Regular Old Enlightened Folk Vs Mysterious Edgy Mystics.

[Prabhaker]

2 minutes ago, Key Elements said:

Interesting...could you pls explain or give a few examples? I'm still not clear on this.

When you do anything, you can do it meditatively. You can practice mindfulness in any work. 

... but when you are using psychic energy, you have to use your will, this use can't be effortless, you can't remain witness to it.

[Prabhaker]

1 minute ago, Loreena said:

Why even drag Jesus Christ into this. How a person can compare Jesus to someone like Osho is beyond me. Jesus never touched Mary Magdalene.

It is strange that you can certify that Jesus never touched Mary Magdalene ! I am sure you have not seen Osho touching a women's breasts, but you happily jumped to the conclusion he was touching young naive women's breasts that too because of lust.

How a person can compare Osho to someone like Jesus is beyond me. When Jesus was alive he has twelve poor illiterate disciples, these twelve idiots left him when he was crucified. Osho had ten million disciples when he was alive, well educated and intelligent. 

 

[Loreena]

50 minutes ago, Prabhaker said:

It is strange that you can certify that Jesus never touched Mary Magdalene ! I am sure you have not seen Osho touching a women's breasts, but you happily jumped to the conclusion he was touching young naive women's breasts that too because of lust.

How a person can compare Osho to someone like Jesus is beyond me. When Jesus was alive he has twelve poor illiterate disciples, these twelve idiots left him when he was crucified. Osho had ten million disciples when he was alive, well educated and intelligent.

 

I have not jumped to any conclusion. If there are many people who have reported things that they have witnessed and recorded them in their books, then they are not all liars looking to defame a so called holy man. There is just too much about Osho that cannot be discredited.

By the way, you might want to read what Christopher Hitchens had to say about Osho in 'God is not Great'. I am not an atheist myself but it is worth reading.

if it were not for the great and alert American Law Enforcement, the great land of Rajneeshpuram would have become a witness to another Jim Jones style debacle !!

Edited February 24, 2017 by Loreena

[Prabhaker]

2 minutes ago, Loreena said:

if it were not for the great and alert American Law Enforcement, the great land of Rajneeshpuram would have become a witness to another Jim Jones style debacle !!

What happened in Jonestown was absolutely Christian, but not even a single person in the world has talked about the fact that it was a Christian phenomenon, that Christianity was its background, that Jim Jones was a reverend, that he was a Christian priest, and the people who followed him simply followed according to the Christian ideology.

Of course, they went to the very logical end. Jesus says to his people: ”After death there will be judgment day, and I will be there to pick my people. And only those who are with me will be saved; all others will be thrown into the eternal darkness of hell.”

Reverend Jim Jones was continually teaching the BIBLE, Christianity, and of course he was teaching that real life begins after death. And if he convinced those fools, one thousand fools, it is nothing to be surprised at: they were all Christians. The gospel was Christian, and if he convinced them to die with him ... why wait for the judgment day?

And on the judgment day there is going to be so much of a crowd – poor Jim Jones, how is he going to find his one thousand followers? It will be really difficult. The best way is: Jim Jones dies and with him his followers die. And they will reach the gates of heaven with God and Jesus Christ and all the apostles shouting, ”Alleluia!” This is far better, quicker.

Other Christians have waited for two thousand years but the judgment day has not come yet. And if you read Jesus, his disciples asking again and again, ”When will the judgment day come?” and he says, ”Soon.” The whole indication is that it is going to happen within your life. Now, twenty centuries have passed; it has not happened. Nobody asks the pope, ”What about the judgment day? Jesus was saying, ‘Soon.’ What do you mean by ‘soon’?” At least it should be explained how many centuries, how many generations .... ”Soon” cannot be extended that much.

But Christian bishops and cardinals and priests are comparing Osho with Jim Jones. In churches, sermons were delivered and it was said that Rajneeshpuram was going to become a second Jonestown. Now, who is going to say to these fools that this was the only place which cannot become Jonestown? The whole rest of the world can become – because Osho was not interested in the afterlife, he was only interested in life here, now.

12 minutes ago, Loreena said:

Jim Jones style debacle

You will be surprised to know that in Jonestown, lovemaking among the members of the sect was not allowed. Celibacy was enforced. There were hard strict rules: the people were not allowed to go outside the commune, no contact with outsiders was allowed. They were living in isolation, they were all ascetics.
And it is because of this asceticism that they were ready to commit suicide. Now people are searching for the causes. Somebody thinks that he hypnotized people, somebody thinks something else—a thousand and one reasons are being found. The simple reason is, he diverted their eros—that's all. And eros can be diverted very easily….just like in christian monasteries, where monks don't suicide but practice of homosexuality is well known. 

[Nahm]

The difference you find in them, is equally in you.

