A Term I Notice Gets Thrown Around Alot GASLIGHTING

[Tyler Robinson]

58 minutes ago, integral said:

1 Take 100% responsibility for how you interpret reality, everything else is victim hood.

++1 for playing childish ego games and for having zero awareness for what someone might be going through and for labeling everything as victimhood and engaging in utter victim shaming. 

Wow spirituality, true growth. 

And thanks for showing that 100% responsibility means absolute lack of empathy. 

Be proud of your false growth. Lol. 

 

[Consept]

@Tyler Robinson

Just as a thought experiment you could imagine what it might be like to take 100% responsibility for what happens to you. This is not necessarily easy but just go with me for a sec, let's say a 5 year old child, they rarely take responsibility for their actions, let's do a scenario, the child is left alone with a friend and they smash a vase by accident, when questioned by his mum the child blames his friend and claims he made me do it, the child really feels this and even gets emotional about it. Now from an adult perspective we can see that the child does bare some responsibility, it was his friend, he was playing a game and he was near the vase, from the child's perspective, it's not his fault at all. A good parent would explain why it's the child's responsibility and punish him, this way he will more than likely avoid this kind of thing in the future and if he can't he will take responsibility for his actions. 

As an adult it's slightly more difficult and complex but let's imagine we can take a God view of a situation where one might be gaslit. If your partner lies to you or attempts to make you believe something that isn't true, then you can also take responsibility for this even if you don't see it as your fault. God might point out that you chose this particular person, maybe you ignored certain signs that they were deceptive, maybe you stayed with them the first time you spotted a red flag. Now the reasons you did this maybe from trauma, but the point is you have to take responsibility because these things are happening to you, if it is trauma then it is on you to get help for that. So although when something goes wrong in one's life it may not directly be your fault but it still is your responsibility, it has to be as no one else has a motive to take responsibility for you. 

In terms of empathy of course someone can be sad that something happened to you but whether that thing happens to you again,  would be down to you taking responsibility for it. 

[ValiantSalvatore]

4 hours ago, Razard86 said:

I already know how to "handle" this I just refuse to do it because it is more ego games. There is a technique called Tactical Empathy which was created by Chris Voss who is a former FBI Hostage Negotiator. The key to getting people to agree with you is to communicate back to them their world view, if you can do that especially if you can do it even better than they tried to do it, THEN AND ONLY THEN will they be receptive. Why? Because humans seeks emotional validation of their perspectives and only become receptive and cooperative when they believe the person they are communicating with GETS THEM!

That is interesting, that is similar to sharing the principle from Steven Covey. Seek first to understand and then to be understood, which is quiet difficult in practice, as you consistently make the effort to understand the perspective of another person as long and until they feel understood. Asking questions promoting empathy and re-stating the experience of the other person in one's own words, until the other person feels understood. Ironically, many don't even yearn for the empathy they just appreciate the ego validation lol, so I for sure can relate as sort of an "empath" and beign under constant attack of "wolves in sheep clothing", as vengance is an interesting topic in itself. 

Funnily enough I just read this which gave me a bit insight into the game of not playing a game, as this game also exists... and I am pretty good at that . 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynicism_(contemporary)

Definitely going with the flow can be scary because of the "self" as well as if others parts "lower selves" arise from a for example TIER 3 perspective there are certainly shadows and personality/ego is arising, some are so "stupid" and consistently test that to validate their ego games. It's a good feedback to see for oneself where one is at imo. That's that!

5 hours ago, Razard86 said:

This is why businesses care so much about branding, and everything is about popularity or BEING LIKED!! Counter-Intuitively BEING HATED also works because you united the few people who like you (usually people who like to be rebels) with something or someone to fight against, and you attract attention because you draw a lot of HATE towards you. Since ATTENTION is the highest currency being liked and hated always keeps you in the spotlight. But since....I don't care about being liked even though I know the world runs on nepotism it paradoxically sometimes works in my favor because being highly hated also seems to give positive results. EGOS really love to hate after all. Instead of blocking or removing their attention from what they hate, they constantly expose themselves to it and blame it for making them angry. But who ever said reality was logical? LOL.

