Psychedelics for Enlightenment?

[newbee]

I have not seen any evidence that psychedelic use can lead to permanent enlightenment.  It doesn't make sense to me either as why would you need an external substance to realize / awaken to your true (no)self? 

A teacher of Transcendental Meditation (TM) was asked this question whether the use of psychedelic drugs can create a a state of enlightenment.  

I copy/paste below from this article:

Maharishi was very clear about this: The use of recreational drugs, like marijuana, psilocybin, LSD, peyote, or ayahuasca, is highly contrasting with the practice of Transcendental Meditation. These substances put more stress on the nervous system.

The effect of psychedelics on the brain and cognitive functioning is examined in “Your Brain is a River, Not a Rock” by Fred Travis, Ph.D., considered our leading researcher into the effects of TM on brain functioning and development. (Pages 176 – 180 cover this topic.) Psychedelics changes a person’s perception and experience by causing the serotonin receptors to fire over and over.

Dr. Travis writes: “Hallucinogens may make you aware there is more to life than what you see in everyday experiences. By analogy, imagine you have a TV with masking tape covering 90% of the screen. You are watching the US Open through this tiny square in the middle of the screen. Taking hallucinogens is analogous to turning up the color balance and suddenly you notice that things are happening under the masking tape. There is more to life than this little space in the middle of the screen.

“Continuing to ingest hallucinogens is like continuing to watch the TV with the color balance turned up. This burns out the color card. We probably all know people who have “burnt out” from frequent use of hallucinogens. What you want to do is gently remove the masking tape. For this you need natural transcending experiences.”

In short, there is a difference between a chemically altered state of consciousness that hijacks the functioning of the brain and nervous systems and heightened consciousness through regular transcending.

For decades, we’ve had people who were interested in learning TM who resisted this information, defending their use of substances as a sacrament, a religious ceremony, even a lifestyle choice. And we understand this is true in different cultures and traditions.

However, any answer to the initial question has to begin by addressing: What is enlightenment and how is this state cultivated? This is what sets Maharishi’s teaching apart from other teachers and systems — his explanation of the systematic and progressive refinement of the functioning of the nervous system that occurs over time with regular TM practice, and the unique characteristics of the state of enlightenment.

Enlightenment is not a philosophy or fairy tale, not something that can be studied and learned intellectually, nor sustained on the basis of memory. It is a unique state of neurophysiological functioning in which the activity of the mind becomes capable of maintaining the qualities of inner silence and stillness even while engage in activity; in which pure consciousness is spontaneously maintained as the underlying condition of the other changing, or relative states of consciousness: waking, dreaming, and sleeping. There is no shortcut, only detours.

[newbee]

I thought to copy/paste some pearls of wisdom from the Reddit forum to the same question :

Quote

 

Roy_ALifeWellLived

·3 yr. ago

Kinda late to this post, but I heard something once that really resonated with me. It said to think of psychedelics like you're touring a mansion. You can come back and take the tour to marvel at it's beauty and wonder any time you'd like. The more you do it, the more familiar you will be with the mansion, but it won't necessarily get you any closer to living in the mansion. Meditation requires you to build the mansion yourself, brick by brick. Once it is built, you will have the ability to maintain a permanent residence within it for the rest of your life. Whoever said it first said it much better than me lol, but that was the jist of it.

 

 

Quote

 

ThunderTummy

·3 yr. ago

“Beware of unearned wisdom” -Carl Jung said that and he was talking about the use of psychedelic drugs. The point being, if you don’t do the leg work and step by step learn to swim in deeper and deeper waters and instead just dive right into the deepest end of the pool from the outset- well, don’t be surprised if you find you can’t handle where you end up. Disclaimer-I didn’t write this, I had copied it years ago and found it fascinating. Had to share.

 

 

[newbee]

Eckhart Tolle tried some drugs to see if it is the same as natural enlightenment:

 

[Moksha]

Although I haven't tried psychedelics, I agree that they can open the shutters of the mind and give you a glimpse of ultimate reality. Tolle mentioned Aldous Huxley in his answer, and interestingly Huxley concluded that his glimpses on psychedelics were only that:

[The] things which had entirely filled my attention on that first occasion [chronicled in The Doors of Perception], I now perceived to be temptations – temptations to escape from the central reality into false, or at least imperfect and partial Nirvanas of beauty and mere knowledge.

[newbee]

Yes I also read that about Aldous Huxley in this article:

these are the key points of the article:

• Aldous Huxley postulated that psychedelics can turn off filters in the brain that inhibit us from experiencing a higher reality.
• Studies show that psychedelics and meditation can induce a similar unitive state of consciousness associated with high global brain integration.
• Neurophysiological studies on subjects claiming enlightenment show an underlying high global brain integration during cognitive tasks and sleep.
• Physics says everything in the universe is instantly connected. Psychedelics and meditation may allow us to experience that connection.

