Discrimination on this forum

[bejapuskas]

Hello there,

 

Maybe you remember me as the way too annoying moderator who policed all the disgustingly racist, sexist, queerphobic etc. opinions on this forum. That's me. 

All this time I thought that my actions were in alignment with this forum's values - the forum guidelines clearly say that any kind of discrimination based on any aspect of one's identity is prohibited. Yet, when trying to police people and give out warning points as assigned to me by the guidelines of this forum for inappropriate behavior, I experienced a severe backlash as a moderator because of the members' fragility and absolute inability to reflect and see beyond their view points. 

It started with a lot of people posting about Incel and Jordan Peterson even after it was banned by Leo. (forum guidelines are also written by Leo, but for some reason, those are not taken as seriously as these verbal statements) A lot of girls on this forum felt bad about the Incels and honestly, they were quite disgusting with all the rape apologist speech, victim blaming etc. Truly gross. I thought I could do something and for a moment it even seemed that things have gotten better. But did they really?

All this escalated into bunch of people getting triggered, posting things such as justifications of eugenics, racism, transphobia, primitive views on non-Western societies etc. All of this should be warning points worthy, but for some reason, forum members backlash against this, despite it being clearly stated in the rules that they are supposed to read before joining this forum. Even moderators often times think that certain things people say are not serious enough when they really are. And to be honest, even Leo.

Leo's development towards glorifying this political neutrality, not trying to ever change anything, letting the Incel majority to do so much damage, making this forum inhabitable for anyone with a more heart centered approach to personal development. Leo did once mansplain to me why a certain transphobic thing was not transphobic, even though he himself is not trans I don't think.

And there we have all his videos about how gender is a construct, which should be progressive and changing our mindset towards a more accepting one, but they really don't. Viewers mostly just accept the kind of out-of-world spiritual talk, meditate on it, but they do not actually integrate any of this serious philosophy into their behavior. 

 

Today, I checked Leo's blog, where he posted a video about regretting not trying to change people's mind, because as the video argued, doing that is basically surrendering to authoritarianism of a certain group. (white cishet men) I am glad he finally realized this, after existing as a self-proclaimed wise guru for so many years and claiming he has nothing to learn from reading books anymore. Don't get me wrong, Leo did teach me a lot of stuff, but this is absurd to say from somebody who says they value self-reflection. There is always more to learn, the universe is infinite. 

There was however one thing that I did not agree with in that video, and that is the claim that all societies around the world have always been non-accepting in terms of queerness and other things. That is simply not true. The Native Americans, Black people in Africa, Middle Easterners and many others have had queerness, sexual non-repression, deep spirituality, psychedelics etc. deeply rooted in their culture. You can check this out if you are interested:

https://www.gaytimes.co.uk/life/india-has-always-been-queer-af-we-even-have-a-gay-taj-mahal/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/03/24/how-a-west-african-shaman-helped-my-schizophrenic-son-in-a-way-western-medicine-couldnt/

 

Non-Western societies simply were way more spiritually AND politically developed than Europeans before colonization, but all of this was destroyed by them. Now, on this forum, people often say that Europeans are politically, even though maybe not spiritually, more developed, to claim being more higher up in the Spiral Dynamics development. But even that is just self-deception and racial bias. 

Unless there is a massive change of this forum's dynamic, I am not willing to participate in these harmful discussions. It is not worth my energy to persuade people who are here to idealize Leo, procrastinate high school work, never change their mind or spread discriminatory fascist views. It is just not worth and it is draining and it is painful. 

 

To honor one thing about this forum, it has been quite good in accepting non-offending pedophiles and people with severe intrusive thoughts, as I have many times seen in the serious mental health issues section of this forum. But it is necessary to add that the tolerance of mental illness was in my experience mostly seen in cisgender men who claimed to have mental health issues, while women were blamed for having them, and also all other things and basically just existing here. 

Let me know what you all think about this and if you think same, different, whatever you have to add.

[Leo Gura]

It is not so easy to draw a line between transphobia vs people questioning / having philosophical disagreements on trans topics.

Trans people have a tendency to consider any questioning or philosophical disagreements about gender issues to be transphobia, which is not the case. Then genuine transphobes exploit this loophole. So here we are.

Here's my question to you: Do you consider Joe Rogan a transphobe?

Edited November 27, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Carl-Richard]

There comes a point where your ideology is so far removed from the majority of the forum that it makes no sense to enforce it with warning points. I think you ran into that problem especially with transphobia, and if you as a transperson feel more personally affected by that, that's of course a shame. However, my feeling is that you can go a long way by looking at the format of the engagement and the emotional tone and see that it's not one of bigotry or resentment, but rather intellectual honesty and openness, and that this is something that should factor in into an assessment of a "phobia". Because from what I saw you doing, it came from a more abstract/ideological place than that. But yes, it's also good to have someone who is unapologetic about expressing their sensitivities and representing those who could need a voice, and as you say, we can discuss that here.

[ValiantSalvatore]

I like all of these topics, it's just sometimes impossible to talk about this openly without an expert coming up with factual data and historical data, that is not skewed in anyway and being open about the possibilities. I left the forum basically for 2 years because of discrimination subtley and tracked the accounts and they got banned. I recentely just posted in my journal some discriminating stuff, as it was playing in my mind and one person I presume also got banned for promoting this kind of discrimination. I do believe most of these conversations should be held in a manner of acceptance and openness and not rationality and truth seeking, to simply implore and explain the concepts often. 

