Why science cannot understand consciousness

[Someone here]

 Science can't understand what consciousness is because Consciousness runs through everything. So you can't get outside of consciousness to explain it from beyond.  It goes through everything. It runs through everything through different 'escapes'. Sensation or sentience often seen as some form of 'awareness' or a slight comprehension of the outside world. I beg to differ but still believe consciousness can be an object of supporting inanimate objects as having some form of reality to them, despite that not being the purpose of consciousness.

If you hit a rock, in my opinion, it will not be aware that it has been struck, as it has no perceptual system of neurological or even slightly intelligent behaviour. It is just a rock, although as I said consciousness is an omnipresent thing so hypothetically, the atoms that respond could be reacting and therefore being aware to the extent of unintentional and instinctive reactivity. 

So consciousness runs through everything. Even inanimate objects that seem to have no consciousness but are made of consciousness.  And as long as scientists assume that consciousness is something that living beings have it will forever remain a mystery. 

[Thought Art]

@Someone here Nice, 

I wonder if I could add too it’s like science is a hand trying to grasp itself. Science is a finite dream within consciousness that avoids self reference and the idea that their consciousness is actually and absolute dream, imaging all causality, time physics etc. So it’s trying to understand the absolute through finite means which is impossible.

[Someone here]

14 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

@Someone here Nice, 

I wonder if I could add too it’s like science is a hand trying to grasp itself. Science is a finite dream within consciousness that avoids self reference and the idea that their consciousness is actually and absolute dream, imaging all causality, time physics etc. So it’s trying to understand the absolute through finite means which is impossible.

Yeah very much agree. Another analogy would be the eye trying to see itself . And that's actually more reflective because the eye is a portal for consciousness. 

Consciousness is everything and nothing. It always was. .and that is why God Consciousness is nothing. Nothing and everything. and is infinite. We are all connected through our consciousness. The reality you are experiencing right now is an illusion. The real truth is complete awareness; one with God Consciousness and you will experience it or may have already. You created your reality with your conscious imagination. You are doing it all the time, you just do not realize it. You chose this life, this incarnation, before you were born; when you were still spirit. You chose this reality to learn, grow, and ascend from. Oh, there is so much. But I will just stop here lol

[Thought Art]

@Someone here Namaste

[r0ckyreed]

Then what is Spirituality? Isn’t Spirituality after all, the science of consciousness/awakening? Science means “to know and understand” and there are many forms and ways of doing science. The Scientific Method is only one narrow way to investigate reality and yes, the method is limited. But that method is only one narrow domain within science and does not encompass the whole of science. That is like saying that there is only one way of doing spirituality, using The Spiritual Method of astrology. Anything that isn’t in the paradigm of astrology is bs. But that doesn’t mean spirituality is bs or flawed, but rather it is the method itself and the way it is practiced by the individual or group. Start to see that the duality between spirituality and science doesn’t exist. Doing meditation and psychedelics is a science of consciousness because there is no difference between science and spirituality/philosophy. Science = spirituality!

Also consider: If it is impossible for consciousness to understand itself, since there is nothing outside of consciousness to grasp it with, then what is awakening really? Wouldn’t that mean awakening is but a dream within consciousness? If there is nothing but the Dream/Consciousness, then what are you really awakening from and into? Another dream. I talk about this more in my other post called Awakening is a Dream.

Edited November 19, 2022 by r0ckyreed

[Thought Art]

@r0ckyreed I think we are discussing modern materialistic science and you make good points.

Edited November 19, 2022 by Thought Art

[Someone here]

6 minutes ago, r0ckyreed said:

Then what is Spirituality? Isn’t Spirituality after all, the science of consciousness/awakening? Science means “to know and understand” and there are many forms and ways of doing science. The Scientific Method is only one narrow way to investigate reality and yes, the method is limited. But that method is only one narrow domain within science and does not encompass the whole of science. That is like saying that there is only one way of doing spirituality, using The Spiritual Method of astrology. Anything that isn’t in the paradigm of astrology is bs. But that doesn’t mean spirituality is bs or flawed, but rather it is the method itself and the way it is practiced by the individual or group. Start to see that the duality between spirituality and science doesn’t exist. Doing meditation and psychedelics is a science of consciousness because there is no difference between science and spirituality/philosophy. Science = spirituality!

Also consider: If it is impossible for consciousness to understand itself, since there is nothing outside of consciousness to grasp it with, then what is awakening really? Wouldn’t that mean awakening is but a dream within consciousness? If there is nothing but the Dream/Consciousness, then what are you really awakening from and into? Another dream. I talk about this more in my other post called Awakening is a Dream.

The barrier for science to understanding consciousness is that we ignore the fact that all of our knowledge of the world has come from consciousness. When we think that this world knowledge is separate from consciousness, then we eliminate all of the consciousness that we know about except the misunderstood activities inside the brain. Those brain activities will likely be substantially understood in the future. But people will still have a problem thinking of consciousness as a thing that arises from the brain. In the way that we think of a chair as a thing.

