A Term I Notice Gets Thrown Around Alot GASLIGHTING

[Razard86]

5 hours ago, axiom said:

Hey all, look at this list of exactly equal things, none of which exist:

A beautiful sunset
A long straight road
Free will
A field full of cows
You
A late train
Thirst
A difficult chess puzzle
Awareness
Gaslighting

Why put You in the middle? Was that intentional or accidental? Also where ya been? I was wondering when you would show up.

[Razard86]

20 hours ago, eos_nyxia said:

Reading through this thread: it seems like this has turned into this particular forum's version of "the war of the sexes", which tends to keep cropping up in the Dating/Relationships/ Sexuality forum.

"Standard issue masculine perspective": take responsibility for everything, everything is Y-O-U, it's all in your head/ problems with your thoughts and perspective, snap out of it, whip yourself (and others) into shape, scream at others (and yourself) like a drill sergeant, etc.

""Standard issue female perspective"": Um... everything else that is against this point above, apparently? Even simply taking a different attitude? ...the relative validity of subjective experiences?
 

You almost had it. The feminine perspective is this. Feeling is truth. So the Female Perspective says since I do not emotionally resonate with what is being said I don't agree with it. Men then try to use facts to tell the woman she is wrong, but that is not going to work. You have to emotionally validate to open up the communication for women who haven't integrated their masculine side yet. 

Now the interesting thing is.... Men do view feelings as truth...they just deny it subconsciously. Its really easy to spot though once you know how the whole game is played. I am very good at pissing men off by showing them that their feelings are truth just like it is for women and they delude themselves with hand picked facts and figures. 

But I digress...more men on average actually integrate their feminine. Why? Because for a man to actually get a woman and KEEP her he has to integrate his feminine, but the opposite is not always true, but it is changing because Modern Relationships are starting to require it but that is a whole other thread LOL.

But yes the term gaslighting is really majority used by women....some men use it but mostly used by women. So this thread is going to trigger more women than men, though some men will become triggered by it. I'm sure each person in this thread has a deep dark story, that is associated with that word. I could explain how if you study modern society it actually is a culture/environment that encourages selfish behavior so all it did is increase the population of selfish people which created an upsurge in the study of narcissism and the widespread use of the term "gaslighting." 

[Razard86]

On 11/16/2022 at 5:00 AM, CultivateLove said:

@Razard86 @Roy Let's say two people have a date, and they agree to meet at 8. The girl shows up at 8, but the guy is already there and asks why she's 30 minutes late. She's confused and replies she thought they agreed it's at 8. He says they certainly agreed it was 7:30, but he says he forgives her this time.

If the guy genuinely believed it was 7:30, and he was generally very sure of himself, and didn't mean to show up on the wrong time, it wouldn't be gaslighting.

But if the guy KNEW they agreed to meet at 8, and he KNOWS she doesn't have the best memory or self-esteem, and that he is intentionally doing this to make herself doubt herself even more so he can take even greater advantage of her in the future. IT'S CALLED GASLIGHTING. It's a DISTINCT type of mental & emotional abuse, that DOES HAPPEN IN REAL LIFE. (Admittedly not as much as it's thrown around as an accusation).

What else would you call it, other than something overly simplistic and general like lying or abuse? Sure, you could do that, if making simple distinctions takes too much brainpower for you.

Just because a bunch of people don't know what gaslighting actually is and frequently misuse the term, it doesn't mean that what Gaslighting was originally meant to be a label for doesn't exist.

1. I know what the original term means but all you just showed....was lying. You can simplify gaslighting as lying. Now the type of lying is repetitive, and is done usually consciously but sometimes unconsciously to create a narrative that is self-serving. It is a narrative that paints the liar as virtuous and the recipient as unworthy, or less than. I already gave an example in my original post.

For this to work, the recipient will have to have certain constraints. These constraints are a desire to be honest and accountable, a desire to be seen as honest and accountable, very forgiving, poor boundaries, and MOST OF ALL low belief in their own individual meaning creating capacity so they are willing to believe "they are wrong." 

Gaslighting can be attempted, but it rarely ever succeeds with people who are supremely confident about their meaning creating capacity (your ability to make sense of things/knowledge/interpretation/comprehension). And I am not saying an OTHER cannot succeed at either. I AM saying if you take complete authority over your ability to make sense of things the odds someone could effectively pull the wool over your eyes.....is ZERO if you never give your authority away. 