And shame, yes it is a widely used social modulator that is so full of hypocrisy it is slowly losings its power daily.

It's funny I never realized how far energy could go in terms of attention, and I like it that it comes to my awareness thanks to you! This is what I notice a lot so positive energy and positive action are certainly important and then "haters" basically arise to unit and band against even the positive agenda. Which is incredible to witness, especially in a weak position. Expressing hate in a creative way (giving my best to change some attitudes) can help to showcase and display discreprancies, this is why I enjoy a lot of rap music, although sometimes these messages are to much and sometimes they do alleviate a lot of pain paradoxically, as it helps me to relate to a reality that is basically projected upon me and partially lived. 

Ego's certainly love beign hated, hate is a great motivator the concept of mastery also goes into depth of using this as a motviator to overcome obstacles, although you most likely only get a dopamine kick for a phasic dopamine reward to overcome obstacles like mice . Pun intended.

So, unsure hope this helps to disambiguate the tension in the thread. There ceratainly is a way to communicate more effectively and holistically, it's a matter of practice and even AQAL. I mean why are business letters written in such a formal way? To disambiguate tensions.. politics are ridiculous, although games "have" to be played ultimately imo. The game of no game is also a game, that is why I love Alan Watts so much as a philosophy , even in that experience you can most likely find meaning etc. etc. I don't think he is the best role model though lol. 

Hope this gives some clarity. Doing my best to evolve currently, although I am basically pissed out 99.9% of the time in my existence .

[ValiantSalvatore]

3 hours ago, Razard86 said:

I'll explain. The ego is constructed and maintained through its interaction with others. So if I am aware that I am creating others and that every single thing they say is equivalent to gaslighting, and every meaning that I say onto them is also gaslighting then I don't give away my authority. The main thing I am pointing to here is authority. You do not give away your authority for how you interpret reality. 

Bro, even if you come from a TIER 3 perspective, you could be hardcore retroflecting (punishg one's own face) as shadow exist in higher releams of existence. Having Leo partially as a role model caused me a shit hole of issues lol. Because I also don't know sometimes what I am doing and integrating the shadow is painful. Imagine it like Itachi or smth.  if you enjoy anime. Accepting dark qualities and checking into shadow work is quiet important. I did like 2-5 years of this even publically anonymously with disgusting concepts and owning them, is not that fun. In that sense the shadow might appear as other in higher self and you are retroflecting yourself. So to speak. For most this is not an reality, it's even insane that someone can point it out, as a consideration. 

With a bit of though love . 

There are also more hardcore methods, for example Holotropic Breathwork and Leo has a video on this. I am using the 3-2-1 process as these apparently deals with higher levels I am unsure how holotropic breathwork/shamanic breathing is a thing for TIER 3, to to speak as barely an individual fully functions at that level. As well as for TIER 2 and TIER 1 pathologies at TIER 2 and TIER 1 are very visible. Some also funnel all their energy into it like vultures. So again I get the idea that hate promotes attention and is a currency lol. 

Edited November 17, 2022 by ValiantSalvatore

[integral]

1 hour ago, Tyler Robinson said:

++1 for playing childish ego games and for having zero awareness for what someone might be going through and for labeling everything as victimhood and engaging in utter victim shaming. 

Wow spirituality, true growth. 

And thanks for showing that 100% responsibility means absolute lack of empathy. 

Be proud of your false growth. Lol. 

lmaoooo ok we need to make distinctions between words and how they are being used. Im NOT saying take responsibility for other peoples actions, im saying take responsibility for your interpretation of what is happening. 

Im starting to realize how vital this topic is to understand and map out. Its a transition point from Fixed to Growth mindset, Victim to Ownership mindset, (Things are happening to me) to (What is happening is an Interpretation) mindset, Level 1 awareness to Level 2 awareness.

