A Term I Notice Gets Thrown Around Alot GASLIGHTING

[NoSelfSelf]

@Razard86 why would they become one? I dont see it...

I get what you saying but you havent read my post correctly its all nice when you dont know what it is...but in the end gaslighting is annoying and would avoid people doing that for my own good...

[integral]

@Tyler Robinson @CultivateLove thanks for the explanation. In all of does situations the victim had to be of a specific temperament to allow themselves to be manipulated by that person. Once people become knowledgable of gaslighting and can identify the pattern it is 100% their responsibility to not perceive them selves as the victim. When people have tried to manipulate me in the past in the same fashion as you describe I know the tricks they’re playing and don’t take it personally (victim role) because it’s a reflection of them not me. When you experience the conversation from a third person perspective the magic trick is revealed and you’re just another character in a play. 

Edited November 16, 2022 by integral

[Loving Radiance]

I understood gaslighting is when A puts their perspective higher than B, including putting pressure on the B to destruct and change their perspective according to A.

It is a useful description of describing what toxic things can go on for example in abusive dynamics. But as everything it can also get misused, you are right in that @Razard86.

Yes, B can weaponize and use the concept to create an identity of victim (not owning their own responsibility) and thus become the perpetrator lashing out at A. And so the drama continues.

23 hours ago, Razard86 said:

Because anytime you become unsure you must BLAME AN OTHER for those FEELINGS!!! Gaslighting can be summed up in one small phrase "When through an interaction you feel that your feelings (emotional state) is not being validated (agreed with) which is basically what compassion is (emotional validation). 

That is not Steel manning.

 

@universe @integralThank you ?

Edited November 16, 2022 by Loving Radiance

[Michael569]

9 hours ago, Roy said:

it's just a catchy buzzword that caught on in our culture, typically used by those with a victim mindset

^ 9/10 times I've seen it used exactly like this. 

1/10 the person was actually onto something

Edited November 16, 2022 by Michael569

[CultivateLove]

41 minutes ago, integral said:

In all of does situations the victim had to be of a specific temperament to allow themselves to be manipulated by that person.

That is such a poor way of putting it.

If you are not a trained martial artist, are you ALLOWING someone to beat the fuck out of you?

No, you are simply INCAPABLE of stopping them from doing it if they want to.

Same with gaslighting, you are either capable of seeing what is happening and putting an end to it one way or another, or you are not capable of it. Using the word "allowing" in this context is pure stupidity.

You can play word games all you want, but until you get beaten up, or raped, or mentally and emotionally abused by your spouse or your boss, are you not going to take them to court because you're too proud to be a "victim"? Or are you going to take them to court while not being a victim? You know being a victim isn't synonymous with being a crybaby, right? If you get stabbed for no reason, then the stabber by definition is the perpetrator, and you by definition are a victim, comprende?

It doesn't mean you have to cry about it, it doesn't mean you have to sulk about it and go down a downward spiral of self-pity, but it doesn't mean you can't hold that person accountable to their actions either.

Edited November 16, 2022 by CultivateLove

[Ulax]

I think its a useful concept to promote as the effects of the repeated behaviour gaslighting describes can be soul crippling.

Also, in a truer sense, I don't agree that its us who gaslights us. Or even the other person. Its that when someone gaslights another, the other person will often, as a survival mechanism, adapt their mind into a more traumatised state as a consequence.

Gaslight someone enough and they'll out their survival doubt whether they even have hands and legs.

[Yarco]

I've got warning points for gaslighting here (twice lol). But I'm sincere about everything I've ever posted. 

Maybe I'm delusional myself. But if I've been gaslit by someone else, is it really possible for me to gaslight another? How can you see into my mind to know if I'm trying to deceive people or if I'm sincere about my own beliefs?

If Alex Jones tells you that reptiles run the world but he actually believes it, that's not gaslighting?

If gaslighting is just making someone question their sanity, then all of non-dualism is gaslighting?

[Thought Art]

@Yarco Yes, those who gaslight can be gaslit. That’s often how it’s learned also. 
 

Gaslighting doesn’t even need to fully manipulate the person. Sometimes someone gaslights so you get defensive and then it throws off conversations etc

Like when someone blatantly straw mans and you or distorts your point. 