Now there are some moments you may have to give it away, to doctors for example, or mechanic, etc. But if you gain knowledge in those areas....their ability to BULLSHIT YOU...becomes less and less. We only get gaslighted when we think an OTHER knows better and give up our authority. So I am presenting the clarity...that if you know your stuff...how can someone gaslight you? They can ATTEMPT to gaslight you, but the act is nonexistent if it doesn't actually work. It needs to work for you to be gaslighted, but they can definitely ATTEMPT to gaslight you....to no avail.

[BipolarGrowth]

What the hell is this forum anymore…

[Thought Art]

@Razard86 as soon as you start adding caps my brain stops reading btw 

[axiom]

3 hours ago, Razard86 said:

Why put You in the middle? Was that intentional or accidental? Also where ya been? I was wondering when you would show up.

Just returning your call. 

My goal is coalescence and homogenisation of all points of view, but it’s no fun unless I can play in esoteric mode.

[Breakingthewall]

4 hours ago, Razard86 said:

Gaslighting can be attempted, but it rarely ever succeeds with people who are supremely confident about their meaning creating capacity (your ability to make sense of things/knowledge/interpretation/comprehension). And I am not saying an OTHER cannot succeed at either. I AM saying if you take complete authority over your ability to make sense of things the odds someone could effectively pull the wool over your eyes.....is ZERO if you never give your authority awa

True, and if you  a 105 kg professional mma fighter, you're unlikely to be bullied by your high school classmates. so it's the victim's fault for bullying

[integral]

14 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

True, and if you  a 105 kg professional mma fighter, you're unlikely to be bullied by your high school classmates. so it's the victim's fault for bullying

Yes train and become so mentally flexible that bulling is experienced/interpreted as true loves first kiss. Obviously. Why would you not do this training? This conversation is about growing up, nothing else. 

This conversation has nothing to do with victim shaming, blame or pointing the fault finger.

Edited November 18, 2022 by integral

[Breakingthewall]

20 minutes ago, integral said:

Yes train and become so mentally flexible that bulling is experienced/interpreted as true loves first kiss. Obviously. Why would you not do this training? This conversation is about growing up, nothing else. 

This conversation has nothing to do with victim shaming, blame or pointing the fault finger.

4 hours ago, Razard86 said:

 

Agree, you could also be so enlightened that you would be happy in autchwitz and you would see art and beauty in the crematoriums of jewish children. And what do we want to express with it? that at an absolute level everything is love? that is clear

[integral]

5 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Agree, you could also be so enlightened that you would be happy in autchwitz and you would see art and beauty in the crematoriums of jewish children. And what do we want to express with it? that at an absolute level everything is love? that is clear

The issue with this is your taking a useful point and cherry picking an extreme example that makes it look ridiculous. Then claiming the extreme is equivalent to the norm.

Do things to optimize your life like avoiding unfavourable life circumstances. 

Edited November 18, 2022 by integral

[Breakingthewall]

Just now, integral said:

The issue with this is your taking a useful point and cherry picking an extreme example that makes it look ridiculous. Then claiming the extreme is equivalent to the norm.

Do things to optimize your life life like avoiding unfavourable life circumstances. 

Not agree. Here it's saying that gaslighting is not real, and I give examples to show that from that point of view, nothing is real. They are extreme so that it can be seen more clearly. If you mix the relative with the absolute, there is only one result: demagogy

[Thought Art]

@Lila9 He’s just trolling himself. Trolling doesn’t exist. That’s just ego and maya ?

Edited November 18, 2022 by Thought Art

[Thought Art]

@Razard86 People still get gaslit. You can explain all the ways to avoid getting gaslit but. Happens. It can also happen in group discussions and effect the interpretation of others around you. It’s not solely a one on one happening either. Even if I know someone is trying to gaslight me and don’t let them change my understanding… it can still be used to manipulate and throw off a conversation. 

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, integral said:

 

it's normal for razard to think that there is no gaslighting, because he uses gaslighting it to win the arguments (he doesn't want to get to the truth, he wants to win, and everything is a discussion if you don't submit yourself to him). In addition, he also uses: demagoguery, intimidation, mockery, ridicule, speaking louder than the other, putting himself in a situation of superiority, and if none of that works...he blocks you! Yeah!!

Edited November 18, 2022 by Breakingthewall

[CultivateLove]

6 hours ago, Razard86 said:

1. I know what the original term means but all you just showed....was lying.

As I suspected from the very beginning, this is just you making a fool of yourself for not being able for whatever reason to make basic distinctions.

You're basically making as silly of an argument as there is only one type of apple in the world, while in reality there are many types of apples in the world, varying in shapes, sizes, sourness, sweetness, juiciness etc.