If someone gaslights you or punch's you in the face then we can say you are a victim of a crime but the mindset "I am a victim, poor me, fuck the world" is an interpretation and how you choose to experience what is happening. You can take the punch positively or negatively, you can also have radically different viewpoints of what it means to be punched in the face.

Sadguru when punched in the face is not going to experience it like you or the average person. The point of saying this is to show a new way of living life to inspire someone to transition into that new way. A fixed mindset person will say "I am not sadguru stop comparing him to me", growth mindset "Of course why didn't I think of that earlier, there is a better way". 

"People who have a victim mentality have often suffered through trauma or hard times, but haven't developed a healthier way to cope. As a result, they develop a negative view of life, where they feel that they don't have any control over what happens to them."

Razard then took gaslighting to the next level that no one here is ready for and explained that just the deception that there is a other is to gaslight yourself. Its to use the word and concept gaslighting in the construct aware context. But then everyone else lost there nuts trying to bring it back down to a more familiar context. 

Not in any judgmental way do I say most people are not ready for construct aware conversations. A better strategy instead of debating is to play the construct aware conversation when it pops up for growth and fun. = To go meta on how we engage with people, to make it a choice. 

Razard is 100% aware of the default context of the use of the word gaslighting. Why spend energy "teaching" it to him. 

 

Edited November 17, 2022 by integral

[integral]

On 11/16/2022 at 10:12 AM, CultivateLove said:

You can play word games all you want, but until you get beaten up, or raped, or mentally and emotionally abused by your spouse or your boss, are you not going to take them to court because you're too proud to be a "victim"? Or are you going to take them to court while not being a victim? You know being a victim isn't synonymous with being a crybaby, right? If you get stabbed for no reason, then the stabber by definition is the perpetrator, and you by definition are a victim, comprende?

It doesn't mean you have to cry about it, it doesn't mean you have to sulk about it and go down a downward spiral of self-pity, but it doesn't mean you can't hold that person accountable to their actions either.

What I'm saying is you can be a victim of a crime and NOT feel victimized by it. The role of responsibility for how you feel, how you interpret, how you experience is on you. Without responsibility things will be experienced as happening TO you instead of experienced as happening BY you. We are talking about what you are experiencing not any external factual events. 

Edited November 17, 2022 by integral

[Tyler Robinson]

 

@Leo Gura you need to seriously look into this thread and offer some deep opinions here. 

[Proserpina]

9 hours ago, Razard86 said:

Your statement: What you don't realize is that you are coming from a particular perspective, but you have theoretically defined yourself as above everybody else that you communicate with on this forum.

Notice how you have no evidence for this statement. How have I communicated that I am above everybody else on this forum when I have said this?  That my POV is ego? Oh no Proserpina I have a completely and easier way to PROVE that your entire post is complete EGO. 

Here is two previous thread I made. 

Here are some key points I made: 

your greatest fear is to realize.....that you are full of shit....I KNOW I AM FULL OF SHIT!!! So figuring out what is going on with me is EASY!!! You will never be able to be honest with yourself and realize what is going on inside...until you realize....YOU ARE FULL OF SHIT!!! Its okay....because....everyone you ever met...even ones you admire are all full of shit!!!!

Criticism, it is the ego's game to hide the truth. The most used method to silence the truth is to kill the messenger. Since most people do not believe in their own judgment, they first need to trust the messenger before they can believe in what the person is saying. But the truth has nothing to do with the messenger. Even the devil can speak the truth, the truth just is. 

If you come out and admit yourself to be a hypocrite, you have now discredited yourself. That which has discredited itself, cannot be discredited by others. So now whatever you say cannot be discredited, because you have already removed yourself from the equation by first discrediting yourself. But wouldn't others choose not to listen? Sure initially they may first ignore you, but over time repetition will win over. But what is even greater is now they won't rely on whether they like or respect you to accept the truth. Acceptance of the truth becomes THEIR DECISION, not based on some BLIND FAITH IN THE MESSENGER. By the messenger bringing themselves down to the common man in terms of virtue, the truth can now STAND ALONE!

