Critique of the Forum

[Consept]

I've been on the forum basically since the start and I think at the beginning, no one really knew what shape it would take and what kind of people it would attract. So it definitely interested me to have a community of people interested in talking about consciousness and non-duality and looking at society from a different perspective. 

Before i get into my criticisms I want to give some positives, its really great that you can meet and potentially build relationships with people interested in this stuff, theres not a lot of people that are that I come across in my life anyway, so this is cool. Also a lot of great resources get posted which can lead to going down new paths and learning new ideas. 

Now for the fun part... 

My main criticism is that I think Leo underestimates how much foundational growth people need to do before they start trying to realise things like god-consciousness and I believe this forum encourages them to bypass basic work they need to do in the real world which will help them grow. 

Most people come on here I believe because in some way they arent fulfilled by life, theyre looking for a way out. I would say the demographic on here is relatively young lets say 20s, in which case its not people who have lived 50 years and become disillusioned with their path, its those that dont want to face the everyday struggle of looking after yourself, working, going into the world. It can be a daunting prospect, especially if you have unaddressed traumas or parents that have coddled you or youre always online and have never really experienced life. Its natural that if you dont feel prepared you will look for a workaround, an easier way out, this is the human condition. I believe enlightenment is being unconsciously sold as this workaround, if you are looking for a way out in the way ive outlined, and you stumble upon Leos videos and hes talking about ultimate bliss and how it can be realised, something will hit home because there is truth in what Leo says, but you will only be attempting to bypass the hard but essential parts of life. 

I think people have the idea that, if i get enlightened everything else will fall into place, to me this is fantasy, it does not work like this. Maslows Hierarchy as well as Ken Wilburs model, which states you should 'grow up, clean up, wake up then show up'. No one puts waking up first, even spiral dynamics requires that you go through the lower stages and first and get to healthy versions of them. Because of the nature of any forum, ego does come into play and i think people tend to peg themselves higher on SD, but again this is just another form of bypassing, there is demonisation sometimes of blue and orange but i dont think people realise how important these are to incorporate for your life, its very important that you have structure, discipline, you know how to make money etc. I believe most people on the forum arent content because these things are not in order, its nothing to do with them not being enlightened. You will be surprised at how mch your state can change once you take responsibility for yourself, talk to more people, cook for yourself, workout etc. 

People who have never attempted to talk to the opposite sex, had a job, lived by themselves etc in my opinion should not be worried about Alien love or the highest levels of awakening. The reality is they want to do all those things and more but for whatever reason they dont feel they can, their striving for higher levels of consciousness is  just avoidance and i think until they sort themselves out spirituality will almost be a means to an end. 

If you notice a lot of the people that I wouldve considered quite healthy higher stage people have actually left the forum or post very rarely and its just because of where the forum actually is. Im not criticising anyone for being at any level, thats part of the journey but i think its a bit of an illusion that this is a high level forum. I think this forum is people on their journey, working it out but have been seduced by the idea that they can be awakened mainly through psychedelics and will be able to skip big chunks of the journey. 

Im not saying that you shouldnt be interested in non-duality or Leos ideas, they of course can help and give you a new perspective on the world. What im saying is that dont expect them to be a way out of anything. Take joy in normal life, dont try to escape, level up in every aspect. 

[Ulax]

I think you make some useful and valid points. Thanks for the feedback.

[Julian gabriel]

Don't blame Leo for people performing spiritual bypass, he has a lot of foundational content, its just boring so people don't watch it as much. At least that's why I don't watch it as much. 

This place is special because it doesn't pander too much to the people who want basic self help and basic spirituality, those people have a lot of other places to go. 

[Jannes]

That describes me. On my last 5meo dmt trip (not breakthrough range) the clear thought hit me that the reason I started spirituality and philosophy 4 years ago is because I am unable to get into an intimate relationship for the past 8 years because I have some serious fear of deeply connecting with people and I was to proud to realize that. And I am looking for a way to compensate my pain. 

