Why does karma punish people like this?

[Loba]

3 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

No.  I was saying it's foolish to complain about the natural order of things.  Healthy people shouldn't be demonised, they're not the problem.

Well, that's not what you said directly, but okay, I'll give it to you as I agree with this statement.  They are not the problem and should not be demonized.  

5 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

If Leo was less evolved and happen to agree with people like OP, this place would literally become 4chan.  An echo chamber of ideas that makes its participants feel good about themselves.

Well, in some sense it is that.  Just with a certain brand of spirituality that everyone here seems to agree on.  Alien lemming Buddhism, I suppose.

5 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

Again, I never said they should die, just stop blaming others and getting angry that their ego isn't getting what it wants.  People like OP believe that God should give them an easy life, and whenever life's hard they become confused and angry.  "Why would god do this to me?!" refusing to take responsibility themselves.

Agree with this.  People do think they are owed more than they are, but I do get it as when life gets hard sometimes I get angry, too.  The only caveat is that I take the time to introspect on why once I'm calm.  That said, though, we should have a system in place for people who can't care for themselves.  Most people should not blame others, but someone who is so ill that they can't function in society does deserve to at least get the basics.  Although no one is deserved everything, I think the minimum should be the freedom to be safe and out of harms way within a civilized society.

8 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

Well that's just silly.  Karma is purely just a human invention.  Who would govern the laws of Karma?  Who would keep them updated?  Does eating pork give you bad karma?  If so, under what circumstances?  And who decides?  And who cares and why?  Who is affected for the judger to be emotionally invested enough to punish you for your actions?  The judger, if it existed, wouldn't be human, nor have human emotions, nor have the slightest interest what the humans do.  Our realm is our realm because it is our realm and not the realm of some mystical deities and belongs only to us.  There is nothing but us here, no supreme karmic judge gods or whatever.

Carefully examine where your belief in karma comes from.  When did you first start believing in this fictional being?  Why do you take comfort from this belief?  Do you truly believe the universe couldn't possibly exist without this karma currency?  That this currency is a fundamental part of reality and plants/life/consciousness couldn't form without it even given an infinite amount of time?

It really isn't.  It is a manifestation of the actions you have taken in life.  Who governs the laws of karma?  Not sure, I haven't gotten that far, I just know it when I can feel it in my environment working around me.  Does eating pork give you bad karma?  I don't know, it depends on how the animal was killed and your level of knowing if eating an animal killed improperly is wrong.  Innocence is taken into account, but once you are aware and know, then you are expected to make adjustments.  Who decides?  Not sure, I just feel it.  Who cares and why?  You will when you get to the end of the line and can see the evaluation happening all around you.  It takes some skill to be able to parse it.  Actions have consequences, some foreseen, some not, there's really no way to deny it.  It is the realm to many different things.  Most of us only use our basic senses.  Some people can experience more than that.

It isn't a belief, it is something that I feel when I do my work that impacts me in my day to day.  Rather than asking me questions about something you don't believe in and are closed minded to, ask yourself why you don't have any understanding in a thing that has been in great detail recorded within human history?  You don't need to take my word for it.  It doesn't really matter to me, when you experience it at the end of your life, you will know what it is.  Until then, live how you want, it isn't my "karma" to try and change your beliefs about something you're shut away from.  If you are, there's probably a reason for it.  When you see it, it will come into your life in many ways, not just as some "being", but the momentum of activity that your life has created on this earth and the effects that it caused for yourself and others.

I don't really need to prove it to you, you'll get there eventually, we all have to face the outcome of our actions.

[thisintegrated]

Would be nice to get @Leo Gura's views on all this?

 

4 minutes ago, Loba said:

Well, that's not what you said directly, but okay, I'll give it to you as I agree with this statement.  They are not the problem and should not be demonized.  

I updated my post, so check if you've missed anything.

