Let’s Make Spiral Dynamics Bigger

[Julian gabriel]

How could we expand spiral dynamics to make both lower and higher stages?

Lower stages could include behaviors of various animals, such as monkeys.

Higher stages could include the greatest sages and mystics. Not Alan watts, Eckhart Tolle or Mooji. But rather what we may imagine Christ or Buddha were like. (Of course that would be difficult) 

I think one of the main things limiting spiral dynamics is that it’s only a map of human development.
How about we include lower purely survival based stages? Very animalistic stages with no higher functions whatsoever. 

If anyone knows about animal psychology, you could give your ideas on this. 

Also we could add alien intelligence and love at the higher end of the spiral if @Leo Gura ever goes into more depth about what he means by that. 

If anyone has any idea what Leo means by alien love and how we could fit it into spiral dynamics, then share that.

Edited November 6, 2022 by Julian gabriel

[Danioover9000]

@Julian gabriel

17 minutes ago, Julian gabriel said:

How could we expand spiral dynamics to make both lower and higher stages?

Lower stages could include behaviors of various animals, such as monkeys.

Higher stages could include the greatest sages and mystics. Not Alan watts, Eckhart Tolle or Mooji. But rather what we may imagine Christ or Buddha were like. (Of course that would be difficult) 

I think one of the main things limiting spiral dynamics is that it’s only a map of human development.
How about we include lower purely survival based stages? Very animalistic stages with no higher functions whatsoever. 

If anyone knows about animal psychology, you could give your ideas on this. 

 

   I definitely agree that we should expand Spiral Dynamics and add more complexity, more in a horizontal way like what would aliens and alien civilisations have as value systems, or if machine elves have their own versions of stages of development. Integral theory, by Ken Wilbur, is an example of doing just that, he read and added onto Spiral Dynamics to better determine at the individual level and other lines of development.

   For me, and some here, it's fun to entertain what versions of the spiral would look ljke from different sentient groups. It's basically philosophy at that point.

[integral]

There are infinite numbers between zero and one.

There are infinite colors between beige and purple.

[Girzo]

Stupid as hell.

SD is not well-grounded in hard facts by itself, it's a kind of theoretical tool/toy. You want to add to it ungrounded fantasies about historical figures, aliens and what-not.

That's either bananas or an acitivity for a children summer camp.

[Ulax]

I don't think you could.

@Girzo Chill out with the language

[Julian gabriel]

49 minutes ago, integral said:

There are infinite numbers between zero and one.

There are infinite colors between beige and purple.

@integral I really don’t think these kinds of simplistic answers are helpful. 

We already understand that there are infinite colors between beige and purple. I am asking how could we create a more nuanced model of these colors? Of course we will never create the perfect model of it, because it is infinite.

We already know that. 

If ur answer to how to improve a model is simply that we can’t make it perfect, then why are you here discussing models?

[Girzo]

7 hours ago, Julian gabriel said:

If ur answer to how to improve a model is simply that we can’t make it perfect, then why are you here discussing models?

What you are proposing is not an improvement, but a degradation. More =/= better.

I think it comes from a misunderstanding of what Spiral Dynamics is. It's not even a map of human development. It's a map of how HUMAN values HAVE evolved. Values, not general development. Also, it only describes what is, not what will be, it only has some vague idea of what could be. And we can already can fit Jesus and Buddha on it, because the values presummably esposused by those historical figures are avaialable to us from ancient written texts.

Adding animal stages make no sense in that context, because how the heck are you going to measure values that animals adhere to. Are you gonna interview a hamster? Or go under the sea to make a visit to a family of humpback whales and ask them a few questions?

Okay, I might have been harsh with my language and tone, but it's only because the idea is so outragous, that's the only way to underline it that seems fitting in my opinion.

You can propse your own model that describes general development. Spiral Dynamics is not it. SD is a tool for managers to solve conflicts in organizations.

Model of Hierarchical Complexity is a model that could fit anything from atoms to aliens, but it's also not a model of general development.