Edited November 16, 2022 by Thought Art

[Adam M]

On 15/11/2022 at 10:12 AM, Razard86 said:

https://thepsychologygroup.com/gaslighting-how-to-recognize-it-and-what-to-say-when-it-happens/

Read this article and notice that the definition for this term is vague, and it accuses another of "making" you doubt your reality. Notice the sneakiness involved in this term. Here is a kicker for you....and it will blow your mind. An OTHER has never gaslighted you EVER. The truth is YOU GASLIGHT YOU!!! Gaslighting is a term that EGOS love to use, to play the victim. If you ever accuse another of GASLIGHTING....in that moment YOU ARE GASLIGHTING YOU!!!

The irony!!! But you may say.....I don't believe you!! Right now I FEEL THAT YOUR STATEMENTS ARE ITSELF GASLIGHTING!!! Of course you do!!! Because anytime you become unsure you must BLAME AN OTHER for those FEELINGS!!! Gaslighting can be summed up in one small phrase "When through an interaction you feel that your feelings (emotional state) is not being validated (agreed with) which is basically what compassion is (emotional validation). 

Yeah I've noticed this too. As stage green becomes more and more prevalent... we will see more mis-use of psychological terms like gaslighting, projection, narcissist...

Narcissist is a funny one because many people think that others who are self-absorbed are narcissists.... but LOL isn't every single ego a narcissist? Even calling another person a narcissist is already implying that you aren't selfless enough to step into their shoes and understand their behavior.

Projection is a funny one too... often I'll make a comment about my opinion of someone or something and I'll be told: "that's your projection." No shit... all of existence is my projection. The existence of "other people" is my projection. The existence of the world itself is my projection. Everything is a fabricated story that is projected by God's mind onto Nothingness. What concept, thought, word, or story isn't a projection? 

[Razard86]

3 hours ago, something_else said:

Yes, but it's a tad annoying when you try to have a discussion and someone keeps moving to the absolute POV because you can literally always take the absolute POV and be correct, but it's usually not valuable to the discussion. Notice that Leo generally doesn't take an absolute POV in threads in the dating section or the politics section because it isn't called for and it's annoying when people do that. I know we are technically in the spirituality section but the topic isn't really spiritual so it still isn't called for.

People have to learn to see the absolute POV of their own accord, continually switching to that POV in the middle of relatively non-spiritual discussions isn't going to help them. If anything you will drive people away because it comes across as very arrogant and uncalibrated. You're also far more likely to instil it as just a belief in someone when you berate them with absolute POV rather than helping them to obtain that experience themselves.

Listen to what you just said...you said the absolute POV is correct but its not valuable? Is it that its not valuable....or are you assuming its not valuable? Here I will show you how you aren't being creative with it and thus do not see its value.

1. If you create meaning...if you are TRUTH, then you can train yourself to create meaning that is beneficial to what you desire. So for example...why is rejection HARD? Its hard because we create that meaning that rejection is hard. If you can become AWARE through practice...that YOU are creating suffering. Then you can overcome your fear of rejection. So explain to me how learning how you create meaning, and then controlling the meaning you apply is not VALUABLE? THERE IS NOTHING MORE VALUABLE THAN THIS!! WHY? BECAUSE YOU CREATE VALUE BY CREATING MEANING!!!

2. Value= Runs your life because your life is totally encased and encircled around survival. The problem is majority of that value you create haphazardly  and you apply it  unconsciously and as a result you become TRAPPED by the meaning and value you create!!! Why do you think people feel unworthy or not good enough? Because THEY CREATE THAT MEANING. They become victims of their ability to create meaning, and then craft beautifully and ingenious storylines as to why that meaning is CORRECT!! So you suffer your own ingenious intelligence as to why you are unworthy or not good enough!!

Do you not understand what I am presenting here? I am presenting you with the possibility...to control meaning...and to use it as a tool with your awareness instead of falling asleep and using it like a drunken writer who writes stories that he hates!!!

Edited November 16, 2022 by Razard86

[Razard86]

1 hour ago, Adam M said:

Yeah I've noticed this too. As stage green becomes more and more prevalent... we will see more mis-use of psychological terms like gaslighting, projection, narcissist...

Narcissist is a funny one because many people think that others who are self-absorbed are narcissists.... but LOL isn't every single ego a narcissist? Even calling another person a narcissist is already implying that you aren't selfless enough to step into their shoes and understand their behavior.

Projection is a funny one too... often I'll make a comment about my opinion of someone or something and I'll be told: "that's your projection." No shit... all of existence is my projection. The existence of "other people" is my projection. The existence of the world itself is my projection. Everything is a fabricated story that is projected by God's mind onto Nothingness. What concept, thought, word, or story isn't a projection? 