 

7 minutes ago, Loba said:

It isn't a belief, it is something that I feel when I do my work that impacts me in my day to day.  Rather than asking me questions about something you don't believe in and are closed minded to, ask yourself why you don't have any understanding in a thing that has been in great detail recorded within human history?  You don't need to take my word for it.  It doesn't really matter to me, when you experience it at the end of your life, you will know what it is.  Until then, live how you want, it isn't my "karma" to try and change your beliefs about something you're shut away from.  If you are, there's probably a reason for it.  When you see it, it will come into your life in many ways, not just as some "being", but the momentum of activity that your life has created on this earth and the effects that it caused for yourself and others.

I don't really need to prove it to you, you'll get there eventually, we all have to face the outcome of our actions.

So basically you're saying.. "I feel this is true, so I know it is"?

As a Green kid my views were pretty much identical to yours.  I "felt" that reincarnation, souls, karma, etc. must be real.  But that's just religion 2.0.  These are not things you can believe for or against, that's naiive.  They're much more complicated than existing absolutely or not existing absolutely.

Edited November 14, 2022 by thisintegrated

[Tyler Robinson]

23 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

No.  I was saying it's foolish to complain about the natural order of things.  Healthy people shouldn't be demonised, they're not the problem.

 

If Leo was less evolved and happened to agree with people like OP, this place would literally become 4chan.  An echo chamber of ideas that makes its participants feel good about themselves.

 

Again, I never said they should die, just stop blaming others and getting angry that their ego isn't getting what it wants.  People like OP believe that God should give them an easy life, and whenever life's hard they become confused and angry.  "Why would god do this to me?!" refusing to take responsibility themselves.

 

A human is capable of understanding to the extent that is beneficial to a human.

 

Well that's just silly.  Karma is purely just a human invention.  Who would govern the laws of Karma?  Who would keep them updated?  Does eating pork give you bad karma?  If so, under what circumstances?  And who decides?  And who cares and why?  Who is affected for the judger to be emotionally invested enough to punish you for your actions?  The judger, if it existed, wouldn't be human, nor have human emotions, nor have the slightest interest what the humans do.  Our realm is our realm because it is our realm and not the realm of some mystical deities and belongs only to us.  There is nothing but us here, no supreme karmic judge gods or whatever.

Carefully examine where your belief in karma comes from.  When did you first start believing in this fictional being?  Why do you take comfort from this belief?  Do you truly believe the universe couldn't possibly exist without this karma currency?  That this currency is a fundamental part of reality and plants/life/consciousness couldn't form without it even given an infinite amount of time?

 

Karma isn't nature.  Karma is like eating pork, and your religion telling you this is good or bad, or swearing and your mum punishing you.  Nature isn't like this.  Nature doesn't care about your religion or beliefs or if you kill someone for the fun of it.  Do not confuse the two.  There are infinite valid perspectives, and there's absolutely no reason why murdering kids would be bad karma.  Your Fi isn't anyone else's Fi, so how could anything give you bad karma when your good actions are seen as good by some people and bad by others, and your bad actions are seen as bad by some people and good by others?!

 

Hitler was killing jews out of love for what he believed in.  By karmic law, this was a great good and so he must be in upper-heaven rn or something.  

If you disagree with this, and say it's the result and not the intention that decides karma, then that's even worse.  That would mean if you help me but that greatly inconveniences someone else, then you'd get bad karma despite your good intentions.

I agree a lot with whatever @Loba says. Karma exists. Good leads to good and bad leads to bad. You might not want to imagine karmic judger Gods but think of it as a Universe as an everflowing stream of consciousness that has already laid down the rules that comply with morality and when these rules are not obeyed the consequences of such immoral deviations are felt automatically like tectonic plates during an earthquake.

 

[Loba]

1 minute ago, Tyler Robinson said:

I agree a lot with whatever @Loba says. Karma exists. Good leads to good and bad leads to bad. You might not want to imagine karmic judger Gods but think of it as a Universe as an everflowing stream of consciousness that has already laid down the rules that comply with morality and when these rules are not obeyed the consequences of such immoral deviations are felt automatically like tectonic plates during an earthquake.

That's a good description of it.  I can't really explain it better than that.  If they are interested, I can only offer the route to getting there which is to look at your death accurately.  Literally get up close and personal with it as a phenomenon that is right there, waiting, and within it holds the records of the actions that you have taken in life.  Depending on the energetic output you get from it, you can make tweaks into how you want your actions to move you.  If there is something negative, you can record it in whatever form it takes for you.  The thing is, when it comes to karma, just like spirituality, it is individualized, so even how it manifests is going to be symbolically different for each person.