Leo did say in his older videos about enlightenment that enlightenment is pretty much the most important thing to focus on and that suffering and pain will be recontextualized and won’t have nearly the same effect on you. That you will never really be happy with worldly pleasures but with enlightenment you can just be still and happy. So yeah that does sound like the only way out for a person who is overtaxed by life.

[Consept]

3 hours ago, Julian gabriel said:

Don't blame Leo for people performing spiritual bypass, he has a lot of foundational content, its just boring so people don't watch it as much. At least that's why I don't watch it as much. 

This place is special because it doesn't pander too much to the people who want basic self help and basic spirituality, those people have a lot of other places to go. 

I dont blame as I dont think hes necessarily doing it on purpose, he would probably make more money with more basic videos, but the point is he doesnt seem to be aware of what at least most people on the forum actually need and also how it can be potentially damaging to offer them this unrealistic way out. Even if you did bypass and get enlightened lets say, you probably wouldnt be that effective if you havent got these foundational aspects sorted out. Its also very damaging when you consider that there will be people with mental health issues, who are desperate for a way out and this can offer them a lot of hope, but the reality of it is that they need to address and fix their traumas and issues not run away from them. We have seen how bad this can turn out in the past, without bringing up those unfortunate incidents. 

3 hours ago, Jannes said:

That describes me. On my last 5meo dmt trip (not breakthrough range) the clear thought hit me that the reason I started spirituality and philosophy 4 years ago is because I am unable to get into an intimate relationship for the past 8 years because I have some serious fear of deeply connecting with people and I was to proud to realize that. And I am looking for a way to compensate my pain. 

Thanks for sharing, I am happy that you came to this realisation and maybe that can be seen as a benefit of psychedelics, but i also think it would be more helpful if say you were talking to someone you can trust, either irl or on this forum say and told them how you felt , they may have been able to help you reach this conclusion and give you more actionable steps. I would argue this would be a better path to take than to get heavy into psyches and over things. It probably wouldve taken less time and been more effective. 

3 hours ago, Jannes said:

Leo did say in his older videos about enlightenment that enlightenment is pretty much the most important thing to focus on and that suffering and pain will be recontextualized and won’t have nearly the same effect on you. That you will never really be happy with worldly pleasures but with enlightenment you can just be still and happy. So yeah that does sound like the only way out for a person who is overtaxed by life.

Yes this is my point, if youre depressed or vulnerable and someone that you look up to says with absolute certainty that you need to focus 100% on enlightenment to change how you feel, then of course you will do it. But that same person might be depressed because they never exercise, they dont sleep properly, their diet is terrible, they have unaddressed traumas, they havent got social skills. There are so many things you can get to before you start striving 100% for enlightenment.  

[Yarco]

The combination of spiritual and menial gives something unique that you can't get in any other community. It's not like any dedicated pickup forum, or business forum, or spiritual forum. It's an all-around "Become Your Best Self" forum.

Here you get spiritual people giving you business advice, and business people giving you spiritual advice. And mentally ill people giving you dating advice.

I'm mostly here for the life purpose and more practical stuff. I skip over the Spirituality section of the forum entirely some days. But I'm still interested in that stuff. Most people here are weird hybrids like that, "spiritual stage orange" and other combos that don't fit in anywhere else.

[hoodrow trillson]

I think the spiritual bypass thing isn't necessarily to escape life.  No one on this forum is a monk on a hill, just neglecting their every day life to achieve enlightenment.  It was most likely neglected anyways if that were the case. 

A lot of the problems people have (especially non-spiritual people for example) stems from believing their life story as concrete, real and what they are is the product of their own doing.  Suffering.  Wether that manifests into low self esteem/depression, or mania/grandiose and everything in between.  Emotional control and having a more balanced baseline is priceless in this life.  This can be achieved by meditation...  it takes a while though.  At the same time, you could also be elevating your own life while you're on your journey and not take things so personally.