For example I know and meet sometimes a lot of homosexual people and my aunt is homosexual, so I know the dynamic basically since birth, so I am not the traditional cishet man (cis-gender hetero) . Then considering spiral dynamics and beign fair and accepting I don't sometimes see the level of development appropriate and there are a lot of resentments I don't fully understand, for example I still believe a white homosexual women has more priviledges than a black hetero male in our society, just by sheer observation and knowing my aunt etc. I don't believe she as well as other homosexual men/women are nearly as often discriminated as me as a black person for example in Europe. I for example am beign discriminated by immigrants based on their development seeing me as a "dumb african" when I am German-American and black and white. As a lot of religious cultures are of very early and low development and act morally superior, which I frankly don't like which makes modernity and neutrality as well as rationality again very important. This is missing from the left. Acceptance and rationality basically without the social justice warrior resentment as they are usually the higher stage of development!

When a person is white and benefits from the majority priveledge and a lot of people simply enjoy the energy of homosexual people (me included), it's just sometimes very obvious, how hard I need to modulate myself to a culture I simply don't resonate with. Rock music, a lot of beer, a discriminatory history and then to love it all! Is super-counter intutive and frankly even if I can love it. I find it horrifyingly boring. Then when they modulate to what I resonate with within my culture for example rap  music, black history and culture in America, discrimination and even just global history and development. 

Mostly these topics involve vulnerabillity and resistance (grit), people would need to share stories and even simple things, as people avoiding to touch your hand, as they believe your skin is dirty and stuff like this. 

I find colorblind racism by far way way way worse, currently, if you are a person of color discrimination is basically 10x applied regardless if homo/hetero/non-binary etc. This also goes for immigration and immigrants, and I never witnessed also so much arrogance from immigrants regardless of which country. It's insane. I would like to know why.

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Here's my question to you: Do you consider Joe Rogan a transphobe?

From what I saw from him I don't think so, he is just intersted in fairness and the "ethics" that govern trans people, as he just loves all people he might say something stupid. It's like saying is Joe Rogan racist? Because he said the n-word and he loves black people imo, it's simply bad timing and all humans are vulnerable. It potentially was to much at the given time. I don't find it funny anymore either. I prefer watching Dave Chapelle or smth. 

It would be more interesting how trans people can shape society in a way where it is less discriminatory for them, as well as a lot of cishet men to consider their priviledges and reach out to others. Practically, this won't happen as people conform a lot to a fear morality. Which centeres around stage orange/blue, so their are open and neutral about it, and tolerate it as well as conform ethnocentrism, the appreciation and diversity of it simply is missing. In a more holistic perspective Joe Rogan airs a lot of bullshit that a single trans person can do for example in Olympics to destroy fairness, I mean if you get two humans of different genders, biologically and biochemically to a similar level it might be fair, yet for a biological male to have an advantage in physical strengths, even without beign a scientist it's obvious this is true. 

I dunno aired my opinion, for example I don't like to feel grouped in this minority spectrum of beign a symbol for diversity because of my phenotypical expression, yet there is nothing I can do about it. It's annyoing. We could share examples of discriminations even smaller ones to make it more evident, to simply reduce bias. 

To add a little more without these conversation stigmas, and bigotry would not be revealed, as well as solutions should be the orientation of these discussions at best multiple. I am no saint, double-standards should definitely be discussed. I also believe the forum is moderated very well, although there are some nuances, where I'd love more transparency. I witnssed a lot of double-standards, so yeah that could definitely be a good talking point/juxtaposition. 

Having multiple judges is great also. 

Edited November 27, 2022 by ValiantSalvatore

[aurum]

3 hours ago, bejapuskas said:

Let me know what you all think about this and if you think same, different, whatever you have to add.

I agree the forum needs to be vigilant against bigotry. I was a moderator here for a while and basically you just have to use your best judgment what is or isn’t okay. There’s no training for something like this, and even if there was, it would still be a challenge.

Where do you draw the line between a disagreement and a rule violation? That is the question.

Specifically, it seems like your biggest critique is on LGBTQA+ issues. And that the mod team + Leo has not been vigilant enough on checking homophobia, transphobia etc.

Personally, I think the forum is generally well moderated. Which doesn’t mean you won’t have issues of bigotry at times. But on the whole, I feel it does pretty well. Misogyny is probably the most common form of bigotry I see.

There is an additional challenge here, which is that the entire point of Actualized.org is questioning reality, assumptions, bias and self-deception. It is meant to be non-ideological. No one’s ideology gets a pass. And that includes SJW Green type of thinking. 

If you’re not willing to question SJW narratives at least somewhat, that you should tell you that you’re no longer serving the truth. You’re serving something else.

It’s easy to feel good about being non-ideological until it’s your ideology’s turn on the chopping block.

But of course, we also need to distinguish between questioning and bigotry. Especially since bigotry can cloak itself under the guise of questioning. This is a real challenge.

Bigotry itself is also an ideology that needs to be questioned. If you question your bigotry deep enough, you will cease to be a bigot because it’s based on self-deception and bias. Which is what Actualized.org is suppose to help with.

Edited November 27, 2022 by aurum

[bejapuskas]

14 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

It is not so easy to draw a line between transphobia vs people questioning / having philosophical disagreements on trans topics.