The only way to get there, to really get into the underpinnings of karma is to face your actions head on in some form and see what they have to say directly, debate generally won't do anything and it's just more outwards looking processes - totally the wrong alignment for witnessing karma - and it can come about in many ways - entities, energies, signs, a feeling in your gut, etc.  It is the same inwards process as remote viewing.  Do that, only with your death.

[thisintegrated]

5 minutes ago, Tyler Robinson said:

I agree a lot with whatever @Loba says. Karma exists. Good leads to good and bad leads to bad. You might not want to imagine karmic judger Gods but think of it as a Universe as an everflowing stream of consciousness that has already laid down the rules that comply with morality and when these rules are not obeyed the consequences of such immoral deviations are felt automatically like tectonic plates during an earthquake.

Try reading what I wrote too.

And try to refute the last bit you quoted.

[Proserpina]

Karma comes.  Its comes intimately, its comes like a good friend who knows what is best for you. It can come as a person, or a force.  Energy work.  Subtle forces are always at work, behind the scenes. 

[thisintegrated]

15 minutes ago, Loba said:

That's a good description of it.  I can't really explain it better than that.  If they are interested, I can only offer the route to getting there which is to look at your death accurately.  Literally get up close and personal with it as a phenomenon that is right there, waiting, and within it holds the records of the actions that you have taken in life.  Depending on the energetic output you get from it, you can make tweaks into how you want your actions to move you.  If there is something negative, you can record it in whatever form it takes for you.  The thing is, when it comes to karma, just like spirituality, it is individualized, so even how it manifests is going to be symbolically different for each person.

The only way to get there, to really get into the underpinnings of karma is to face your actions head on in some form and see what they have to say directly, debate generally won't do anything and it's just more outwards looking processes - totally the wrong alignment for witnessing karma - and it can come about in many ways - entities, energies, signs, a feeling in your gut, etc.  It is the same inwards process as remote viewing.  Do that, only with your death.

You should really start listening to Bashar.

Feelings get you thinking in the right general direction, but they fail at accuracy.

You're right in that something like karma exists, but your vocabulary and interpretations are way off.  What does exist is better referred to as "vibration" or "law of attraction".  "You can only experience that which you are a vibration of".  That's how reality works, but this has absolutely nothing to do with Karma, even though the general idea you were subconsciously connecting to was correct.

Fi is great at some stuff, but alone it's out of balance.  The Ti stuff I talk about, which you hate, isn't optional.

Edited November 14, 2022 by thisintegrated

[Loba]

4 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

You should really start listening to Bashar.

Feelings get you thinking in the right general direction, but they fail at accuracy.

You're right in that something like karma exists, but your vocabulary and interpretations are way off.  What does exist is better referred to as "vibration" or "law of attraction".  "You can only experience that which you are a vibration of".  That's how reality works, but this has absolutely nothing to do with Karma, even though the general idea you were subconsciously connecting to was correct.

I've listened to some of his stuff, but I can't afford his full lectures.

As for inaccuracy - I can draw from my inner well and make changes, but the task of explaining it to another person or even putting into words what I am feeling/seeing is not always easy.  It's taking something that is often an outwards manifestation i.e., I don't just sit with ideas or emotions, but I see it working within the world as a force of activity, but then putting it down in a way that that makes sense is hard.  And for me, when I do my work, it is so deep within my own process, that I will get clues and easter eggs that are only things that make sense to me.

I've heard of both of these terms, but haven't looked into them in any great degree.  I will take a look.  Meanwhile, take a look at karma and see if you can find it working when you do your remote viewing, wait for when death calls to you and see what it has to say.  They could be one and the same, but just with different terminology.  I believe they are probably all intertwined.  Karma could just be another term for the same thing.

[Proserpina]

There are people who act as a vessels for karma.  If they value their peace of mind they must act in right action and so they act out as karmic vessels.  They work with energy.  They intimately understand the process, ways and attitude of karma.  