People have a problem with believing in themselves and so they concoct reasons to believe others are better, they aren't better they are just a unique expression. 

^^^ So this has been a theme of my entire time on these forums. If you notice I actually encourage people that their POV and individuality is unique and special in that it is the only POV of its kind that will ever exist. You are just criticizing me because you don't like the message. 

So I will repeat what I have said earlier. 1. I am full of shit so who care about ME, focus on the message.

2. If the message bothers you emotionally ASK YOURSELF WHY?

3. If you don't like my posts BLOCK ME!!! I am full of shit remember? Why view posts from a bullshitter like me?

4. But...maybe something is being pointed to here, beyond the pain that you house within you. I have never stated that this message is easy. But Spirituality= DEATH. This is the process of removing identification...removing the concept of ME. When there is no ME, there is no victim. This process is VERY PAINFUL. 

Razard I don't want to block you, you're my friend.  I like you.  You have many great insights that I appreciate and gain value from c:  I'm trying to 'integrate' my masculine, so please pardon my more harsh side.  I'm learning at the moment.  Its a self development forum after all.  I personally feel that you sometimes take the drama on the forum and then use that to your advantage to preach.  I don't think that's very nice. 

Edited November 17, 2022 by Proserpina

[Dodo]

I have 2 warning points for gaslighting  

[Proserpina]

@Razard86 Besides people are complaining that you are in your masculine for an inordinate amount of time.  I am very rarely in my masculine and I'm the one being accused of being an 'EGO'.  Please.  Allow me to please explore that side of myself and test the waters.  You know me, you know I rarely speak up on this forum, and my feminine nature.  You even tell us that you love your ego and yet when someone is given the audacity to be in their ego and their masculine, you accuse them of being an 'EGO'. 

[thisintegrated]

29 minutes ago, Dodo said:

I have 2 warning points for gaslighting  

16 minutes ago, Proserpina said:

@Razard86 Besides people are complaining that you are in your masculine for an inordinate amount of time.  I am very rarely in my masculine and I'm the one being accused of being an 'EGO'.  Please.  Allow me to please explore that side of myself and test the waters.  You know me, you know I rarely speak up on this forum, and my feminine nature.  You even tell us that you love your ego and yet when someone is given the audacity to be in their ego and their masculine, you accuse them of being an 'EGO'. 

You're both experts in this so I was wondering.. how do you intentionally gaslight someone?  You may use Leo as an example

Looking for step-by-step instructions here.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 17, 2022 by thisintegrated

[Proserpina]

3 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

You're both experts in this so I was wondering.. how do you intentionally gaslight someone?  You may use Leo as an example

Looking for step-by-step instructions here.

 

 

 

 

Exhibit A for an example of gaslighting everyone.  

[axiom]

Hey all, look at this list of exactly equal things, none of which exist:

A beautiful sunset
A long straight road
Free will
A field full of cows
You
A late train
Thirst
A difficult chess puzzle
Awareness
Gaslighting

[Razard86]

6 hours ago, Proserpina said:

Razard I don't want to block you, you're my friend.  I like you.  You have many great insights that I appreciate and gain value from c:  I'm trying to 'integrate' my masculine, so please pardon my more harsh side.  I'm learning at the moment.  Its a self development forum after all.  I personally feel that you sometimes take the drama on the forum and then use that to your advantage to preach.  I don't think that's very nice. 

I know you do, and I know you are trying your best and I am proud of you for giving your best effort to integrate your masculine. KUDOS to you, integrating the Masculine from the Feminine Perspective is TOUGH. The Masculine perspective is all about tough love, and accountability. But Tough Love also doesn't care about being nice. Being nice won't make sure the women in my life are prepared to handle adversity. I don't care about being nice I care about providing people with tools or perspectives they can work with. 