The author of the article also concludes that:

Psychedelics appear to give us a glimpse of enlightenment. Meditation appears to allow enlightenment to be lived. As a long-term meditator and primary-care physician, I recommend meditation.

[Breakingthewall]

for me psychedelics are not to show you something of the "higher reality". reality is what it is, what we are. What happens is that what we are is a very complex avatar with many layers of fear with which we veil ourselves and create separation. psychedelics serve to identify that fear, and relax it. Imagine that you have an insurmountable fear of climbing rock walls. you take a pill that eliminates your fear and you do it. then you are afraid again, but you have already seen that you can climb it. you take it again, you try to climb without a pill, you climb a bit but you get scared quickly. again with a pill. then without another bit... and so on until you get rid of fear... if you get it, it's not sure. what was certain is that without a pill you were not going to climb even half a meter because the fear was insurmountable. It's so big that it's hidden, you can't see it. So what to do? Stay in the floor for ever? And of course, everytime that you did, you learn, you grow in understanding of yourself, of the nature of the fear, in how it is limiting you 

The important thing that you see is not the "higher reality", is the fear. The structures that are limiting you. At the end, what do you want? Be free, right? For that you have to understand what is imprisoning you

 

Edited November 15, 2022 by Breakingthewall

[Dorje Chang]

Enlightenment appears to be related to a profound rewiring of the brain. I'm not a neuroscientist, but the brain can only be rewired slowly. 

Shinzen Young might say that meditation rewires the brain in such a way that you develop higher concentration, clarity, and equanimity over time. If you do this enough, you can experience phenomena with such extraordinary awareness that you gain insight into non-duality.  Reinforcing such insights further rewires the brain so that you shift your conscious experience more and more toward nondual awareness. 

That's a story that many people can follow, at least.

Clearly, a psychedelic experience can induce a temporary state that has a lot in common with the description of enlightenment. The experience can be so remarkable that it also creates a powerful emotional memory.

If you buy into neuroscientific reasoning, however,  an isolated experience cannot possibly rewire the brain in a fundamental way. Same as with a single meditation session. 

The interesting question is then: how would the repeated use of psychedelics rewire the brain?  

There are reasons to be skeptical that this is a reliable method for enlightenment: 

• There's no indication that Ayahuasca religions lead to enlightenment. 
• Leo is certainly not the first person to use psychedelics hundreds of times. Where are all the people enlightened by this method? 
• People who are heavily into psychedelics are generally not very impressive in their wisdom. 

Edited November 16, 2022 by Dorje Chang

[vladorion]

Psychedelics can be useful for shadow work.

There is no evidence whatsoever that they are a legit tool for enlightenment.

None of the traditions that use psychedelics have any idea about enlightenment.

I've met some of the most energetically messed up people in areas where there's a lot of psychedelic tourism (Iquitos and the Sacred Valley, Peru). Never encountered those kind of messed up vibes on meditation retreats or non-duality events.

[Breakingthewall]

there is no tradition or reports of regular use of 5meo plus meditation and self-inquiry and serious and sustained desire for enlightenment for years. Some psychedelics are not the same as others. mushrooms and lsd are powerful but they do not go directly to the dissolution of the ego. their sporadic use is useful and even necessary since they offer a unique perspective, but it is 5 meo the enlightenment tool. But without being linked to a real desire for total openness and a practice of constant meditation and self-inquiry, it is useless. maybe to drive you crazy

[Batman]

Whoever thinks is going to get enlightened by ingesting substances, sells himself a bill of goods. Psychedelics alter mind and perception, and awakening is not about that. However, because of the immense power they have on stripping filters, it is pretty easy to taste unfiltered consciousness with them. I would say it is the fastest way to "see" formless nature, because without the perceptual overlay of ego it is simple to recognise that "things" are not as solid and separate as we thought them to be. The only problem is that after the effects wears off, consciousness return to mind identification and to the belief in separation between objects.

[NoN-RaTiOnAL]

by your logic, there is no indication mediation leads to enlightenment aswell. 
why would you need to sit and concentrate on your breath to realize something that is within you? 
you see the method is not the issue, but ones intention and seriousness, so one could use meditation, psychedelics or even a sex toy to achieve enlightenment. 
how can you even prove enlightenment happened? its pure subjectivity. people could lie about reaching this state all around you. 
why do you care so much to disprove psychedelics? just give it a try and find out instead of all this waste of mental energy.
 

[Jowblob]

15 minutes ago, NoN-RaTiOnAL said:

by your logic, there is no indication mediation leads to enlightenment aswell. 
why would you need to sit and concentrate on your breath to realize something that is within you? 
you see the method is not the issue, but ones intention and seriousness, so one could use meditation, psychedelics or even a sex toy to achieve enlightenment. 
how can you even prove enlightenment happened? its pure subjectivity. people could lie about reaching this state all around you. 
why do you care so much to disprove psychedelics? just give it a try and find out instead of all this waste of mental energy.
 