[thisintegrated]

16 minutes ago, Loba said:

I've listened to some of his stuff, but I can't afford his full lectures.

Well I wouldn't expect anyone to fly to one of his talks just to see him in person.  Watching him on youtube is just as good.

 

Quote

As for inaccuracy - I can draw from my inner well and make changes, but the task of explaining it to another person or even putting into words what I am feeling/seeing is not always easy.  It's taking something that is often an outwards manifestation i.e., I don't just sit with ideas or emotions, but I see it working within the world as a force of activity, but then putting it down in a way that that makes sense is hard.  And for me, when I do my work, it is so deep within my own process, that I will get clues and easter eggs that are only things that make sense to me.

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"

 

Quote

I've heard of both of these terms, but haven't looked into them in any great degree.  I will take a look.  Meanwhile, take a look at karma and see if you can find it working when you do your remote viewing, wait for when death calls to you and see what it has to say.  They could be one and the same, but just with different terminology.  I believe they are probably all intertwined.  Karma could just be another term for the same thing.

As arrogant as it will sound, I am too aware to "believe" in karma.  I'm aware of myself as God, and of everything I create on levels beyond the ego, as God.  I can directly feel every consequence of every action I make, and how I'm the one who decides what those consequences are.

I would suggest you try to see if there's any correlation at all between your own morals and what you get punished for.  I think you'll find they're one and the same thing.

 

8 minutes ago, Proserpina said:

There are people who act as a vessels for karma.  If they value their peace of mind they must act in right action and so they act out as karmic vessels.  They work with energy.  They intimately understand the process, ways and attitude of karma.  

I feel like you're just throwing words out there without really knowing what you're saying.

I'm an energy worker.  I understand all the terms.  Still no idea what you're trying to say.

 

Edited November 14, 2022 by thisintegrated

[Proserpina]

6 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

I feel like you're just throwing words out there without really knowing what you're saying.

I'm an energy worker.  I understand all the terms.  Still no idea what you're trying to say.

What happened to you recently?  You used to be kinder in your posting.  I'm just assuming that lately, you've been going through something.  You've given me nothing to respond to here, you've just made a global attack on the sourcing of my writings and I'm not sure how to respond to this or whether it merits a response from me. 

[thisintegrated]

8 minutes ago, Proserpina said:

What happened to you recently?  You used to be kinder in your posting.  I'm just assuming that lately, you've been going through something.  You've given me nothing to respond to here, you've just made a global attack on the sourcing of my writings and I'm not sure how to respond to this or whether it merits a response from me. 

You're right, my bad.

It's my meds + stress from losing thousands per day due to recession, lol

I never normally post sober, but I'm out of everything.

Edited November 14, 2022 by thisintegrated

[Loba]

43 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"

That's not entirely true.  If you're too set in your own perspective to meet someone in the middle, then it isn't just a matter of how I explain it.  It's just a matter of knowing that any interpretation I give you is a waste of my time.  You already made up your mind.

43 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

As arrogant as it will sound, I am too aware to "believe" in karma.  I'm aware of myself as God, and of everything I create on levels beyond the ego, as God.  I can directly feel every consequence of every action I make, and how I'm the one who decides what those consequences are.

I would suggest you try to see if there's any correlation at all between your own morals and what you get punished for.  I think you'll find they're one and the same thing.

Honestly, once people get into this whole "I see myself as God" stuff, I tend to tune it out, just as you do with karma because I see a matching arrogance with most of the people who claim this level of self-awareness - when I've been taught that humility is a key component - and with most of these folks there is not enough proof within their homework to make up for it - there's also often a kind of a disconnect that wouldn't be there if someone were connected to the source in such a way, you would probably be feeling the interconnected Love from everything and everyone, like being spoon fed divine insight.

