What's actually being censored: misinformation or the truth?

[Leo Gura]

Woke ideology is def an echochamber, but no major platform is pure woke ideology. Not even close. Right wing ideology is all over these platforms and no one is planning to remove it.

Restricting hate speech and bullying is not woke ideology. It's basic decorum for a social gathering.

It's like you're saying: the party you're hosting is just an echochamber because you are not allowing me to jerk off on the dance floor.

Yes, in that sense it is an echochamber of people who don't jerk off on dance floors. But I am okay with that. That's how it should be. If you want to jerk off on dance floors, you should host your own niche parties that don't involve the general population. But the whole point is that you don't want to jerk off on a dance floor all alone, you want to jerk off in front of the whole general population, you want to jerk off on other people, which of course we will not allow.

Notice that mostly who gets banned are those with a habit off jerking off on others.

Edited November 28, 2022 by Leo Gura

[mr_engineer]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Restricting hate speech is not woke ideology. It's basic decorum for a social gathering.

This is where I disagree with you. 'Hate' is an emotion. So, 'hate speech', is supposed to have come out of hate. 

Now, this implies that the elite/authority-figure is empathetic enough towards the person uttering the hate-speech to be able to see that it is coming out of hate, right?!

My claim is, that turns out to not be the case. Do you agree with me on that or not?! 

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It's like you're saying: the party you're hosting is just an echochamber because you are not allowing anyone to jerk off on the dance floor.

I agree with you that in this example, it really is about public decency. 

But, should political correctness be mandated in social gatherings? Isn't that being a snowflake? This makes it so you can't even disagree with the collective. 

I mean, I can understand that it's an unwritten rule that you should be nice to each other, and that's what political correctness is about. But, on a huge platform, you know what happens. You know the flame-wars. And these are civil, ideological debates. This is the reality. 

If your goal is to mandate political correctness, are we really ready for that?! 

[Leo Gura]

9 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

This makes it so you can't even disagree with the collective. 

But this is totally wrong.

You ARE fully allowed to disagree with the collective on nearly any issue as long as you're not a jerk about it. Again, notice why JP got banned. It wasn't for his philosophy. It was for namecalling. His philosophy is allowed.

Hate speech doesn't mean it must come from hate. It just means bullying and bigoted behavior. You should not be allowed to use slurs and the like.

Of course if people are getting offended over mere difference in perspective then that should not count as hate speech. Hate speech is not defined by if someone feels offended, it is defined more objectively as racial slurs, namecalling, calling someone subhuman, posting cartoons of Jews with big noses, etc.

All major online platforms must enforce anti-bullying. It is not optional.

Edited November 28, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Eyowey]

I would never use slurs but I don't see them as more evil than bad mouthing a member of your own race.

[mr_engineer]

14 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Hate speech doesn't mean it must come from hate. It just means bullying and bigoted behavior. You should not be allowed to use slurs and the like.

And these behaviors do come out of hate. So, hate-speech includes but is not limited to these behaviors. 

But, when you limit the definition of hate-speech to these behaviors and then when you see someone actively engaging in a debate about whether white people are intellectually superior to black people or not, actively working on their racism, that can also be classed as 'hate-speech' by black people listening. Because it can evoke a feeling of 'unfairness' or 'being hated' or 'offence' on the part of black people listening. Because, the racist is coming from a place of being biased against black people. They are prejudiced to begin with. But, they're not being an a-hole about it. 

And, when something like this is reported, the authority-figures have a choice - do we look at the reality of whether it is hate-speech (offensive, or ban-worthy hate-speech) or not, or do we care about our reputation? Cuz there is a danger of getting smeared if we don't 'do something' about this 'hate-speech', because people are offended! The line between actually behaving fairly and making people happy gets blurred and people err on the side of their best-interests. 

This is the root-cause of this idea that 'ideas are dangerous'. 

I think we're really wrong as a collective on what 'hate-speech' means. And, there is a lot of disagreement on this issue, for sure. 

This was an enlightening discussion. Thanks! 

Edited November 28, 2022 by mr_engineer

[Leo Gura]

Racism is hard to police because it can be expressed in so many ways. So policing it will always be a grey area. But it must still be policed.

Platforms need to establish clear and objective criteria for how they identify racism and let everyone know what those are. Obviously if someone posts, "Black people have the intelligence of dogs" then that would be considered racist despite no slurs being used.

There's nothing really new here. Laws have always been grey. For example, what counts as defamation? Yet we still have defamation laws and we enforce them.

Edited November 28, 2022 by Leo Gura

[mr_engineer]

29 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

"Black people have the intelligence of dogs"

'Dog' is a slur, isn't it?! So is 'monkey'. But, when you say 'we want to change the name of the monkeypox virus cuz that name is racist', that's being a snowflake. 

Here's my solution to this - 

• The first thing we have to do is that we have to stop demonizing hate as an emotion. Everyone feels it. 
• The next thing is to be able to look at whether someone who feels hate, is acting out of that hate or not. Whether they're being rational in their action or not. 