Now if we were to talk one on one I could sugar it up or butter it up if the bitter truth needs some assistance in digesting it. Trust me...if I could take the hits FOR YOU, I WOULD!!! BUT I CANNOT!!! So all I can do is point to the tool that we all know gets us out of depression. Depression =victim mindset. I've been there, more times than I can count in the past. And what eventually happens? After you finish licking your wounds, you realize you got to change your perspective to get yourself out of that rut. So what happens? You start to recontextualize your experience and start encouraging yourself and you start taking one step at a time.

I'm offering a way.. to potentially never getting depressed ever again. I'm not saying its easy, its a skill, it takes practice, but it is definitely doable....but there is one CAVEAT. Your ego has to DIE!!! Outside of that....then its just integration. 

[Razard86]

2 hours ago, Lila9 said:

There's no need to point out any of your biases. I would do that if I wasn't that lazy but unfortunately, I am.

You know very well what I'm talking about (hopefully, if you are self-aware enough), wait, don't tell me that you don't have biases at all 

Hey, you know what I'll be kind and make the effort:

Emotional reaction? What's wrong with emotional reaction? Why is it inferior to evidence? No, don't tell me that you are biased against emotional reactions?

I think that emotional reactions are flowing from the back door of your shadow so intensely. So cute and innocent. 

I genuinely don't understand what's your point here. I don't remember where I wrote that the absolute truth doesn't include pain and suffering? 

Now with God's permission I'm setting myself free from this tiring discussion. Good luck.

 

You just made my point, you are just here to railroad this thread and criticize and distract and are not adding anything meaningful to this discussion at all. All you are doing is claiming I am biased and when asked for examples...you provide none. NONE. So how can you even ask someone to improve or do better if you cannot even provide examples? You see?

Do you freaking see? Reading your post is a waste of time because you cannot even provide constructive criticism!!! You really sat there and made complaints... WITH NO RECCOMENDATIONS FOR IMPROVEMENT? Do you see how hypocritical you are? How can you even ask for something... if you can't spell out what you want!!! You see its posts like these....that amazes me why you waste your time even writing comments. Do you want attention that BADLY? You actually cannot provide any constructive feedback? Not ONE... NOT ONE SINGLE ONE?

 My gosh....you know what? I'm just going to block you because from my biased POV you are a troll. Troll confirmed and blocked. Have a nice day.

[Tyler Robinson]

2 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

You just made my point, you are just here to railroad this thread and criticize and distract and are not adding anything meaningful to this discussion at all. All you are doing is claiming I am biased and when asked for examples...you provide none. NONE. So how can you even ask someone to improve or do better if you cannot even provide examples? You see?

Do you freaking see? Reading your post is a waste of time because you cannot even provide constructive criticism!!! You really sat there and made complaints... WITH NO RECCOMENDATIONS FOR IMPROVEMENT? Do you see how hypocritical you are? How can you even ask for something... if you can't spell out what you want!!! You see its posts like these....that amazes me why you waste your time even writing comments. Do you want attention that BADLY? You actually cannot provide any constructive feedback? Not ONE... NOT ONE SINGLE ONE?

 My gosh....you know what? I'm just going to block you because from my biased POV you are a troll. Troll confirmed and blocked. Have a nice day.

Why don't you understand that telling someone that they're stuck in victim mindset is not empowering? 

 

[vladorion]

13 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

You just made my point, you are just here to railroad this thread and criticize and distract and are not adding anything meaningful to this discussion at all. All you are doing is claiming I am biased and when asked for examples...you provide none. NONE. So how can you even ask someone to improve or do better if you cannot even provide examples? You see?