Give this guy an applause, it's indeed all about your intention from the heart. Every symbol of help or tool is just merely an illusion created by us to help us go further after our intention.

[Moksha]

2 hours ago, NoN-RaTiOnAL said:

by your logic, there is no indication mediation leads to enlightenment aswell. 
why would you need to sit and concentrate on your breath to realize something that is within you? 

Meditation has been a path to enlightenment for millennia. Neti neti is an ancient practice of deliberately diving into the mind, discarding what is realized not to be your true essence, until only you remain.

When meditation is mastered, the mind is unwavering like the flame of a lamp in a windless place. In the still mind, in the depths of meditation, the Self reveals itself. Beholding the Self by means of the Self, an aspirant knows the joy and peace of complete fulfillment. Having attained that abiding joy beyond the senses, revealed in the stilled mind, he never swerves from the eternal truth. He desires nothing else, and cannot be shaken by the heaviest burden of sorrow.

- Bhagavad Gita 6:19

Edited November 16, 2022 by Moksha

[Rigel]

@Moksha But that's not evidence. How could there be evidence for enlightment? You can’t prove that stuff. The whole point of inquiry is that we don't know. Otherwise we wouldnt be inquiring. That goes for psychs and meditation. Unless you did it you don't know and if you did it how could you prove any of it? 

[vladorion]

Quote

why would you need to sit and concentrate on your breath to realize something that is within you? 

Because that something is very subtle and you need a still mind in order to realize it.

But if you still the mind using a substance, then when the effects of the substance wear off your mind will go back to its usual clouded state and what you've realized won't be as obvious any more.

[NoN-RaTiOnAL]

your logic is so backwards. 
this "still mind" is your idea of "enlightenment", which is fine but consider that its all just ideas in your mind. have you experienced this so called "still mind"? what if i claim all those people who tell you they reached this still mind using concentration techniques are lying to you? how could you prove me wrong? what if i claim all this path leads to is living the idea that you are nothing and there are even more profound ideas you can actualize? what if i claim a silent mind is not your true essence?  dont you see its all just ideas in you mind? and you are clearly CLUELESS? 

if you do find out that you are CLUELESS you will finaly accept the fact you dont know and be willing to just try things out, seriously, because realizing this is the most important thing to you.

Enlightenment could be anywhere, it could be in the place you least expected. 

[vladorion]

7 hours ago, NoN-RaTiOnAL said:

your logic is so backwards. 
this "still mind" is your idea of "enlightenment", which is fine but consider that its all just ideas in your mind. have you experienced this so called "still mind"? what if i claim all those people who tell you they reached this still mind using concentration techniques are lying to you? how could you prove me wrong? what if i claim all this path leads to is living the idea that you are nothing and there are even more profound ideas you can actualize? what if i claim a silent mind is not your true essence?  dont you see its all just ideas in you mind? and you are clearly CLUELESS? 

if you do find out that you are CLUELESS you will finaly accept the fact you dont know and be willing to just try things out, seriously, because realizing this is the most important thing to you.

Enlightenment could be anywhere, it could be in the place you least expected. 

I never said that enlightenment is the equivalent of a still mind. But you need a still mind in order to realize yourself. Similar to how you need a clean mirror to see your reflection clearly.

When you still your mind temporarily, you have a temporary glimpse, like you can have with psychedelics. The mind needs to be thoroughly purified in order to have a realization that doesn't come and go.

I am willing to try things out and I've done my fair share of psychedelics.

[Moksha]

20 hours ago, Rigel said:

@Moksha But that's not evidence. How could there be evidence for enlightment? You can’t prove that stuff. The whole point of inquiry is that we don't know. Otherwise we wouldnt be inquiring. That goes for psychs and meditation. Unless you did it you don't know and if you did it how could you prove any of it? 

It is the only evidence that you can actually trust: direct realization. At best, people who have awakened can point you toward the path, but it is meaningless until you walk it yourself.

[Rigel]

@Moksha Which is why the idea that meditation leads to enlightment and the idea that psychedelics lead to enlightment are equally unprovable. That was the point of the argument. Thinking that psychedelics can’t do it and that meditation can is missing the point. Cause It's all hear say either way. 

[vladorion]

4 hours ago, Rigel said:

@Moksha Which is why the idea that meditation leads to enlightment and the idea that psychedelics lead to enlightment are equally unprovable. That was the point of the argument. Thinking that psychedelics can’t do it and that meditation can is missing the point. Cause It's all hear say either way. 

I can feel it in people who've realized themselves.

I don't feel it in people who claim they got enlightened by taking psychedelics. Well, I haven't seen such a person yet.

But that's just my experience.