I think Leo's technique is attempting nipping it in the bud, which isn't a bad angle to go with.  

It's akin to getting rid of a polyp.  Sure, it wasn't necessary since it's benign but what happens later down the road when shit hits the fan?  

[NoSelfSelf]

I fallen into this trap and now looking at all survival things to work on, not even doing 1 min of meditation or yoga...

It can be dangerous to do only spirituality...

[Raphael]

@Consept

Hello, I was also one of the first users on this forum when I registered in 2016. I noticed some of the things that you mentioned and also fell into some of these traps.

I watched Leo's videos from 2015 to 2021 and used the forum mostly between 2018 to 2021 after some traumas. I saw the evolution of actualized.org almost since the beginning and have a lot of thoughts on how it affected me and how it can affect other people.

I thought about sending a message to Leo but I'm backing up for the moment.

I currently prefer to avoid actualized.org and this forum for an undetermined period of time.

I'll maybe come back with more thoughts much later.

[Gesundheit2]

@Consept I both agree and disagree on the same point. I think it works differently for different people. For example, in my case, I had worked my ass off all throughout my childhood and early adulthood, only to realize later on that I was barking up the wrong tree the whole time. I was poor, traumatized, and on top of that delusional and not awake, so I needed awakening to fix me, give me clarity, and guide me in the right direction. Right now, I'm still poor but at least fixed and awake with clarity, and on my way to wealth. I've worked so hard to fix my issues and am still working hard to jump out of my financial struggle. But I can see how I'm probably coming from a very different place from most of the people here. In my estimation, most people here are spoiled kids who spend a lot of time playing video games and browsing the internet. They're standing on the shoulders of giants, living off the riches of their parents, and have no idea what struggling means so their suffering is imaginary, to put it bluntly. I think they will most likely benefit from listening to your advice.

Edited November 18, 2022 by Gesundheit2

[SamueLSD]

I absolutely agree, very well said. 

[Manusia]

This is a good post. I think the same before.

[Consept]

16 hours ago, hoodrow trillson said:

A lot of the problems people have (especially non-spiritual people for example) stems from believing their life story as concrete, real and what they are is the product of their own doing.  Suffering.  Wether that manifests into low self esteem/depression, or mania/grandiose and everything in between.  Emotional control and having a more balanced baseline is priceless in this life.  This can be achieved by meditation...  it takes a while though.  At the same time, you could also be elevating your own life while you're on your journey and not take things so personally.

I think Leo's technique is attempting nipping it in the bud, which isn't a bad angle to go with.  

I agree with what youre saying and i think it is important, but what i generally see is people looking for a quickish fix and bypassing the life stuff.  I feel that Leo, at times, paints this picture that all your problems will be solved i youre enlightened, at least thats how its been interpreted on the forum, you have to appreciate how compelling this idea is for people who want a way out, this can be especially problematic with psychedelics, where people who are just not ready are taking them consistently. 

 

4 hours ago, Raphael said:

@Consept

Hello, I was also one of the first users on this forum when I registered in 2016. I noticed some of the things that you mentioned and also fell into some of these traps.

I watched Leo's videos from 2015 to 2021 and used the forum mostly between 2018 to 2021 after some traumas. I saw the evolution of actualized.org almost since the beginning and have a lot of thoughts on how it affected me and how it can affect other people.

I thought about sending a message to Leo but I'm backing up for the moment.

I currently prefer to avoid actualized.org and this forum for an undetermined period of time.

I'll maybe come back with more thoughts much later.

Hey good to hear from you man, i do remember your posts. Looking forward to hearing your fleshed out thoughts

4 hours ago, Gesundheit2 said:

@Consept I both agree and disagree on the same point. I think it works differently for different people. For example, in my case, I had worked my ass off all throughout my childhood and early adulthood, only to realize later on that I was barking up the wrong tree the whole time. I was poor, traumatized, and on top of that delusional and not awake, so I needed awakening to fix me, give me clarity, and guide me in the right direction. Right now, I'm still poor but at least fixed and awake with clarity, and on my way to wealth. I've worked so hard to fix my issues and am still working hard to jump out of my financial struggle. But I can see how I'm probably coming from a very different place from most of the people here. In my estimation, most people here are spoiled kids who spend a lot of time playing video games and browsing the internet. They're standing on the shoulders of giants, living off the riches of their parents, and have no idea what struggling means so their suffering is imaginary, to put it bluntly. I think they will most likely benefit from listening to your advice.