Do you freaking see? Reading your post is a waste of time because you cannot even provide constructive criticism!!! You really sat there and made complaints... WITH NO RECCOMENDATIONS FOR IMPROVEMENT? Do you see how hypocritical you are? How can you even ask for something... if you can't spell out what you want!!! You see its posts like these....that amazes me why you waste your time even writing comments. Do you want attention that BADLY? You actually cannot provide any constructive feedback? Not ONE... NOT ONE SINGLE ONE?

 My gosh....you know what? I'm just going to block you because from my biased POV you are a troll. Troll confirmed and blocked. Have a nice day.

Don't you see that it's just you trolling yourself? 

[Razard86]

9 hours ago, integral said:

lmaoooo ok we need to make distinctions between words and how they are being used. Im NOT saying take responsibility for other peoples actions, im saying take responsibility for your interpretation of what is happening. 

Im starting to realize how vital this topic is to understand and map out. Its a transition point from Fixed to Growth mindset, Victim to Ownership mindset, (Things are happening to me) to (What is happening is an Interpretation) mindset, Level 1 awareness to Level 2 awareness.

If someone gaslights you or punch's you in the face then we can say you are a victim of a crime but the mindset "I am a victim, poor me, fuck the world" is an interpretation and how you choose to experience what is happening. You can take the punch positively or negatively, you can also have radically different viewpoints of what it means to be punched in the face.

Sadguru when punched in the face is not going to experience it like you or the average person. The point of saying this is to show a new way of living life to inspire someone to transition into that new way. A fixed mindset person will say "I am not sadguru stop comparing him to me", growth mindset "Of course why didn't I think of that earlier, there is a better way". 

"People who have a victim mentality have often suffered through trauma or hard times, but haven't developed a healthier way to cope. As a result, they develop a negative view of life, where they feel that they don't have any control over what happens to them."

Razard then took gaslighting to the next level that no one here is ready for and explained that just the deception that there is a other is to gaslight yourself. Its to use the word and concept gaslighting in the construct aware context. But then everyone else lost there nuts trying to bring it back down to a more familiar context. 

Not in any judgmental way do I say most people are not ready for construct aware conversations. A better strategy instead of debating is to play the construct aware conversation when it pops up for growth and fun. = To go meta on how we engage with people, to make it a choice. 

Razard is 100% aware of the default context of the use of the word gaslighting. Why spend energy "teaching" it to him. 

 

I'm glad you understand what I am saying. And yes I used that term specifically because I noticed how it was being used and weaponized on this forum and other places. So I wanted to show that there is a HEAVY IDENTIFICATION with that word which also means that there is deep trauma associated with the word. Many people who use it must have some shadow work related to very selfish people in the past who they have not healed from. What they don't realize is they are carrying that pain and projectile vomiting onto the present whenever something triggers them and accuse others of being the cause of those repressed feelings coming to the surface.

Does triggering feel good? HELL NO!! But....being aware that becoming triggered can bring to your awareness some unhealed pain...is GREAT for diving into some shadow work and integrating your shadow. This thread and this Spirituality Section is for that very purpose. I mean...we aren't playing games here right? We are here to do some real work!! 

Nothing I do here is out of ill will, those who accuse me of that...you aren't doing the work. 

Source: 

So even the people who troll are acting from good intentions. From their POV they are going after people who they think deserve to be trolled, or they are getting attention that they think in their environment they are being denied, and many other reasons. All for love. Doesn't mean you have to tolerate them but understand there actions are motivated by the same actions...survival. 

Anyway  thanks Integral...maybe you can calm this thread down....and help guide it towards some clarity.

 

[Razard86]

5 minutes ago, vladorion said:

Don't you see that it's just you trolling yourself? 

Yep and its why I choose to block myself. Its a fun game, like shadow boxing, or racing my ghost on a racing game. 

[Tyler Robinson]

1 minute ago, Razard86 said:

Yep and its why I choose to block myself. Its a fun game, like shadow boxing, or racing my ghost on a racing game. 

There's also something called healing and not just personal ownership.