Don't ask me how this will get done.  I'm just putting out a solution that I think is better than what exists, and I do think this can be done. I'm not sure about how, yet. That'll depend on other factors. 

Edited November 28, 2022 by mr_engineer

[Danioover9000]

@Leo Gura

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

But this is totally wrong.

You ARE fully allowed to disagree with the collective on nearly any issue as long as you're not a jerk about it. Again, notice why JP got banned. It wasn't for his philosophy. It was for namecalling. His philosophy is allowed.

Hate speech doesn't mean it must come from hate. It just means bullying and bigoted behavior. You should not be allowed to use slurs and the like.

Of course if people are getting offended over mere difference in perspective then that should not count as hate speech. Hate speech is not defined by if someone feels offended, it is defined more objectively as racial slurs, namecalling, calling someone subhuman, posting cartoons of Jews with big noses, etc.

All major online platforms must enforce anti-bullying. It is not optional.

   True, especially given what Destiny went through for the past 12 years in Twitch and Twitter. Just because you can use sarcasm, satire and dark parody, doesn't mean that person gets to justify them as just soft/hard R use of those slurs, name calling and humiliation-based humors or what have you. It's hate-speech if you use very offensive words and language that demonize, dehumanize and humiliate the target person/group.

[How to be wise]

9 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I have no respect for common people's intelligence.

I agree that people can be deceived, but surely you’re being a little bit paranoid about the intelligence of others? It’s true that most people aren’t as intelligent as you, but this is not the same as them all being stupid. 

[Leo Gura]

38 minutes ago, How to be wise said:

I agree that people can be deceived, but surely you’re being a little bit paranoid about the intelligence of others?

Absolutely not.

Even the most intelligent humans are as dumb as a monkey swinging on a branch.

[How to be wise]

@Leo Gura I’ve noticed that pretty much all intellectuals out there think everybody else is stupid. It’s obviously because they spend so much time in their heads that the bar of intelligence for them is so much higher than for everybody else, hence when most people don’t meet their superhuman standards, they are classified as dumb. 

[Consept]

1 hour ago, How to be wise said:

@Leo Gura I’ve noticed that pretty much all intellectuals out there think everybody else is stupid. It’s obviously because they spend so much time in their heads that the bar of intelligence for them is so much higher than for everybody else, hence when most people don’t meet their superhuman standards, they are classified as dumb. 

It's not even a case of smart or dumb in terms of an iq test, it's just that we have so many bias', self-delusion, lack of solid epistemology, lack of big picture perspective, survival bias etc etc, that we don't even realise the decisions we make and the consequences of them. Look at 2 of the biggest companies in the world macdonalds and coca cola, essentially selling sugar water and highly processed food that is terrible for you but people make that choice everyday over water which is free and healthy food. People in general do not make the best choices for themselves and I'm including myself in that. 

[AminB501]

@mr_engineer Most censorship also happens because they speak to highly violent audience, if you look at the audiences from the right they’re aggressive and you can’t deny that. I’m sure you don’t think woke people are going to beat you to death on the street right?

[mr_engineer]

1 hour ago, AminB501 said:

@mr_engineer Most censorship also happens because they speak to highly violent audience, if you look at the audiences from the right they’re aggressive and you can’t deny that. I’m sure you don’t think woke people are going to beat you to death on the street right?

Oh, you'd be surprised. 

 

[John Paul]

@mr_engineer If you were ever truly a victim of racism im sure none of this would be written here.

[mr_engineer]

4 minutes ago, John Paul said:

@mr_engineer If you were ever truly a victim of racism im sure none of this would be written here.

Don't make this personal. 

[John Paul]

@mr_engineer what if the rhetoric of people arguing black people have lower intelligence kept me from getting a job. Is it personal then?

[mr_engineer]

2 minutes ago, John Paul said:

@mr_engineer what if the rhetoric of people arguing black people have lower intelligence kept me from getting a job. Is it personal then?

If that's true, I'm very sorry that happened to you. It is an offensive idea and the offence should be acknowledged. 

Having said that, it is obvious disinformation and it should be up for debate, just for the purposes of debunking it. It's kind of a chicken-move, to ban someone for stating their false opinion. It emboldens them more. You have to resolve this by debate. 

The issue with not doing this and banning people left, right and center, is that when the truth is not so clear, power gets abused. What I gave you is a very extreme example, where the truth is very clear. But, when it's up for debate, the platforms should allow that debate to happen. Otherwise, it comes across as a chicken-move, like they have something to hide. 

[John Paul]

@mr_engineer how is “black people are less intelligent” even a debate worthy topic? If more people are publicly seen and accepted for having that view it could personally keep people from having jobs in their real life offline… can’t you just make a little sacrifice in your idealistic vision for the sake of people who have already been through enough in their last generations to get a fucking job and escape the past?

you really don’t know what it’s like. You’re living in a world where racism doesn’t exist and we are just diacussing things rationally…. These guys are out here still getting victimized… think of the reality for others…. Poorer Black people etc.

[John Paul]

It’s more than offensive, it is toxic. There’s no risk that some Karen meme could get to the point of “let’s kill those crackers in the street in our neighborhood”-that shit is real for black people.