I agree bro, I think you are probably unique from a lot of other users, I myself have lived on my own since i was 18 and am 37 now, it wasnt really by choice but i got thrown into it, it was incredibly difficult but it does force you to grow up. I commend you for the journey youve been on and yes i think if you are in that achiever mindset you can also get lost in it and you do need that spiritual balance, but even now youre saying that you still have life stuff to sort out, which shows a good amount of awareness. 

An interesting point is that Leo himself went through this life stuff, where he grew up, worked, made his money etc then he got into spirituality, this is how he is becoming self-actualized. But the issue is that hes attracting those that want to skip the life stuff, either hes encouraging it, concsiously or unconsciously or people are just attracted to it but either way i think its not the best route for most people. 

@Manusia @SamueLSD Thank you guys 

[eos_nyxia]

On 11/17/2022 at 3:45 AM, Consept said:

If you notice a lot of the people that I wouldve considered quite healthy higher stage people have actually left the forum or post very rarely and its just because of where the forum actually is. Im not criticising anyone for being at any level, thats part of the journey but i think its a bit of an illusion that this is a high level forum. I think this forum is people on their journey, working it out but have been seduced by the idea that they can be awakened mainly through psychedelics and will be able to skip big chunks of the journey.

What does a "high-level" forum actually look like to people? (Serious question to be answered.. not just a rhetorical one.)

Are you looking for a space where people have earned their accolades/ "rank", based on >>insert whatever your values are, and your system of measurement for growth/ attainment is<<. Is this just a group of people getting together, coming to discuss "Very Important Things" together? Is it meant or preferred to be more open or closed, and why?

IMO it's first more about the sorts of conversations that people have, how we have it, and what sort of values we share. What actual work is being done (or not), both individually and in people coming together.

Measurement and judgement about people's progress (or lack thereof) ought to come second, in the sense that, it's not very productive when taken in isolation, and done as something for its own sake. Case in point: take a look around at people doing the same thing, not just here, but in any group. IMO it's all the same pile, but sometimes with slightly nicer and more sophisticated window dressing. If people say that it somehow makes a difference because they are >insert "Godly"/ spiritual identity, insert specific activities<...it's mostly all distraction. By design, it generally gets people as a group nowhere (although it maybe works as a competitive stimulus for some people), and people make something of it in spite of it.
 

Quote

I believe enlightenment is being unconsciously sold as this workaround, if you are looking for a way out in the way ive outlined, and you stumble upon Leos videos and hes talking about ultimate bliss and how it can be realised,

 

Technically, enlightenment was always sold as a "way out" of the cycle of the grind.

....and that's how a religion starts.

But you know, life goes on after that (whatever your metrics for "enlightenment" is).

Edited November 18, 2022 by eos_nyxia

[eos_nyxia]

There are too many people here who want to talk and want to be the best (and also be right), and that's very boring to both watch and participate in. Which is why I rarely post on the main forum. I guess some people interact with others on this basis for fun and possibly to learn something, but personally, I find it gets old very quickly.

TBH I tend to assume that it has a lot to do with the demographics of the forum (some of which you mentioned): young, male, ...inexperienced with the opposite sex (or at least, """has trouble relating to the feminine"""/has some major chip on their shoulder about it),  has certain cognitive biases and favours particular styles of communication, and tends to exclude others on this basis. Pick one or all of the above.

Also, as @Gesundheit2 said, there is an element of this: mostly, this forum is probably made up of first-worlders with a lot of time/ privilege on their hands.