You can live in a world with the distinctive capability of a 5 year old, but don't be making the argument that you're somehow right in doing so.

I didn't even read the rest of your reply to me, this is all I need to know. As far as I'm concerned, this case is closed.

Edited November 18, 2022 by CultivateLove

[Thought Art]

19 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

it's normal for razard to think that there is no gaslighting, because he uses gaslighting it to win the arguments (he doesn't want to get to the truth, he wants to win, and everything is a discussion if you don't submit him). In addition, he also uses: demagoguery, intimidation, mockery, ridicule, speaking louder than the other, putting himself in a situation of superiority, and if none of that works...he blocks you! Yeah!!

Sounds like this is something that Razard can sit down and contemplate and self reflect on. He clearly likes contemplating he may just now need to develop skills of self reflection, allowing, not knowing, trying to understand other’s perspective and not needing to be right or prove.

 

We all can work on this stuff.

Being wrong and realizing it for most of us is more valuable than proving you are right. Chances are even if you prove you are right… you are wrong.

Edited November 18, 2022 by Thought Art

[Breakingthewall]

Just now, Thought Art said:

Sounds like this is something that Razard can sit down and contemplate and self reflect on. He clearly likes contemplating he may just now need to develop skills of self reflection, allowing, not knowing, trying to understand other’s perspective and not needing to be right or prove.

 

We all can work on this stuff.

2 hours ago, integral said:

 

Exactly , that's why I'm pointing to him the obvious. He's smart but obviously he has a blockage. when he started on this forum he was humble and quite authentic. He started to develop good points and at a certain point they started to be really good, with a brilliant and inspired touch. then things went wrong. it's obvious razard has tons of unresolved trauma. This does not mean anything bad about him, just that he has to realize it and start the job. he, realizing his brilliance, has assumed the position of enlightened teacher. It's full of it, like a stuffed turkey. You have to do the most important thing in this job: learn to be humble. He could be great , although his attitudes reveal too much of a tendency toward lack of integrity and narcissism.

razard, are you able to accept the challenge of being a guy who goes in with an open heart, without pretensions? So the truth can enter you and you can transmit it. if not, only shit will come out of you

 

[Thought Art]

@Breakingthewall  This can go for a lot of us including myself and Leo and everyone 

Edited November 18, 2022 by Thought Art

[Breakingthewall]

24 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

@Breakingthewall  This can go for a lot of us including myself and Leo and everyone 

You i don't think so, and Leo is quite arrogant, but i never ve detected demagogery to win discussion. Leo is straight to the point, and quite integral imo. And Leo is Leo...and special case. Very difficult to put yourself in his place 

[Razard86]

56 minutes ago, CultivateLove said:

As I suspected from the very beginning, this is just you making a fool of yourself for not being able for whatever reason to make basic distinctions.

You're basically making as silly of an argument as there is only one type of apple in the world, while in reality there are many types of apples in the world, varying in shapes, sizes, sourness, sweetness, juiciness etc.

You can live in a world with the distinctive capability of a 5 year old, but don't be making the argument that you're somehow right in doing so.

I didn't even read the rest of your reply to me, this is all I need to know. As far as I'm concerned, this case is closed.

You didn't read because you prejudged what I was writing, I already described gaslighting from multiple perspectives. In my first post I already laid it out, how many pointers do you want. Gaslighting is lying, its lying that is described as making someone doubt their reality. I already stated step by step how they do it, WHY they do it, and how one can overcome it. Notice that instead AGAIN of pointing out where what I said could be wrong...YOU DON'T DO IT. Instead...you say... I'm not reading the rest of that. 

That's like my reading the foreward by a book and the first sentence of the first chapter and saying I know where this is going. And then writing a short book review. All I am seeing constantly is people who have no desire for critical thinking. You don't point out anything, you just react and make blank statements with no ability to make points. If you take issue with something POINT IT OUT. This isn't complicated at all. This is just proof that you want to stick to your POV because it is very easy to do that. Integral seems to be one of the few people here who understands what is being communicated.

Oh and breaking the wall made some point about the Holocaust right? Maybe he needs to read about Victor Frankl.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Frankl

Now what he is talking about isn't exactly the same...but its close. https://einzelganger.co/the-philosophy-of-viktor-frankl/#:~:text=The philosophy of Viktor Frankl could perhaps be summarized like,'”

So Nice try. Again this is all about taking control on how you construct meaning. NOTICE how you use it haphazardly and unconsciously just not!! You didn't even read something, and then claim YOU KNOW WHAT IT IS!! Such a great use of the tool of meaning!!! Such skill!!! Such artistic mastery!!