Ken Wilber tried to create something like general model, but didn't really achieve it and settled for something more managable. Also there's a reason why his books are 1000+ pages long. It's fucking hard. And we won't achieve it by typing random thoughts on some random internet forums, I can assure you of that.

[Danioover9000]

@Girzo

34 minutes ago, Girzo said:

What you are proposing is not an improvement, but a degradation. More =/= better.

I think it comes from a misunderstanding of what Spiral Dynamics is. It's not even a map of human development. It's a map of how HUMAN values HAVE evolved. Values, not general development. Also, it only describes what is, not what will be, it only has some vague idea of what could be. And we can already can fit Jesus and Buddha on it, because the values presummably esposused by those historical figures are avaialable to us from ancient written texts.

Adding animal stages make no sense in that context, because how the heck are you going to measure values that animals adhere to. Are you gonna interview a hamster? Or go under the sea to make a visit to a family of humpback whales and ask them a few questions?

Okay, I might have been harsh with my language and tone, but it's only because the idea is so outragous, that's the only way to underline it that seems fitting in my opinion.

You can propse your own model that describes general development. Spiral Dynamics is not it. SD is a tool for managers to solve conflicts in organizations.

Model of Hierarchical Complexity is a model that could fit anything from atoms to aliens, but it's also not a model of general development.

Ken Wilber tried to create something like general model, but didn't really achieve it and settled for something more managable. Also there's a reason why his books are 1000+ pages long. It's fucking hard. And we won't achieve it by typing random thoughts on some random internet forums, I can assure you of that.

   Chill out, it's just the OP entertaining the possibilities.

[Girzo]

@Danioover9000 And I am simply telling him why it's a wrong path to take, so he won't waste too much time here. It's out of compassion, not lack of chills 

OP is talking about behaviors in just a second sentence. It's clearly a mark of confusion, as SD doesn't deal with norms and behaviours at all. Different cultures at the same stage Blue with very similar values can have radically different norms and behaviors, for example Jews and Muslims.

[CultivateLove]

15 hours ago, Julian gabriel said:

Lower stages could include behaviors of various animals, such as monkeys.

That's just stage beige (pure instinct/survival).

15 hours ago, Julian gabriel said:

Higher stages could include the greatest sages and mystics. Not Alan watts, Eckhart Tolle or Mooji. But rather what we may imagine Christ or Buddha were like. (Of course that would be difficult) 

Stage Turqoise is the stage of sages and mystics. I don't know why you would want one specifically for religious figures that no one alive has never met.

I mean no offense but I recommend you go back to studying the basics of the model before you try changing it.

[Danioover9000]

@Girzo

4 hours ago, Girzo said:

@Danioover9000 And I am simply telling him why it's a wrong path to take, so he won't waste too much time here. It's out of compassion, not lack of chills 

OP is talking about behaviors in just a second sentence. It's clearly a mark of confusion, as SD doesn't deal with norms and behaviours at all. Different cultures at the same stage Blue with very similar values can have radically different norms and behaviors, for example Jews and Muslims.

   That's ultimately up to the OP. Why I side with OP, is that it is also entertaining for me to entertain possibilities. If it's not your cup of tea, fine, but don't negate OP and I teas, while imposing your own kind of iced tea.

[Carl-Richard]

16 hours ago, Julian gabriel said:

How could we expand spiral dynamics to make both lower and higher stages?

Lower stages could include behaviors of various animals, such as monkeys.

Spiral Dynamics is an ontogenetic theory, not an evolutionary theory. It works with the development of individuals and cultures across their lifespan, not across different species. Besides, the idea of an evolutionary stage theory is problematic, because evolution is highly contextual. Depending on the environment, a species will evolve in very different ways. This is by the way one of the weak spots of Spiral Dynamics, because it's not based in cross-cultural research, so we can't say for sure that all people across all cultures will follow the same trajectory of development.