[Key Elements]

9 hours ago, Prabhaker said:

When you do anything, you can do it meditatively. You can practice mindfulness in any work. 

... but when you are using psychic energy, you have to use your will, this use can't be effortless, you can't remain witness to it.

Although I get what you're saying, I'm not sure if this applies to every single person in the world.

[Guest Annetta]

I don't know what the difference is as far as effectiveness goes.
Just kind of use whoever's teaching happen to be there at the time that I'm inquiring about a particular issue.

Maybe for some of them they have made up an image to appeal to an audience that has a certain expectation of how a spiritual teacher is supposed to look?  Maybe it's part of the Eastern culture to dress like they do, and not so much in the West?

Edited February 24, 2017 by Whywolf

[Deep]

15 hours ago, Loreena said:

I don't know why people consider Osho and Sadhguru as "Enlightened". That's like putting them on a pedestal, at least in my opinion. They are like teachers and gurus who say wise things, but that's it.Osho was very flashy. He said a lot of wise things but at the same time he was very controversial with his cult like following.

I said Osho and Sadhguru might not be fully enlightened because I'm skeptical if they have experienced Infinity during meditation. When a person succeeds in Raj yoga, they can experience Absolute Infinity/God/Spirit directly. That's what the traditional definition of liberation is. Have all the spiritual teachers experienced that? Highly unlikely. lol 

[Prabhaker]

1 hour ago, Deep said:

I'm skeptical if they have experienced Infinity during meditation.

Do you find Krishna fully enlightened ? In your opinion how a fully enlightened master should behave? what are do's and don'ts ?

[Deep]

1 hour ago, Prabhaker said:

Do you find Krishna fully enlightened ? In your opinion how a fully enlightened master should behave? what are do's and don'ts ?

Good question. Yes, it's a possibility Krishna was fully enlightened because he is worshiped as God. I think the story has a lot of exaggerations such as him lifting the mountain with his finger. We can't believe everything about it. Maybe Krishna was experiencing God-consciousness all the time, we don't know. Krishna was married and very wealthy. I don't think liberation has to mean one has to remain poor. I think nirvikalpa samadhi is the only requirement for enlightenment. Otherwise a person keep thinking they are the body/mind. 

I don't think an enlightened master should behave in any particular way. I'm just skeptical of people who claim enlightenment because I'm not them. Nowadays anyone on YouTube can say that. I don't know what they are experiencing. I don't care about how they live. I don't think there is any "right" way.

 The ancients discovered enlightenment because they wanted to figure themselves out. It was entirely random. 

Edited February 25, 2017 by Deep
added information

[Key Elements]

10 hours ago, Prabhaker said:

 Krishna 

I watched Mahabharat, the popular TV series, and thought that Bollywood's portrayal of Krishna is too grandiose. In real life, he was probably a humble man serving Arjun to change the course of history into the more positive. He may have forseen human history; that's why he was helping Arjun.

Btw, Happy Shivratri 

@Prabhaker

Hmmm...what do you think of Shiva? And, the other two?

Edited February 25, 2017 by Key Elements

[Prabhaker]

2 hours ago, Key Elements said:

portrayal of Krishna is too grandiose

Every religion, up to now, has divided life into two parts, and while they accept one part they deny the other, Krishna alone accepts the whole of life. Acceptance of life in its totality has attained full fruition in Krishna. That is why India held him to be a perfect incarnation of God, while all other incarnations were assessed as imperfect and incomplete. Even Rama is described as an incomplete incarnation of God. But Krishna is the whole of God. And there is a reason for saying so. The reason is that Krishna has accepted and absorbed everything that life is.

Krishna is not a hawk, not a supporter of war for war’s sake. He, however, treats war as part of life’s game. But he is not a warmonger. He has no desire whatsoever to destroy anyone; he does not want to hurt anyone. He has made every effort to avoid war, but he is certainly not prepared to escape war at any cost — at the cost of life and truth and religion itself. After all, there should be a limit to our efforts to avoid war, or anything else for that matter. We want to avoid war just for so it does not hurt and harm life. But what if life itself is hurt and harmed by preventing war? Then its prevention has no meaning. Even the pacifist wants to prevent war so that peace is preserved. But what sense is there in preventing a war if peace suffers because of it? In that case, we certainly need to have the strength and ability to wage a clear war, a decisive war.

Krishna is not a hawk, but he is not a frightened escapist either. He says it is good to avoid war, but if it becomes unavoidable it is better to accept it bravely and joyfully than to run away from it. Running away would be really cowardly and sinful. If a moment comes when, for the good of mankind, war becomes necessary — and such moments do come — then it should be accepted gracefully and happily. Then it is really bad to be dragged into it and to fight it with a reluctant and heavy heart. Those who go to war with dragging feet, just to defend themselves, court defeat and disaster. A defensive mind, a mind that is always on the defensive, cannot gather that strength and enthusiasm necessary to win a war. Such a mind will always be on the defensive, and will go on shrinking in every way. Therefore Krishna tells you to turn even fighting into a joyful, blissful affair.