Spirituality also doesn't know what consciousness is . You can keep having awakenings forever. And still not get to the rock bottom of what consciousness is . Because its infinite. Will that be an adequate explanation for you?

[r0ckyreed]

2 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

@r0ckyreed I think we are discussing modern materialistic science and you make good points.

I see a common issue then with Actualized.org and its followers of not being specific in their critique and generalizing their critiques. If you want to criticize how humans today do science, then state that your critique is that conventional, modern, materialistic science cannot do _____ or fails at ______. If we state that science cannot do or fails at _____, then we are stunting what science can do and evolve to. We want modern science to evolve to become as holistic as possible. It seems that critiques about science assume that there is only a certain way science can be done. But that is exactly what we don’t want if we truly want to understand all of reality. We must view things holistically and make it clear about what we are really critiquing. That is just my thoughts anyways. 

[r0ckyreed]

14 minutes ago, Someone here said:

The barrier for science

The barrier for modern, conventional science that dismisses the spiritual and mystical elements of consciousness.  Not all forms of science have the same hidden assumptions that modern, materialistic science has.  Science with a capital S encompasses spirituality and questions all assumptions such that it seeks pure understanding, which means to be completely without bias.  This is the kind of science we want modern, conventional science to evolve to; otherwise, humanity will never progress/develop beyond stage orange.

14 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Spirituality also doesn't know what consciousness is . You can keep having awakenings forever. And still not get to the rock bottom of what consciousness is . Because its infinite.

If Consciousness cannot know itself, then complete awakening/omniscience must be an illusion assuming the base layer consciousness cannot know itself.  But I guess that is the issue that reality is faced with -- Existence/Consciousness is prior to knowing.  This means that knowledge of anything is an illusion because existence precedes knowledge. I think I get you now.

Edited November 19, 2022 by r0ckyreed

[Someone here]

8 minutes ago, r0ckyreed said:

The barrier for modern, conventional science that dismisses the spiritual and mystical elements of consciousness.  Not all forms of science have the same hidden assumptions that modern, materialistic science has.  Science with a capital S encompasses spirituality and questions all assumptions such that it seeks pure understanding, which means to be completely without bias.  This is the kind of science we want modern, conventional science to evolve to; otherwise, humanity will never progress/develop beyond stage orange.

That's laughable to Any scientist or academic . They don't see different kinds of science or different versions of scientific method.

Vodo and witchcraft and psychedelics can never be considered real science.  Because science comes with a metaphysical assumptions of materialism as you pointed out . So my point is that science will never fully understand consciousness using the current set of assumptions. 

8 minutes ago, r0ckyreed said:

If Consciousness cannot know itself, then complete awakening/omniscience must be an illusion assuming the base layer consciousness cannot know itself.  But I guess that is the issue that reality is faced with -- Existence/Consciousness is prior to knowing.  This means that knowledge of anything is an illusion because existence precedes knowledge. I think I get you now.

Consciousness is forever a mystery to itself.  Reality is pure magic .irreducible mystery.  How could you use finite tools and methods (science, spirituality, religion etc) to unravel something which is infinite ?

An absolute truth in an infinite reality?   Don't you see the obvious weirdness of such claim? 

[axiom]

Science can’t explain or find consciousness because there is no consciousness.

[r0ckyreed]

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

That's laughable to Any scientist or academic . They don't see different kinds of science or different versions of scientific method.

Vodo and witchcraft and psychedelics can never be considered real science.  Because science comes with a metaphysical assumptions of materialism as you pointed out .

Science with a small s is what is mainly being critiqued.  Big S Science, or what I call Pure Science, is contemplating, meditating, and using psychedelics to investigate consciousness.  I believe Pure Science can implicitly understand the nature of consciousness, whereas conventional science is a narrow, biased method that isn't holistic enough to understand.  Conventional science cares about utility not truth, whereas Pure Science cares about pure understanding of reality.  The people who are laughing and strawmannirg aren't doing Science (with capital S), they are doing pseudoscience.  

[r0ckyreed]

5 minutes ago, axiom said:

Science can’t explain or find consciousness because there is no consciousness.

Esse Est Percipi

Edited November 19, 2022 by r0ckyreed

[Tyler Robinson]

 

                             

Consciousness is everything you experience. It is the tune stuck in your head, the sweetness of chocolate mousse, the throbbing pain of a toothache, the fierce love for your child and the bitter knowledge that eventually all feelings will end.

The origin and nature of these experiences, sometimes referred to as qualia, have been a mystery from the earliest days of antiquity right up to the present. Many modern analytic philosophers of mind, most prominently perhaps Daniel Dennett of Tufts University, find the existence of consciousness such an intolerable affront to what they believe should be a meaningless universe of matter and the void that they declare it to be an illusion. That is, they either deny that qualia exist or argue that they can never be meaningfully studied by science.

 

[axiom]

7 hours ago, Tyler Robinson said:

Consciousness is everything you experience.

There is no experience.

[Guest Edvardas]

10 hours ago, axiom said:

There is no experience.

Of course there is, lol.  

I worry that newbies get cofused to infinity by such statements. 

God is experience.