Trans people have a tendency to consider any questioning or philosophical disagreements about gender issues to be transphobia, which is not the case. Then genuine transphobes exploit this loophole. So here we are.

Here's my question to you: Do you consider Joe Rogan a transphobe?

Leo, but it is always only the trans people who are being questioned. The cis gender never gets questioned here, or if I did, I would be labelled a clown, whereas if you question the trans, it is somehow a "serious philosophical debate." There is a clear double standard there. You might say that this did not exist in our society before, so we need to question it, but it did exist in so many societies before, people just are not educated about that, it got destroyed and suppressed. So if you are arguing this, you are being both transphobic and racist, because you are putting a double standard on genders and cultures which are in reality equally valid. There is no philosophical evidence you can provide to prove that some genders or cultures are less valid than others, what does that even mean?

Just for your info, I don't know if you noticed this, but some member here who already had so many warnings from the past started a thread about "Serious discussion on race," where he argued about how black people are less intelligent. This thread kept running for multiple days without being shut down. This forum is not well moderated at all and it is really laughable that you think serious discussions are happening on this forum. It looks like the Nazis discussing.

13 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

There comes a point where your ideology is so far removed from the majority of the forum that it makes no sense to enforce it with warning points. I think you ran into that problem especially with transphobia, and if you as a transperson feel more personally affected by that, that's of course a shame. However, my feeling is that you can go a long way by looking at the format of the engagement and the emotional tone and see that it's not one of bigotry or resentment, but rather intellectual honesty and openness, and that this is something that should factor in into an assessment of a "phobia". Because from what I saw you doing, it came from a more abstract/ideological place than that. But yes, it's also good to have someone who is unapologetic about expressing their sensitivities and representing those who could need a voice, and as you say, we can discuss that here.

So you are going to ignore a perspective or call it too far removed to keep me from posting about it? Even if that perspective is perhaps more truthful than what other members are proposing? You know, I don't see this as a serious commitment to truth, more like serious commitment to censorship and comforting fragile cishet white people who get so sad for receiving warning points for seriously offending someone. 

I as a trans person would feel better if I did not have to always be the one giving warning points for this, or putting literally any effort at all. There are other forum members who try, but it is really the minority. 

I am sorry to disappoint you, but the tone is not of intellectual honesty. Maybe you just do not see all of the posts that I am seeing, or you see them differently, maybe you have the privilege of not getting as emotionally affected. I am glad you feel safe here. But there are people, and please stop denying this, because I know this, who really are not here for serious philosophy. This guy who argued about black people being less intelligent for example kept pulling out different studies that proved him right while ignoring colonization, environmental factors, impoverishment etc. He really was not trying to change his mind or stay open to others. You might say this person was trying to "argue as best as he could with his strongest arguments," but these Nazi studies and racism cannot be a justifiable way to argue about something, it just cannot. 

Thank you for the last sentence you wrote. Unfortunately, most people like that already left. People drove them insane.

13 hours ago, ValiantSalvatore said:

I like all of these topics, it's just sometimes impossible to talk about this openly without an expert coming up with factual data and historical data, that is not skewed in anyway and being open about the possibilities. I left the forum basically for 2 years because of discrimination subtley and tracked the accounts and they got banned. I recentely just posted in my journal some discriminating stuff, as it was playing in my mind and one person I presume also got banned for promoting this kind of discrimination. I do believe most of these conversations should be held in a manner of acceptance and openness and not rationality and truth seeking, to simply implore and explain the concepts often. 

For example I know and meet sometimes a lot of homosexual people and my aunt is homosexual, so I know the dynamic basically since birth, so I am not the traditional cishet man (cis-gender hetero) . Then considering spiral dynamics and beign fair and accepting I don't sometimes see the level of development appropriate and there are a lot of resentments I don't fully understand, for example I still believe a white homosexual women has more priviledges than a black hetero male in our society, just by sheer observation and knowing my aunt etc. I don't believe she as well as other homosexual men/women are nearly as often discriminated as me as a black person for example in Europe. I for example am beign discriminated by immigrants based on their development seeing me as a "dumb african" when I am German-American and black and white. As a lot of religious cultures are of very early and low development and act morally superior, which I frankly don't like which makes modernity and neutrality as well as rationality again very important. This is missing from the left. Acceptance and rationality basically without the social justice warrior resentment as they are usually the higher stage of development!

No, I mean fully, I think that racism here is worse than the queerphobia here. Some of the shit I saw was insane and I really don't want to deny anything you experienced. Also, you can be both black and queer, or biracial and queer, which is also really hard. 

When a person is white and benefits from the majority priveledge and a lot of people simply enjoy the energy of homosexual people (me included), it's just sometimes very obvious, how hard I need to modulate myself to a culture I simply don't resonate with. Rock music, a lot of beer, a discriminatory history and then to love it all! Is super-counter intutive and frankly even if I can love it. I find it horrifyingly boring. Then when they modulate to what I resonate with within my culture for example rap  music, black history and culture in America, discrimination and even just global history and development. 

I don't think you need to love it, it is not fair towards you in any way, German culture is based on so many lies and prejudices. 

Mostly these topics involve vulnerabillity and resistance (grit), people would need to share stories and even simple things, as people avoiding to touch your hand, as they believe your skin is dirty and stuff like this. 