Krishna is choiceless, he is total, he is integrated, and therefore he is whole and complete. We have not accepted any other incarnation except Krishna’s as whole and complete.

2 hours ago, Key Elements said:

what do you think of Shiva? And, the other two?

Hindus also have a trinity - Brahma, the creator god; Vishnu, the god who maintains the world; and Shiva, who will destroy the world. This is a cycle. Then Brahma creates the world again, and for millions of years Vishnu maintains it; then one day Shiva destroys it. So you will be surprised to know that in the whole of India there is only one temple devoted to Brahma. Who cares for him? His work is finished - he created the world.

All the temples are of Vishnu, or incarnations of Vishnu. All the incarnations of Hindu gods - Rama, Krishna, they are all incarnations of Vishnu. 

'Vigyan Bhairav Tantra'  a discourse between the god Shiva and his consort Devi or Shakti,  presents 112 meditation methods or centering techniques. It is said that 112 techniques of meditation of Vigyan Bhairav Tantra are all inclusive. It is said that there is no meditation techniques which has not been covered in Vigyan Bhairav Tantra. These Meditation techniques  are for people of all age and all times. These meditation techniques were for those who had lived in the pasts, for those who are living in the present and for all those who’ll born in future.

[Deep]

@Prabhaker Krishna had a sense of "right" and "wrong" but he didn't live by any dogmas. According to Patanjali, one has to be celibate to become enlightened. Isn't that a dogma? Some of my family members have dogmas against sex and alcohol. If one has seen Reality, why should they live by dogmas? 

 

[Prabhaker]

1 hour ago, Deep said:

According to Patanjali, one has to be celibate to become enlightened. Isn't that a dogma?

Yoga’s emphasis on celibacy is not because it is against sex: it is simply making a different use of it, a positive use of sex energy. So yoga works on energy directly, it does not worry about awareness. It says that as the energy increases, you will start becoming more aware. 

Yoga means that now there is no hope, now there is no future, now there are no desires. So many become interested, but very few enter because your interest may be just because of your mind. 

Total despair is needed.Become totally hopeless – no future, no hope. Difficult. Needs courage to face the real. But such a moment comes to everyone, some time or other. A moment comes to every human being when he feels total hopelessness. Absolute meaninglessness happens to him. When he becomes aware that whatsoever he is doing is useless, wheresoever he is going, he is going to nowhere, all life is meaningless – suddenly hopes drop, future drops, and for the first time you are in tune with the present, for the first time you are face to face with reality.

Unless this moment comes to you... You can go on doing asanas, postures; that is not yoga. Yoga is an inward turning. It is a total about-turn. When you are not moving into the future, not moving toward the past, then you start moving within yourself – because your being is here and now, it is not in the future. You are present here and now, you can enter this reality.

1 hour ago, Deep said:

Some of my family members have dogmas against sex and alcohol. If one has seen Reality, why should they live by dogmas? 

Most of the Indians are hypocrites. It is very difficult to repress sexual energy for a person who is living a life in which he is well adjusted in society. If you repress sex you will become angry; the whole energy that was becoming sex will become anger. And it is better to be sexual than to be angry. In sex at least there is something of love; in anger there is only pure violence and nothing else. If sex is repressed, the person becomes violent — either to others he will be violent, or to himself. These are the two possibilities: either he will become a sadist and will torture others, or he will become a masochist and will torture himself. But torture he will.

You repress sex, anger bubbles up; you repress anger.The moment you repress anger you become greedy. Mahavira taught non-violence, and the result has been that all the followers of Mahavira became the most greedy people in the world.

Repression is not the way: transformation is the way. Don’t repress anything. If sexuality is there, don’t repress it otherwise you will create a new complexity — which will be more difficult to tackle. And if you repress anger, greed is even more difficult then, and if you repress greed, arises ego, pride, which is the most difficult thing to drop.

Meditation is way of transforming sexual energy.

[Loreena]

10 hours ago, Prabhaker said:

 If you repress sex you will become angry; the whole energy that was becoming sex will become anger. And it is better to be sexual than to be angry. In sex at least there is something of love; in anger there is only pure violence and nothing else.

Repression is not the way: 

You explained it very well. Thank you.

10 hours ago, Prabhaker said:

 

The moment you repress anger you become greedy.

 

Could you elaborate some more on this? I didn't understand this part.

[Will Bigger]

On 2/22/2017 at 0:23 PM, BeginnerActualizer said:

I want to know what makes one of these magnetic, alluring mystics, different from somebody from the science and non-duality crowd. 

Is it to do with depth of enlightenment?

For example, folks like OSHO and Sadhguru are so alluring to many.