If they weren't, they would be going about conversations on the same subjects in a different way; I am sure of it.

Edited November 18, 2022 by eos_nyxia

[thisintegrated]

2 hours ago, eos_nyxia said:

There are too many people here who want to talk and want to be the best (and also be right), and that's very boring to both watch and participate in. Which is why I rarely post on the main forum. I guess some people interact with others on this basis for fun and possibly to learn something, but personally, I find it gets old very quickly.

TBH I tend to assume that it has a lot to do with the demographics of the forum (some of which you mentioned): young, male, ...inexperienced with the opposite sex (or at least, """has trouble relating to the feminine"""/has some major chip on their shoulder about it),  has certain cognitive biases and favours particular styles of communication, and tends to exclude others on this basis. Pick one or all of the above.

Also, as @Gesundheit2 said, there is an element of this: mostly, this forum is probably made up of first-worlders with a lot of time/ privilege on their hands.

If they weren't, they would be going about conversations on the same subjects in a different way; I am sure of it.

The forum was originally an Orange forum, so there are many people leftover from those days.  I rarely go on the Orange sections, so I don't see much of that incel stuff you refer to.

The non-dual part of the forum is more complex.  The subject has been around for thousands of years, it's infinitely deep, so why would you expect it to be so easily concluded?  If you find it boring, what are you doing here?  Oranges/Greens enjoy the Orange/Green content, and the Yellows/Turquoises enjoy the Yellow/Turquoise content.  The only people we have no content for here are Blues.

Edited November 19, 2022 by thisintegrated

[eos_nyxia]

@thisintegrated Originally I joined this site a couple of years ago to journal and hash out some of my identity issues/ thoughts in a public space. It was therapeutic and helped with dealing with breaking some of my self-expression inhibitions as well. If I didn't still journal on here (and get used to doing such), I probably wouldn't have an account and post on here at all anymore, though I might be reading people's posts, IDK.

I still like reading people's journals, it's like getting a recurring subscription to looking into the personal, deeper slice of how people process and approach themselves, their lives, etc. So I am watching people doing their thing, and myself doing my thing, and sometimes the both of us doing our things in ways that sometimes intersect via interaction, observing each other, etc. And I find the writing medium a bit more intimate as well.

Overall, even on this forum: I prefer to observe what people are doing, where they're at, what it means to them, etc. more than I really like to participate most of the time.

As for visiting the "SD Orange" parts of the forum, I guess: 1) I'm chronically drawn to observing the lowest common denominator. 2) A lot of the "higher content" I find a bit dry/ insipid because of the contents of it.... as, in I stopped finding what was being discussed novel years and years ago. Probably around 16-17. TBH a lot of the stuff I see people writing about it's like... a far less coherent rehash of what I grew up around via my own reading and also my dad's influence, who was also highly educated and well-written/ well-read. >>>>insert various high-Fallutian, Neo-Buddhist/Hindu spiritual influences with a cognitive bias<<<<

It's like watching people doing some kind of slow, confused noodling. From the outside, it's like... what's the appeal? Is this fun? Is this meaningful? Is this what everyone showed up to the party for? ...

It has the same appeal of showing up to an appointment you're obliged to go to, or being stuck in the public schooling system.

Still, I do read the stuff sometimes. I just find it boring.  It's like: I check in quickly, breeze through it, see if there's anything noteworthy or interesting, get out.

 

And if I feel like if I'm gonna come in here and post with a bad attitude, I just... shouldn't. It serves no worthwhile greater purpose.
 

[thisintegrated]

1 hour ago, eos_nyxia said:

@thisintegrated Originally I joined this site a couple of years ago to journal and hash out some of my identity issues/ thoughts in a public space. It was therapeutic and helped with dealing with breaking some of my self-expression inhibitions as well. If I didn't still journal on here (and get used to doing such), I probably wouldn't have an account and post on here at all anymore, though I might be reading people's posts, IDK.