There isn't a correlation between my own morals, no.  In fact, much of the advice on what you have given me on what I need to do isn't even interpreted accurately for what I am trying to explain to you - you're interpretation of what I am saying is very surface level.  The advice just isn't on the mark.  Often, I think I am doing something morally correct and follow with what I think is the right action just for those forces to intercede - when I have an awakening, or when I take on a new perspective or when I face my death and can see if the action feels "light" or "dark" - with one there is an illumination in the outer environment and divine insight and with the other it is more like an inner darkness and a sense of corrosion.  If it were as easy as simply being able to follow my own moral code, then this would be a whole lot easier, but it's more like uncovering an already set system and not having the instructions for it, you're putting the parts together in the dark, and if you get it wrong it either zaps you or gives you a cookie.  In fact, I recently followed something with what I felt was morality only to be bitch slapped by reality for not having the entire perspective.  Personal morality is very narrow.  If that were the case, I could move in any way that I wanted, or just change my morals to suit my needs.  It never works this way for me.  When doing energy work/manifestation - there are set natural laws that need to be respected and I find them out by working in a certain direction, and then feeling for the reverberation of my echo - and depending on the output from my sewn seeds, this tells me if what I have done is good or bad.  When I bring awareness and light to that action, assuming the response to my echo was a negative one, then this opens a positive pathway.  So you see, unlike with a personal set system of morality, this universal morality offers me expansion.  Personal morality is like... playing within one's own bubble.  Personal morality would be like me getting to decide what is right or wrong, putting my own system in place for that - in which case, if I did that - and I have tried that by the way - the outcome would be negative as it goes against what already is.

An example of this - I recently was working with a being for a long while, who was offering me a lot of insight into this process.  I thought I was doing things correctly and went straightforward in my interpretations of it, not looking at alternating views to see if I needed to integrate more, or if I was not even coming at this in the right way.  My intentions were "mostly" pure.  But despite good intentions, it still went "South" - literally, as the road to Hell is paved in good intentions, is it not?  I was reprimanded.  I was told that manifestation in the name of desire over Love isn't the ingredient needed in order to transmute the energy I am working with.  You could even liken karma to the alchemical process of transmuting something dark and black into the light of the sun.  The truth is, you can have all the good intentions in the world and if you are not oriented in the right way, it won't set properly.

As for being an energy worker, if I get into it in such a way, I've had a handful of people who have mentioned extremely similar paths from their own walkways - completely separate from mine without any inspiration.  Over the years this has happened maybe five times, where the roads intersected hit uncanny valley levels of commonality.  I actually understand what Proserpina is saying quite well, she's one of the people here who's paths had a lot of common features.

P.S. - sorry to hear about your money and not feeling well, hope it gets better for you!

Edited November 14, 2022 by Loba

[thisintegrated]

2 minutes ago, Loba said:

There isn't a correlation between my own morals, no.

Now that's not even possible.

So if you raped a child, you wouldn't get bad karma.

If you steal cash from your friend's house, you won't get bad karma?

 

4 minutes ago, Loba said:

she's one of the people here who's paths had a lot of common features.

What

 

5 minutes ago, Loba said:

I was told that manifestation in the name of desire over Love isn't the ingredient needed in order to transmute the energy I am working with.

And this didn't make any sense to you, personally?  This karma was forced upon you?

I think it's much more likely this reasoning is something you yourself came up with, something that resonated with you.  But not necessarily consciously, which I think is why you can't believe anyone claiming to have had experiences beyond the ego.  You're likely out of touch with the higher levels of your consciousness.  Being a Fi, you don't care too much about the mechanics of reality, but a deep interest in this is the only way to actually "wake up".  Fi serves your human needs, but becoming god isn't a human need, it's completely useless to you, as a human.  Enlightenment won't make your ego feel good, and it won't put food on the table, so it's not something that happens unless you REALLY work for it.  Unless you put years/decades of serious work into this, like me or Leo, you'll never understand what actualization is all about, and all this God talk will sound crazy.

 

[Heart of Space]

Guys, I understand why people would get upset watching this a little bit.  But just see it as the absurd spectacle that it is.  

You don't have to see it as this massively evil thing.  Cause it's not.  He's more just dumb and selfish.  The girl he's talking about is naïve and superficial.  

Basically, he's a rich douche.  Why all these talks of damnation through karma?  It's a bit of an overreaction.  

 

Edited November 14, 2022 by Heart of Space

[Heart of Space]

@Loba  Are you certain that you aren't just creating karma yourself because you hold yourself to a higher standard?  