I am inclined now to say that it does have to do with depth of enlightenment. In person, the presence of someone as enlightened as Peter Russell (or Leo;) may be very pleasant. But the presence of OSHO, Sadguru, Ramana Maharshi, Mooji, or Ram Dass? Profoundly loving, pure radiation of bliss. People go to Ram Dass retreats, for example, and they sob because of his presence alone.

[Prabhaker]

48 minutes ago, Loreena said:

Could you elaborate some more on this? I didn't understand this part.

From time to time, unconscious emotions – anger, fear, hate, jealousy, greed, lust, cowardice, etc, run our life. Or it might be more appropriate to say they ruin our life. They are unconscious because they take possession of us often for no rational reason, or with a strength that is out of proportion to the situation that provoked them. 

For sex, for anger, for greed, unawareness is a basic requirement. If you repress sex you will become angry; the whole energy that was becoming sex will become anger. If you repress anger too you will become greedy; the whole energy that was becoming anger will become greedy. 

If you repress greed too, arises ego, pride. That’s why you will find the most crystallized egos in the monks and the nuns. You will not find such crystallized egos anywhere else. The more a person renounces, the more he represses, the more egoistic he becomes. They have done impossible things!” Now a great ‘I’ arises, the ego becomes strengthened.

The transformation can happen only if first you accept your natural being. Whatsoever is natural is good. Yes, more is possible, but the more will be possible only if you accept your nature with totality — if you welcome it, if you have no guilt about it. To be guilty, to feel guilty, is to be irreligious. In the past you have been told just the opposite: Feel guilty and you are religious. I say to you: Feel guilty and you will never be religious. Drop all guilt!

A non-repressed person becomes a non-egoist; he cannot carry the ego. There is no prop to support it. He becomes humble, he becomes simple, he becomes ordinary, he has no claim — he knows he is nothing.

[Prabhaker]

16 minutes ago, Will Bigger said:

People go to Ram Dass retreats, for example, and they sob because of his presence alone

The Master’s presence can be felt only by those people whose hearts are opened towards him, those who are connected through surrender. 

The Master is a presence; the Master is not a doer. The real Master never does a thing but his presence functions as a catalytic agent. Much happens through his non-doing. That is the paradox of the existence of a Master: without doing, much happens. So the whole thing depends really on the disciple: if he is receptive things start happening; if he is not receptive nothing happens. When nothing happens he throws the responsibility on the Master. The Master cannot do anything against you. In fact he cannot do anything because it is not a question of doing at all; it is simply a question of receiving, of taking it in.

In the East for thousands of years this special phenomenon has been in existence: the disciple sits by the side of the Master, just imbibing. Just being with him is enough.

[Key Elements]

On 24/02/2017 at 0:38 PM, Prabhaker said:

You'll. Spiritual energy is wasted when you use it for psychic powers. 

What you said here is interesting. I didn't forget it. Yesterday, I was on the bus coming home from work. My co-worker was sitting next to me. She was telling me about a guru that she met. The guru had the ability to travel outside his body anywhere in the world. The guru's wife also gained this ability through meditation. But, it was different for her. When she tried it after a few times, her soul didn't return to her body. So, she died.

Well, that's sad. What came to my mind when I heard this was, we can't go to the extremes of anything. Although, meditation has its benefits, overdoing it is also overworking yourself. Things have to be balanced.

Another thing that came to mind was, like I said and learned, we still have to live this life to the best of our abilities and to the fullest. We still need to learn all our lessons, grow, and move onto a better place. We still have Maslow and self-transendence being only at the tippy-top of the pyramid. We can't ignore all the foundation at the lower stages of the pyramid. That's where all our lessons are. And, we can't forget to factor in karma. It works in subtle ways. It seems like it gets better when we are able to gradually learn our lessons on Maslow. 

[Denis]

@BeginnerActualizer First of all thanks for making people aware of Gary Weber.  I think he is wonderful.  But to try and answer your question, I think it has to do with ego.  The ego loves to put enlightenment into some very mystical and distant goal attainable by only few special people.  When the reality is the awakening is actually very simple, so simple that the ego just dismisses it because its too simple right.  So sages that speak in a very mystical way are more appealing to the ego as opposed to "just a regular guy" like Gary Weber who is straight forward about it.  Basically the ego likes all the glamour that comes with the mystical type teachers.  I use to be like that in the beginning of my spiritual journey but now I like a lot of teachers and all their different teachings.  I think Gary Weber is great, he is straight to the point.  And the bottom line is if you truly want to wake up and give up all your attachments and do self inquiry and mediation you can become enlightened fairly quickly, its not gonna take 10 or 20 years or more.  Personally I recommend every teacher like Tolle, Adjashanti, Mooji, Weber etc.  I think Ramana Maharshis self-inquiry method is a wonderful tool.