I find colorblind racism by far way way way worse, currently, if you are a person of color discrimination is basically 10x applied regardless if homo/hetero/non-binary etc. This also goes for immigration and immigrants, and I never witnessed also so much arrogance from immigrants regardless of which country. It's insane. I would like to know why.

I think it comes from people with privilege, those from the group of majority race, ethnicity, religion etc. of these countries being fragile and irrationally afraid. It is really stupid this double standard. Ukrainian white immigrants being accepted, while Ukrainian Roma being looked down upon. I don't even know, white saviorism comes into play every day on the Slovakia borders.

From what I saw from him I don't think so, he is just intersted in fairness and the "ethics" that govern trans people, as he just loves all people he might say something stupid. It's like saying is Joe Rogan racist? Because he said the n-word and he loves black people imo, it's simply bad timing and all humans are vulnerable. It potentially was to much at the given time. I don't find it funny anymore either. I prefer watching Dave Chapelle or smth. 

I think he gives too much platform to people who have backwards gender ideologies, but I know at one point he corrected a person on saying a transphobic slur, which made me happy, that he as a person with privilege who is not as emotionally affected by putting this emotional labor to this is capable of calling somebody out, and I think it worked in that context. Notice how people with privilege, and this goes back to slavery, are expecting people without privilege to do all this activism work for them, to shape themselves so that they are not as offensive, not as visible etc. It is gross, the spirit of slavery is still alive in them.

It would be more interesting how trans people can shape society in a way where it is less discriminatory for them, as well as a lot of cishet men to consider their priviledges and reach out to others. Practically, this won't happen as people conform a lot to a fear morality. Which centeres around stage orange/blue, so their are open and neutral about it, and tolerate it as well as conform ethnocentrism, the appreciation and diversity of it simply is missing. In a more holistic perspective Joe Rogan airs a lot of bullshit that a single trans person can do for example in Olympics to destroy fairness, I mean if you get two humans of different genders, biologically and biochemically to a similar level it might be fair, yet for a biological male to have an advantage in physical strengths, even without beign a scientist it's obvious this is true. 

I also think it is impossible to restore black culture without restoring gender, because for example this Nigerian Igbo religion has gender queer deities, and so we cannot just ignore gender while fighting racism and colonialism. 

I am also one of those people who thinks that like inherently, splitting people into gendered teams and even individuals is unfair. Trans girls are not unfair because they are biologically male or because they are trans. It is essentially because they are physically stronger. Therefore I think we should just have competitions and sports based purely on competence - there can be a weak, not so sportsy trans girl like me, who does mostly yoga and dancing, and maybe I could compete with the weaker men and medium strength cis women. I don't think it is gender discrimination against trans women if gender becomes not a thing at all and it is just about competence. It would also include the non-binary genders more. It is funny how transphobia, fragility and fear is clouding everyone's mind in a way that they never think about this, even though it is not even that profound of a thought, making people compete based on competence rather than gender. 

I dunno aired my opinion, for example I don't like to feel grouped in this minority spectrum of beign a symbol for diversity because of my phenotypical expression, yet there is nothing I can do about it. It's annyoing. We could share examples of discriminations even smaller ones to make it more evident, to simply reduce bias. 

You can share it here, I already shared some of my experiences. I will do my best to moderate if anyone who comes to this thread tries o invalidate your experiences.

To add a little more without these conversation stigmas, and bigotry would not be revealed, as well as solutions should be the orientation of these discussions at best multiple. I am no saint, double-standards should definitely be discussed. I also believe the forum is moderated very well, although there are some nuances, where I'd love more transparency. I witnssed a lot of double-standards, so yeah that could definitely be a good talking point/juxtaposition. 

I actually do not believe this forum is moderated well, I have just seen too much shit to still believe this. What double standards have you seen?

Having multiple judges is great also. 

 

13 hours ago, aurum said:

I agree the forum needs to be vigilant against bigotry. I was a moderator here for a while and basically you just have to use your best judgment what is or isn’t okay. There’s no training for something like this, and even if there was, it would still be a challenge.

Where do you draw the line between a disagreement and a rule violation? That is the question.

You can look at my response to Leo, there is my answer. I think it is pretty clear.

Specifically, it seems like your biggest critique is on LGBTQA+ issues. And that the mod team + Leo has not been vigilant enough on checking homophobia, transphobia etc.

I actually think racism is more wide-spread here, but both are bad. They should not be here at all ideally. As I mentioned in my response to Leo, I don't actually believe that, there have been actual neo-nazi rhetorics going on here without being moderated for days.

Personally, I think the forum is generally well moderated. Which doesn’t mean you won’t have issues of bigotry at times. But on the whole, I feel it does pretty well. Misogyny is probably the most common form of bigotry I see.

It happens every day, not at times.

There is an additional challenge here, which is that the entire point of Actualized.org is questioning reality, assumptions, bias and self-deception. It is meant to be non-ideological. No one’s ideology gets a pass. And that includes SJW Green type of thinking. 

But in this case, what you call SJW is actually calling out more serious bullshit ideologies like eugenics. Can you not see that?

If you’re not willing to question SJW narratives at least somewhat, that you should tell you that you’re no longer serving the truth. You’re serving something else.

I think I do my best to like find nuances in the SJW ideology which I do not agree with, check my other responses for what I mean.

It’s easy to feel good about being non-ideological until it’s your ideology’s turn on the chopping block.

Do you question your ideology? 