[Ulax]

Because, imo, karma is not about whether people get punished for their actions, instead they get punished by their actions.

You do not get punished by your anger, you get punished for your anger.

[Loba]

9 hours ago, Heart of Space said:

@Loba  Are you certain that you aren't just creating karma yourself because you hold yourself to a higher standard?  

Whatever you wanna think, I don't have the time/energy to explain this stuff to people you'll either find it or you won't.  There are resources out there, I've described the phenomenon in enough detail that anyone who wants to even check it out for themselves can simply just go within and see what comes up for them, but for whatever reason the onus is on me to prove folk's personal karma, and most of you should know that isn't how it works.  Find your own brand of what works for you, but trying to discredit or put into place certain aspects of another person's awakening that are not there isn't really the way to go about it - it's just annoying for the person receiving it.

10 hours ago, Heart of Space said:

Basically, he's a rich douche.  Why all these talks of damnation through karma?  It's a bit of an overreaction.  

I'm just explaining how karma works, I couldn't care less about the video, the OP is asking if people get caught up in their karma and I say yes, this is what's up.

But I'm also, as a byproduct of my own karma, seeing how people who don't have experience in something talk over a person, introject their own opinions and ideas into that person's worldview, their own motives for what the person must be explaining.  In order to not have to waste my time going in circles, if I see this kind of communication, I'm just going to cut it short because it isn't a form of meeting in the middle and it becomes more clear the more the conversation pans out.

It's almost as annoying as being falsely accused, it runs along the same dysfunctional line.

I found this show last night, this scene seems to describe it in a decent enough detail.

Later.

Edited November 14, 2022 by Loba

[Heart of Space]

@Loba  I won't lie, you come across very self-centered.  You write extremely long posts about yourself, your opinions, your perceptions.  Posts that most likely no one else reads fully.  They skim, because it's too cumbersome to read them.  

You don't realize this apparently because you're too busy feeling yourself.   I literally just see a wall of text "me me me me  me me my opinions me me me me me me me."  But imagine as long as your posts. 

You could easily be more concise.  And you would be if you actually cared about having a decent two way conversation on this forum. But you probably don't, you have bad case of the spiritual narcissism.  

Edited November 14, 2022 by Heart of Space

[Loba]

2 minutes ago, Heart of Space said:

@Loba  I won't lie, you come across very self-centered.  You write extremely long posts about yourself, your opinions, your perceptions.  Posts that most likely no one else reads fully.  They skim, because it's too cumbersome to read them.  

You don't realize this apparently because you're too busy feeling yourself.   I literally just see a wall of text "me me me me  me me my opinions me me me me me me me."  But imagine as long as your posts. 

You could easily be more concise.  And you would be if you actually cared about having a decent two way conversation on this forum. But you probably don't, you have bad case of the spiritual narcissism.  

I don't mind if they don't read them.  My self centeredness is average, but you seem to enjoy attacking others on here and can't seem to see that yourself.  As for me, I have grown quite a lot while here, and in the real world and have let up on this self centeredness to quite a degree, but it comes from having limited time on this earth and needing to find answers a bit sooner than others.  I write from personal experiences going through this process and have things to say on the matter.

I have noticed you doing odd things as well, such as posting pictures of women that you've dated without their permission not only in posts but as your avatar, posting racist commentary here - and now here you are putting me down for really no reason, so who's the narcissist?  You simply don't know me well enough to make that judgement, you just don't like the way I write - that it does come from a self referential and reflective process.

Interestingly, you had posted here a few years about suicide and I gave you some advice that you took to heart, I guess when someone makes a boundary about how they wish to communicate with others that they are a narcissist then?  Such things are genuine problems that people face and you shouldn't just throw spiritual narcissism or any form of it out there without knowing first if the person has it or not.  Your judgement on another person's style or how they conduct themselves is not the end all be all to decide this.

But... if you want to feel that I do, it isn't my place to decide for you.  So feel free with the personal attacks.  If you don't want to read what I have to write or you think it is too long, well... by all means, feel that way.  It isn't really up to me.  But seeing that this is your general demeanor, I probably won't interact with you on here again.

Have a good one.