I still like reading people's journals, it's like getting a recurring subscription to looking into the personal, deeper slice of how people process and approach themselves, their lives, etc. So I am watching people doing their thing, and myself doing my thing, and sometimes the both of us doing our things in ways that sometimes intersect via interaction, observing each other, etc. And I find the writing medium a bit more intimate as well.

Overall, even on this forum: I prefer to observe what people are doing, where they're at, what it means to them, etc. more than I really like to participate most of the time.

As for visiting the "SD Orange" parts of the forum, I guess: 1) I'm chronically drawn to observing the lowest common denominator. 2) A lot of the "higher content" I find a bit dry/ insipid because of the contents of it.... as, in I stopped finding what was being discussed novel years and years ago. Probably around 16-17. TBH a lot of the stuff I see people writing about it's like... a far less coherent rehash of what I grew up around via my own reading and also my dad's influence, who was also highly educated and well-written/ well-read. >>>>insert various high-Fallutian, Neo-Buddhist/Hindu spiritual influences with a cognitive bias<<<<

It's like watching people doing some kind of slow, confused noodling. From the outside, it's like... what's the appeal? Is this fun? Is this meaningful? Is this what everyone showed up to the party for? ...

It has the same appeal of showing up to an appointment you're obliged to go to, or being stuck in the public schooling system.

Still, I do read the stuff sometimes. I just find it boring.  It's like: I check in quickly, breeze through it, see if there's anything noteworthy or interesting, get out.

 

And if I feel like if I'm gonna come in here and post with a bad attitude, I just... shouldn't. It serves no worthwhile greater purpose.
 

I think that's just the INFP journals on here.  Careful with those.  Weird doesn't even describe them.  You'll catch their crazy if you read those.

[Proserpina]

2 hours ago, thisintegrated said:

I think that's just the INFP journals on here.  Careful with those.  Weird doesn't even describe them.  You'll catch their crazy if you read those.

Coming from the self-described and half earned class clown sitting in the back of the class, the INFPs on here take this as a compliment coming from you 

Edited November 19, 2022 by Proserpina

[Jannes]

On 17.11.2022 at 4:48 PM, Consept said:

Thanks for sharing, I am happy that you came to this realisation and maybe that can be seen as a benefit of psychedelics, but i also think it would be more helpful if say you were talking to someone you can trust, either irl or on this forum say and told them how you felt , they may have been able to help you reach this conclusion and give you more actionable steps. I would argue this would be a better path to take than to get heavy into psyches and over things. It probably wouldve taken less time and been more effective. 

It’s just hard to find people who have it all figured out or at least actually seem to be somewhat contempt with life. Many people look like they just come out of a grave and the people that appear to be happy mostly wear a facade and you see that they are just rotten at the insight if you spend more time with them. If you are depressed yourself you won’t attract the rare gems of people who actually found an authentic source of happiness within themself and you don’t even want to bother them. But these are the only people who you would respect advice from. What would the advice from all the unhappy people around me be: „Just get a decent paying job, find some friends you can drink with at the weekend and don’t question your existence to much as this will only make you depressed.“ That’s not a life plan. Fuck off. That’s what my position was at the time but it hasn’t changed much. People can comfort you in small things and you can comfort them but the big questions are up to you.

I think Leo is in a complex dilemma situation. He does need to make spirituality look attractive, otherwise people just won’t do it and on the other hand of course he should teach people to prioritize mastering their survival skills first but in a way where one keeps the opportunity for deeper satisfaction open and not get lost in endless materialistic pleasure seeking. I don’t think there is a good middle ground. What we also have to consider is that Leo shouldn’t place himself in the middle of these two parties but more bias in the direction of spirituality because spiritual sources are rare compared to practical self help advice so the typical viewer might balance an ultra spiritual video from Leo out with a stage orange success oriented video that he watches right after. Also the loss for people that neglect their practical problems is probably far less then the loss for people that never access awakening which is another reason why he should be more bias towards spirituality. 

Edited November 19, 2022 by Jannes