But of course, we also need to distinguish between questioning and bigotry. Especially since bigotry can cloak itself under the guise of questioning. This is a real challenge.

Again, I think it is quite clear and unless somebody with privilege is denying or deciding to overlook an aspect of discrimination that is happening here, it is really easy to see. Definitely the users themselves see themselves as non-ideological seekers of truth, but they are just using obsolete racist studies.

Bigotry itself is also an ideology that needs to be questioned. If you question your bigotry deep enough, you will cease to be a bigot because it’s based on self-deception and bias. Which is what Actualized.org is suppose to help with.

I don't think equality of people is an ideology. I don't think it should be questioned. I am not proposing that we become race-blind here, it's just that what you are saying is really serious and people die every day, because they have this ideology that some people matter less, just because they do not look like you.

 

[Leo Gura]

What's missing in your understanding of this issue is that trans is a new topic for 99% of people in society. Their minds have to work to make sense of it. So it's very different from understanding cis gender. But also, the philosophy in the trans issue isn't really about trans people, it's about fundamental questions like what is a man and what is a woman? So yes, we are questioning cis too. And it also takes a lot of work to understand what it means to be a masculine man vs a feminine woman. None of this is obvious or easy.

As far as that thread questioning black IQ, the thread was almost immediately locked by our Mods. Then I intentionly reversed the lock because I wanted to seriously engage the issue without simply shutting it down. We engaged the guy and it soon became clear to everyone that he had no good arguments or science to back up his claims. I think such discussions are much more fruitful and presuasive than just banning people or calling them racists. We had a good faith discussion. The guy was arguing in good faith, he wasn't just using racial slurs. Such people must be engaged in discussion. I am proud of that particular discussion.

Edited November 27, 2022 by Leo Gura

[bejapuskas]

That does not change anything about there being a double standard that is harmful. People like me are getting killed because of who we are. How long do you want to keep providing a safe space for those who are the perpetrators in this situation? You know, maybe you are trying to find some rationality in this violence, but violence does not have a rationality, so you can keep doing this to infinity. Cis people get questioned too, but it is not at all as serious, they get protection from peers, we don't, especially not on this forum, we are seriously othered. 

I did not actually notice the person changing their mind but ok.

[Ulax]

@bejapuskas

I think you make some valid points, and some invalid points.

It sounds to me like you are feeling angry because you want equality and respect on this platform. Is that right?

I think guidelines could be enforced better.

I think as a moderator backlash against your actions from users you moderator is to be expected and is part of the job. Your feelings about it are valid, but as a moderator you should find a way to manage your emotions, imo.

I think your take on some societies being accepting of things like queerness, non sexual repression is true.

I think this view 'Non-Western societies simply were way more spiritually AND politically developed than Europeans before colonization, but all of this was destroyed by them' is wrong. I think the spirituality came from stage purple societies in terms of their spiritual advancement. And I don't think its true that they were that politically developed. Also, I think Western Europe and North America are the most politically developed continents overall in the world, and I think its naive to think otherwise. Their spiral development is higher overall than generally any other region in the world.

I think you're correct about their being a lot of mysogyny on this platform.

Overall, I think you're very stage green in this critique. With that, I think your opinions here lacks systemic thinking, which would be a higher consciousness way to approach the issue.

A key thing with actualized.org, imo, is that its setup to appeal to lots of stages, including male red. So, there will be male red on the forum. Is it dumb af? Yes. Is it understandable? Yes. I think the red people could be managed better on here tho.

Also, speaking plainly, I doubt that you understand how to effectively persuade lower stages. If my assumption is right, I also struggle with it. Imo, people aren't persuaded by truth, they are persuaded by what meets their needs. So, a mysognist isn't a mysogynist because they hate women, they are a mysogynist because being one meets their needs at their stage of development. If there was some other belief that met their need then they would be that instead. Maybe it meets their need for significance to be a mysogynist. And when you critique them you threaten the meeting of that need, and so they push back against you and demonise you. Why? Because it meets their need at their stage of development.  I also doubt, imo, whether you have the self awareness that you are simply meeting needs all the time. The difference being your needs meeting is more psychological developed than lower stages. I struggle with being self aware of my needs meeting quite often myself.

Edited November 27, 2022 by Ulax

[Carl-Richard]

46 minutes ago, bejapuskas said:

So you are going to ignore a perspective or call it too far removed to keep me from posting about it? Even if that perspective is perhaps more truthful than what other members are proposing? You know, I don't see this as a serious commitment to truth, more like serious commitment to censorship and comforting fragile cishet white people who get so sad for receiving warning points for seriously offending someone. 

The "point" that is going too far is for example giving somebody warning points for merely stating what they think a woman or a man is. If it's not said with the intention to troll or offend, I think that is a no-go zone for warning points, and I saw you go into that zone. We should strive to keep the discussions informed by sensitivity, but that particular level of enforcement makes discussions impossible. At that level, discussion is only possible if everybody is already in agreement.

Edited November 27, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[Guest Tobia]

@bejapuskas It is likely that your definition of "safe space" is impossible to find in our current society.

It is like saying "I will only feel safe when the entire society is progressive and stage green". Good luck. You may have to wait 500 years.

Most of the world is brutal, unfair, unsafe and it will continue to be so for a long time. 

There is still a long way to go but, If you live in the US or Europe, you already won the lottery in terms of safety for trans people. 