^You are getting it!!! I am so happy!!! The point it to realize this...and take back ownership of how you use meaning....and craft a story and character (your ego) to your liking. Take full responsibility for how you use the tool of meaning. I don't consciously control the events that transpire...but I do control the meaning I ascribe to them. If you can see through the veil of the webs of meaning you craft...then you can finally be the hero you always wanted to be in your own original story.

REALLY contemplate on what I am saying here. Deconstruct and recontextalize until you see life the way YOU want to see it, not how OTHERS are telling you to see it. Those OTHERS are just your own mind....you gonna let your thoughts run you? Or are you going to run them? You run them by controlling how you perceive them. You can perceive everything as good, bad, or neutral. THAT IS YOUR CHOICE. THAT IS WHAT FREE WILL IS. 

THIS IS WHAT LIBERATION IS!!! Because you recognize what true freedom is, its the freedom to view things how you desire. Most people use meaning unconsciously and compulsively, choose to do it consciously.

Edited November 16, 2022 by Razard86

[Rigel]

So gaslighting is one party lying and the other party believing it? 

[Razard86]

1 minute ago, Rigel said:

So gaslighting is one party lying and the other party believing it? 

Depends on which level you are discussing....from the absolute...life itself...is gaslighting. But to look at from the level you are asking it is both. Because first gaslighting has to be intential, a lie is only a lie when it is purposeful. You can't lie on accident, that is just ignorance. A lie is done knowing the information is false and given with full knowledge it is false.

So yes if the party lies on purpose and the person believes it then yes they are gaslighting them. Gaslight is a term that likes to be attributed to reality. So for example if I am a giving person, and I tell you no and you call me selfish and I believe....maybe I am not giving enough? That would be gaslighting. If that person is someone you always give too and they don't give back at all or rarely and the one time you tell them no, they call you selfish. But you....being a very giving person don't want to be perceived as selfish so you agree with them in an attempt to not  violate your identity as a giving person and give to them. So the person controls you out of your fear of being bad since you view not giving as bad and struggle to say "NO." 

Later on you BLAME them, and say they gaslighted you when in reality....you gaslighted yourself first. You know full and well you are a giving person and how can someone who is less giving accuse you of not giving enough? Its ridiculous right? But you....pursuing more and more levels of selflessness and denying your own selfishness because selfishness is bad....you give more than you are comfortable with. So you violated your own boundaries because you couldn't face your own judgment of being perceived as selfish.

The secret is...EVERYONE IS SELFISH!! So if they call you selfish...the correct response is yeah and so what? You are selfish too!!! This is not a battle the narcissist can beat you in....if you really wanted to be cruel...you could list everything you did for them and how they don't reciprocate. But again...you won't do that...because "that's bad." You see? You judge yourself and the narcissist can control you because they don't give a damn LOL.

True liberation...is to release yourself and others from judgment. Otherwise....you will either be a narcissist, or self-righteous. Which are polar opposites of the same coin.

[Thought Art]

2 hours ago, Rigel said:

So gaslighting is one party lying and the other party believing it? 

No, gaslighting is more nuanced. It can/ may involve lying in degrees. 
 

The key differences between a lie and gas lighting may go like this. 
 

You lie to your girlfriend about who you were hanging out with last night. She has no direct knowledge directly of what you did last night and so has to rely on your word. 
 

Gaslighting would be your girlfriend saw you making out with another girl. So you gaslight her that it wasn’t you. She has experience insight into what she saw but you gaslight her. Though that’s just one example. “No that wasn’t me. You are crazy. You were high and on drugs last night. You were just dreaming. It wasn’t me you can’t trust your own mind. Remember the last time you were wrong?”
 

Some gaslighting would be like, you say you like the colour red and then the person goes “So you hate yellow? I knew you would like red and hate yellow. You fucking hate yellow. Yes you do! You just said you liked red so you must hate yellow!” And they don’t back down as you argue with them. 
 

Sometimes people lie when they gaslight, sometimes they are just epistemologically lazy, ignorant, etc

Edited November 16, 2022 by Thought Art

[Tyler Robinson]

@Razard86 you are not understanding the mechanics of manipulation.. When someone is manipulated its because they are unaware that it's manipulation. Only the manipulator is to be blamed.

You can't say that "you allowed yourself to be manipulated" because that person just wasn't aware that it's manipulation in the first place. 

 

[Tyler Robinson]

6 hours ago, integral said:

@Tyler Robinson @CultivateLove thanks for the explanation. In all of does situations the victim had to be of a specific temperament to allow themselves to be manipulated by that person. Once people become knowledgable of gaslighting and can identify the pattern it is 100% their responsibility to not perceive them selves as the victim. When people have tried to manipulate me in the past in the same fashion as you describe I know the tricks they’re playing and don’t take it personally (victim role) because it’s a reflection of them not me. When you experience the conversation from a third person perspective the magic trick is revealed and you’re just another character in a play. 

