz they don't understand the bro-code or the point of it. 

I am not trying to discourage your solution in any way, shape or form. It is the right solution, in fact. I'm just showing you the depth of the problem that you're dealing with in cis-dominated spaces.

I believe in your ability to come up with something better to raise awareness about LGBT-issues. Because, and I'm sorry to say this, this responsibility falls on the shoulders of the LGBT-community. It is an unfair deal for you. It's not your fault, it's just the way things are. And, before your ego resists what I'm saying, I'd like you to consider this - most transphobes don't wake up one day and say 'Okay. Should I hate trans-people or should I accept them? What ideology serves me and my community the best? Is it transphobia?! Alright. Transphobia it is.' That's not how a transphobe is made. It is unconsciously conditioned into them and they simply go along with it. Which means, that this is a powerful opportunity for activists (you may or may not put yourself in this category) to educate open-minded cis-people about what it means to be 'trans' and what your lives are like and what rights you lack, etc. 

To someone who really wants to resolve this issue - I'd recommend that you really understand religion and the origins of transphobia. It will help you pick your battles well. And create an impact that actually matters. 

You will need open-minded cis-people on your side. And, I'm showing you how you can do that. HTH!!

[DocWatts]

4 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@DocWatts

   Don't be a jerk when you are posting, that's it, and also, you are free to leave the forum if you are too triggered and offended. Also, don't be in the forum when you're having a bad day as that can influence your posting style.

It's not that people are intentionally trying to be jerks to other people, at least not most of the time. It's more about being unintentionally dismissive of other people's lived experience. It's okay to make mistakes, but at least be willing to listen when someone more intimately aquanted with whatever you've been making assumptions about tells you about thier direct experience.

Edited November 29, 2022 by DocWatts

[Tyler Robinson]

 

When you say that a low IQ person is not allowed in a place then by that logic even black people should not be allowed in a place either because you assume that most black people are low IQ right? 

What happens when you question the validity and intelligence of black people? 

Then you start making theories on it, that black people have low IQ due to  oppression for so many years. 

But at the same time, you try to provide space for them as a collective to thrive. Right? 

Then why can't the same accommodation be given to people who are low IQ as well. 

Like people tell me how I'm low IQ. 

By discriminating against me, aren't you discriminating against black people as well? 

If you care to have acceptance for all racial groups and to afford them dignity, then why do you use isolated traits used to describe those races and then discriminate people based on those traits.

For example you'll call a woman ugly but you won't call a black woman ugly because you think it's racist, but aren't you still practicing some form of discrimination, you just don't want to be caught for it. 

It's like such people who get isolated and discriminated against become the minority of minorities. Can you see that? Since they can't hold enough power because they are not a group

 

[Heart of Space]

Shockingly, there are some legitimate perspectives that offend the progressive thinker.  This is the primary issue with your approach.  

I feel you are a bit overly sensitive and take the forum too seriously.  

You assume hate and prejudice when there is none.  You can't label everything you don't like this way.  

It's fairly clear that you are just another young progressive liberal who can't handle certain opinions.  

You know, I just came out of the closet in a normal way at work the other day.  I've heard one of my coworkers outright use the word fa***** unironically.  These are extremely prejudiced people I work with and they are the leaders of the environment.  I sure hope they don't think like you do, I could end up with an infraction because my 'gayness' is hostile to their feelings.  

Edited November 30, 2022 by Heart of Space