[Leo Gura]

33 minutes ago, bejapuskas said:

That does not change anything about there being a double standard that is harmful. People like me are getting killed because of who we are. How long do you want to keep providing a safe space for those who are the perpetrators in this situation? You know, maybe you are trying to find some rationality in this violence, but violence does not have a rationality, so you can keep doing this to infinity. Cis people get questioned too, but it is not at all as serious, they get protection from peers, we don't, especially not on this forum, we are seriously othered.

You're lacking in nuance.

If someone here is making threats of violence or using hateful slurs, they def get moderated.

But if someone is just stating their philosophical position, that is legitamate, even if you don't like it.

If hate speech is not being used and someone is presenting good-faith arguments, then I consider it fair for this forum.

This is the point at which I do stand for free speech. This forum cannot just be a political echo-chamber.

Quote

I did not actually notice the person changing their mind but ok.

It's not necessairly about changing his mind, but about have discussions and people watch and learn.

Edited November 27, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Tyler Robinson]

@Leo Gura Are mods about protecting users or not? 

Just answer that question plain and simple. 

 

[BeHereNow]

16 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Trans people have a tendency to consider any questioning or philosophical disagreements about gender issues to be transphobia, which is not the case. Then genuine transphobes exploit this loophole. So here we are.

I've been guilty of this, I've even spat my dummy out and left this forum for a time when I perceived some on here for being transphobic. I've done some serious growing up since then and made attempts to be more understanding of others questions and sincere concerns.

But to give you a perceptive of someone who is transgender, it can be anxiety inducing when political pundits, tabloids and governments play around with trans culture war like a soccer ball. We're at this stage where a lot of society is accepting but a good chunk isn't either and if one day society as a whole just decides they don't like this transgender stuff at all, they can honestly get rid of it quite easily, quickly and quietly, we're that small of a demographic. There wouldn't that much pushback either because understandably most people have bigger priorities than the lives of trans people, even if they are allies. It's anxiety inducing because if gender affirming services are made illegal or I'm forced to detransition by the state, it's something that will probably drive me to suicide in the worst case scenario. The best case my life would be unhappier and dysfunctional. It's hard to explain gender dysphoria to a cis person, but living and being socialized as a male is so repulsive to me that it feels harmful to the body and psyche. Imagine if a misandrist government decided the existence of men was illegal and they forced you (Leo) to transition into a woman both socially and medically, even though you know deep down in your soul you are a Man, it would give you severe dysphoria to the point it would cause damage. You would probably feel suicidal too.

There is an argument to say this is an exaggerated fear of my many transgender people, but when you have popular figures like Jordan Peterson, JK Rowling and Matt Walsh nonstop fear mongering about us with a clear agenda to get rid of us of someway, you can see why many people like me can't stomach any debates about transgenderism that can be slightly touchy. We are still in vulnerable position so to speak.

[LordFall]

@Tyler Robinson I don't understand this point about protection. You cannot be afraid of a perspective or a viewpoint if you're trying to discuss sensitive issues and important things. It will by nature be uncomfortable and hurtful, from every side. Personal attacks and other such forms of violence should be stopped but if anything falls into just being an opinion I don't think it's something we should aim to moderate. 

[Tyler Robinson]

2 hours ago, LordFall said:

Personal attacks and other such forms of violence should be stopped but if anything falls into just being an opinion I don't think it's something we should aim to moderate. 

Some mods don't understand this. So first I need a confirmation from Leo and then I will move on to the mods 

Because it seems some mods just don't get it, yeah! 

I'm glad the mod opened this topic but notice how she is going to be gaslighted throughout this thread. I feel truly sorry for the OP. 

She is mod on a wrong forum apparently. 

 

Edited November 27, 2022 by bejapuskas

[bejapuskas]

3 hours ago, Ulax said:

@bejapuskas

I think you make some valid points, and some invalid points.

It sounds to me like you are feeling angry because you want equality and respect on this platform. Is that right?

I think guidelines could be enforced better.

I think as a moderator backlash against your actions from users you moderator is to be expected and is part of the job. Your feelings about it are valid, but as a moderator you should find a way to manage your emotions, imo.

That's a fair point. I too have my limits though, I used to be much nicer, did not work.

I think your take on some societies being accepting of things like queerness, non sexual repression is true.

Read the articles and watch the video from the OP. 

I think this view 'Non-Western societies simply were way more spiritually AND politically developed than Europeans before colonization, but all of this was destroyed by them' is wrong. I think the spirituality came from stage purple societies in terms of their spiritual advancement. And I don't think its true that they were that politically developed. Also, I think Western Europe and North America are the most politically developed continents overall in the world, and I think its naive to think otherwise. Their spiral development is higher overall than generally any other region in the world.

Watch the videos and read the articles I sent with the original post, you are not seeing the full reality. You are coming from a place of talking about history under the colonizer lens, your education system actually brainwashed you into this.

Overall, I think you're very stage green in this critique. With that, I think your opinions here lacks systemic thinking, which would be a higher consciousness way to approach the issue.

I think I can see how this is a systemic of this forum's guidelines not being enforced enough, but also an issue of systemic racism, colonization etc. What do you think systemic thinking is, how would you approach it?