If even after explaining everything you, you still don't understand things then I can't help you. Once a person has identified a pattern of gaslighting then they are obviously going to dump the gaslighter

They are not aware that they are being gaslighted. Why is this so hard? 

[Tyler Robinson]

7 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

You misuse spirituality to hurt people. You're just being toxic. You don't communicate from a pure place of Love but from a very egoic place. 

I suggest you, before you point out your fingers on others biases, to check your own biases first towards women, vulnerability, weakness, gaslighting and many other terms you use against people.

Female partner? Lol

Couldn't agree more. He has a shadow against anyone who has suffered in some way. 

I think deep down he fears that he would be labeled in similar ways as women label men who mistreat them. So he goes way beyond to preemptively defend himself and overcompensate his ego being bruised in the future. 

I like his posts but he subconsciously engages in a lot of victim blaming. 

It's one thing to recognize patterns of victim playing in people and wanting people to step out of victim mindset and take personal ownership but it's another to completely invalidate genuine victims.. I don't know how that is empowering. 

 

[Tyler Robinson]

3 hours ago, Rigel said:

So gaslighting is one party lying and the other party believing it? 

It does involve lying. But it's not as simple as believing a liar. You trust that person and so basically you take their word thinking that they mean the best for you. Would you assume that your husband or wife doesn't want the best for you? Since you place your trust in the other person, it becomes easier for them to manipulate this trust, convince you of a lie and basically violate this trust to cause intentional harm. You only realize that they are being harmful when the harm is done and then you begin to move away from them. 

If your wife calls you and informs you that she is in the hospital with a broken arm, would your first instinct be — "oh, she must be lying." Try to think along those lines. 

Gaslighting is not simply lying, it's blatant violation of the trust that someone puts in your word and emotional abuse by violating this trust. 

 

[Tyler Robinson]

3 hours ago, Razard86 said:

o be intential, a lie is only a lie when it is purposeful. You can't lie on accident, that is just ignorance. A lie is done knowing the information is false and given with full knowledge it is false.

You can lie on accident. 

You make up shit out of thin air, it gets annoying. Research a bit before you start typing. 

Accidental lying is called confabulation. Look it up. 

And I'm a pathological liar. Ask me. I know this sounds like an oxymoron but life is a paradox of sorts. You don't know shit about lying. Lying can also be unintentional which I do all the time. Lying can also be an indication of anxiety and trauma. Many people lie not to deceive but to protect themselves from being judged, that is out of shame and fear. 

You really need to start reading books and articles and not be in your head all the time. That is if you really mean well

 

 

Edited November 16, 2022 by Tyler Robinson

[something_else]

5 hours ago, Razard86 said:

Listen to what you just said...you said the absolute POV is correct but its not valuable? Is it that its not valuable....or are you assuming its not valuable? Here I will show you how you aren't being creative with it and thus do not see its value.

1. If you create meaning...if you are TRUTH, then you can train yourself to create meaning that is beneficial to what you desire. So for example...why is rejection HARD? Its hard because we create that meaning that rejection is hard. If you can become AWARE through practice...that YOU are creating suffering. Then you can overcome your fear of rejection. So explain to me how learning how you create meaning, and then controlling the meaning you apply is not VALUABLE? THERE IS NOTHING MORE VALUABLE THAN THIS!! WHY? BECAUSE YOU CREATE VALUE BY CREATING MEANING!!!

2. Value= Runs your life because your life is totally encased and encircled around survival. The problem is majority of that value you create haphazardly  and you apply it  unconsciously and as a result you become TRAPPED by the meaning and value you create!!! Why do you think people feel unworthy or not good enough? Because THEY CREATE THAT MEANING. They become victims of their ability to create meaning, and then craft beautifully and ingenious storylines as to why that meaning is CORRECT!! So you suffer your own ingenious intelligence as to why you are unworthy or not good enough!!

Do you not understand what I am presenting here? I am presenting you with the possibility...to control meaning...and to use it as a tool with your awareness instead of falling asleep and using it like a drunken writer who writes stories that he hates!!!

I’m sorry, but I feel this post reads very rambely. I think you need to constrain your points a bit more if you want them to be understood.

I think you make good points that are valuable for others to hear but this was originally a thread about gaslighting and you are referencing 4 or 5 other areas of life in this response that I don’t have the energy to try and understand.

Edited November 16, 2022 by something_else