Also, speaking plainly, I doubt that you understand how to effectively persuade lower stages. If my assumption is right, I also struggle with it. Imo, people aren't persuaded by truth, they are persuaded by what meets their needs. So, a mysognist isn't a mysogynist because they hate women, they are a mysogynist because being one meets their needs at their stage of development. If there was some other belief that met their need then they would be that instead. Maybe it meets their need for significance to be a mysogynist. And when you critique them you threaten the meeting of that need, and so they push back against you and demonise you. Why? Because it meets their need at their stage of development.  I also doubt, imo, whether you have the self awareness that you are simply meeting needs all the time. The difference being your needs meeting is more psychological developed than lower stages. I struggle with being self aware of my needs meeting quite often myself.

I tried to persuade lower stages before, it just does not make any difference, trust me. I have so much experience trying to persuade people around me, my parents for example, it just does not make a difference. If I speak to them nicely, open myself emotionally as thye want me as parents, the next day all progress is gone. I tried doing this on this forum too, did not work, hate to break it to you. Maybe you can try persuading people nicely some day without sucking up to them and see if you succeed, maybe you will. 

 

3 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

The "point" that is going too far is for example giving somebody warning points for merely stating what they think a woman or a man is. If it's not said with the intention to troll or offend, I think that is a no-go zone for warning points, and I saw you go into that zone. We should strive to keep the discussions informed by sensitivity, but that particular level of enforcement makes discussions impossible. At that level, discussion is only possible if everybody is already in agreement.

I value protecting my mental health and the mental health of members higher than tolerating low consciousness. It is just a small warning on an internet forum, and I have actually deleted so many of the warnings I have given out to people after they have shown improvement, even though many times that was a mistake and they were just faking showing improvement. Maybe you overlooked that part? I feel like giving this warning pushes my point and if I see the person actually trying to get better, then I do something. It makes me mad that people get warning points for using a mean tone with somebody, but invalidating somebody's identity is not policed.

 

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

You're lacking in nuance.

And you are projecting. You are really downplaying my understanding and thinking you know me, when you do not. Do you think I as a trans person who exists as a trans person really do not understand that people are low consciousness? Trust me I do and I have a lot of trauma around that. Maybe you assume I don't? I tried being nice to people in real life and also on here, but it never works unless they are already open minded and show sensitivity and willingness to learn from me.

If someone here is making threats of violence or using hateful slurs, they def get moderated.

Thanks, but verbal violence is also a thing.

But if someone is just stating their philosophical position, that is legitamate, even if you don't like it.

How is it legitimate, if it is based on non-serious philosophy? I don't understand how you giving points to people and locking threads you consider spiritually undeveloped is any less conscious than people saying penis = man, vagina = woman. It just sounds so dumb to me. And maybe you can live in your world of theoretical philosophy and question these labels, but then still go into the real world, benefit from presenting a certain way, being a certain way, but other people live their questioning and that is a completely different commitment to truth and self-understanding and self-expression.

If hate speech is not being used and someone is presenting good-faith arguments, then I consider it fair for this forum.

Often times when you question these good faith arguments, hate speech begins, so I would rather not. But if you want to get into that, please do, I would appreciate you calling out people and wasting your precious time.

This is the point at which I do stand for free speech. This forum cannot just be a political echo-chamber.

It is really sad how much this forum and your Actualized.org downplays these issues. There is so much room for finding life purpose in fighting these oppressive systems, building support systems for oppressed people. Knowing about discrimination and history can help you do any job in the world better, just by knowing these inequalities and thinking about how to create a safe space. The forum I see now is an unsafe space that does not really support truth-seeking. We could instead have a more political forum that empowers oppressed people to find life purpose that is actually targetted at serious issues in the world, I would see that as way more impactful. We need more anti-racist anti-transphobic people in every profession.

It's not necessairly about changing his mind, but about have discussions and people watch and learn.

There are better ways to learn. We can intentionally learn about racial issues and gender instead of throwing around offensive threads, getting triggered in the process etc. 

 

2 hours ago, BeHereNow said:

I've been guilty of this, I've even spat my dummy out and left this forum for a time when I perceived some on here for being transphobic. I've done some serious growing up since then and made attempts to be more understanding of others questions and sincere concerns.

But to give you a perceptive of someone who is transgender, it can be anxiety inducing when political pundits, tabloids and governments play around with trans culture war like a soccer ball. We're at this stage where a lot of society is accepting but a good chunk isn't either and if one day society as a whole just decides they don't like this transgender stuff at all, they can honestly get rid of it quite easily, quickly and quietly, we're that small of a demographic. There wouldn't that much pushback either because understandably most people have bigger priorities than the lives of trans people, even if they are allies. It's anxiety inducing because if gender affirming services are made illegal or I'm forced to detransition by the state, it's something that will probably drive me to suicide in the worst case scenario. The best case my life would be unhappier and dysfunctional. It's hard to explain gender dysphoria to a cis person, but living and being socialized as a male is so repulsive to me that it feels harmful to the body and psyche. Imagine if a misandrist government decided the existence of men was illegal and they forced you (Leo) to transition into a woman both socially and medically, even though you know deep down in your soul you are a Man, it would give you severe dysphoria to the point it would cause damage. You would probably feel suicidal too.

There is an argument to say this is an exaggerated fear of my many transgender people, but when you have popular figures like Jordan Peterson, JK Rowling and Matt Walsh nonstop fear mongering about us with a clear agenda to get rid of us of someway, you can see why many people like me can't stomach any debates about transgenderism that can be slightly touchy. We are still in vulnerable position so to speak.

Thank you, this is really well said. I hope you stay safe and if you ever need support regarding transitioning, you can reach out. I'm here.

 

2 hours ago, LordFall said:

@Tyler Robinson I don't understand this point about protection. You cannot be afraid of a perspective or a viewpoint if you're trying to discuss sensitive issues and important things. It will by nature be uncomfortable and hurtful, from every side. Personal attacks and other such forms of violence should be stopped but if anything falls into just being an opinion I don't think it's something we should aim to moderate. 

Do you see though how I and the other trans people here are afraid of you cis people's viewpoints, because we can at any time be threatened by some idiot on here? Can you see how it applies to us? We cannot have a good discussion here if this place is handmade for neo-nazis, misogynists, racists etc. It is just not worth our time to be here and argue with you all and THAT is actually what leads to creating the political echo chamber Leo is talking about. This forum already is a fucking political echo chamber of the conservatives.

I propose there being pronoun tags on this forum so at least people do not get misgendered. There should be an option not to mention your pronouns if you do not know what your pronouns are or if you feel uncomfortable. That would actually be very nice. Like as long as I do not get intentionally misgendered or misgendered in a not well-meaning way, I feel way safer discussing with an uneducated person.

Also I think we should still give away warnings, but maybe get rid of them if people actually show improvement? I just think there is really a double standard in what is being policed. 

I also think a lot of you should read the articles and watch the video I linked in the original post, since I am still seeing posts coming from a really biased perspective here.

[Tyler Robinson]

2 minutes ago, bejapuskas said:

 

 

 

 

I propose there being pronoun tags on this forum so at least people do not get misgendered. There should be an option not to mention your pronouns if you do not know what your pronouns are or if you feel uncomfortable. That would actually be very nice. Like as long as I do not get intentionally misgendered or misgendered in a not well-meaning way, I feel way safer discussing with an uneducated person.

Also I think we should still give away warnings, but maybe get rid of them if people actually show improvement? I just think there is really a double standard in what is being policed. 

I also think a lot of you should read the articles and watch the video I linked in the original post, since I am still seeing posts coming from a really biased perspective here.

I completely support you. I empathize with you and I definitely expect Leo to introduce changes in this regard. 

Enough of bullshit forum politics lol. 

Just because majority of people on a forum don't believe in a particular perspective does not make that perspective wrong. 

It's called jumping on the bandwagon to please the collective. 

Who cares. Personal value should be respected too, not just what majority thinks. 

You're a very important mod here and you need to be heard and understood and there should be a pronoun option. I agree with all the changes you propose for the forum. 

I wish the mods weren't so biased against you and you're feeling like a lonewolf. 

I can smell some group politics stuff going on. But I'm here to support your opinions and thoughts. Hang in there. 

I believe you. 

 

[Ulax]

@bejapuskas I think you could get value out of studying something like conflict negotiation or non violent communication.

I think you have some pride that blinds you to your own limitations, i.e. this claim around it not being possible to persuade people. I think if you added skills in those to your repertoire you could be a pretty powerful force for progress. It seems to me you have a fair degree of will, courage and tenacity.

[bejapuskas]

@Ulax  Thank you, but also get out with the nonsense about pride blinding me. You don't know what it is like from what I see. Actually go and try change people's minds. I am not going to ever stop being anti-misogynist, anti-racist, anti-queerphobic etc. You are not changing my mind in that. I enjoy the encouragement, but you still have not read the articles about how sexual repression and queerness was violently destroyed in non-Western cultures. You would benefit from studying actual real history that happened instead of the history written by men who literally enslave people. 

27 minutes ago, Tyler Robinson said:

I completely support you. I empathize with you and I definitely expect Leo to introduce changes in this regard. 

Enough of bullshit forum politics lol. 

Just because majority of people on a forum don't believe in a particular perspective does not make that perspective wrong. 

It's called jumping on the bandwagon to please the collective. 

There is definitely a lot of this going on here.

Who cares. Personal value should be respected too, not just what majority thinks. 

You're a very important mod here and you need to be heard and understood and there should be a pronoun option. I agree with all the changes you propose for the forum. 

I wish the mods weren't so biased against you and you're feeling like a lonewolf. 

I can smell some group politics stuff going on. But I'm here to support your opinions and thoughts. Hang in there. 

I believe you. 

Thank you  

Another double standard - I and others have to suck up to people who are unwilling to educate themselves, because they cry when they receive warnings. The main argument for this is that "we are new here" which is not true, we have always been here, but the history about us was destroyed, as expected. You could still argue that it is a new topic for people in the context of their lives and that is why we should suck up. Sure. But what about  the argument that these people with discriminatory opinions have ruled the world for as long as we can remember, so maybe we can have some rest by finally them being silenced instead of us? What about that? Or what about them also being labelled as too emotional when they receive 2 warning points instead of us being called too emotional? Being called too emotional is literally so based on identity here. If you are a cishet white male crying because bejapuskas gave you 4 points for justifying nazi race science, bro that is like actual cry baby material, so hormonal and hysterical for having that testosterone in your body. Another double standard. These are not serious arguments, they are just overlooking the other arguments that are there and seeing themselves therefore as superior. Wake up. Also I am still recovering from Leo thinking I do not understand that the world is ignorant of my identity. Maybe he thinks I live under a rock?