 

16 hours ago, Julian gabriel said:

Higher stages could include the greatest sages and mystics. Not Alan watts, Eckhart Tolle or Mooji. But rather what we may imagine Christ or Buddha were like. (Of course that would be difficult) 

Spiral Dynamics is for all intents and purposes a cognitive theory. Mysticism goes beyond cognition. It doesn't make sense to put it along the same axis of development, unless you're making a more abstract theory (like Ken Wilber's Integral Theory). So you can make something "like" Spiral Dynamics with mysticism on top, but then it's not Spiral Dynamics.

Edited November 6, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, CultivateLove said:

Stage Turqoise is the stage of sages and mystics.

No.

 

1 hour ago, CultivateLove said:

I mean no offense but I recommend you go back to studying the basics of the model before you try changing it.

You can do that.

Edited November 6, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[Danioover9000]

@Julian gabriel

16 hours ago, Julian gabriel said:

How could we expand spiral dynamics to make both lower and higher stages?

Lower stages could include behaviors of various animals, such as monkeys.

Higher stages could include the greatest sages and mystics. Not Alan watts, Eckhart Tolle or Mooji. But rather what we may imagine Christ or Buddha were like. (Of course that would be difficult) 

I think one of the main things limiting spiral dynamics is that it’s only a map of human development.
How about we include lower purely survival based stages? Very animalistic stages with no higher functions whatsoever. 

If anyone knows about animal psychology, you could give your ideas on this. 

Also we could add alien intelligence and love at the higher end of the spiral if @Leo Gura ever goes into more depth about what he means by that. 

If anyone has any idea what Leo means by alien love and how we could fit it into spiral dynamics, then share that.

   The higher stages in question, past stage turquois, are stage coral and stage teal and the transparent stages. From stage coral to teal and above are considered tier 3 cognition, and it's arguable that hyper, ultra-levels of spirituality that hyper alien intelligences are also at that level.

   Like in Metroid series, and the Metroid Prime trilogy, and the Chozo of bird like aliens. Yes, example is fictional, but at this point there's very little real-world examples of even stage coral, let alone stage turquoise despite what Leo had to say about stage turquoise in one of his videos, which, BTW, got copyright strike by the founders of Spiral Dynamics for allegedly misrepresenting stage turquoise, so, at stage turquoise is where the ratio of less real-world examples to more fictional examples happens.

[Carl-Richard]

6 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

The higher stages in question, past stage turquois, are stage coral and stage teal and the transparent stages.

You're mixing up stages from Spiral Dynamics and Integral Theory and placing them in the wrong order 

 

Edited November 6, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[Danioover9000]

@Carl-Richard

21 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Spiral Dynamics is an ontogenetic theory, not an evolutionary theory. It works with the development of human individuals and cultures across their lifespan, not across different species. Besides, the idea of an evolutionary stage theory is problematic, because evolution is highly contextual. Depending on the environment, a species will develop in very different ways. This is by the way one of the weak spots of Spiral Dynamics, because it's not based in cross-cultural research, so we can't say for sure that all people across all cultures will follow the same trajectory of development.

 

Spiral Dynamics is for all intents and purposes a cognitive theory. Spirituality goes beyond cognition. It doesn't make sense to put it along the same axis of development, unless you're making a more abstract theory (like Ken Wilber's Integral Theory). So you can make something "like" Spiral Dynamics with spirituality on top, but then it's not Spiral Dynamics.

   True, and given how Clare Graves gathered and did his sampling/surveys, SD could be mostly an American centric, multicultural type of theory of human values development, technically speaking, although that didn't stop those founders and those close to them have stretched the model to cover other cultures outside the USA to explain how other cultural values emerged.

   Yes, SD and even Integral theory are cognitive theories, yet again, that doesn't stop people from really pushing those abstract boundaries to include spirituality, metaphysics and epistemology and other complex theories in there as well. Ken Wilbur, and to some extent and degree Daniel Schmachtenberger and the other two during the rebel wisdom video, not only are highly abstract thinkers, but can explain spirituality and enlightenment somewhat comprehensively. So, those cognitive theories, or at least engaging and thinking in those frameworks can help a little.

   Also, this entire thread is, basically, OP entertaining possible alternative forms of SD, so, we're basically seeing how many flavors of this ice cream we can give and entertain. Yes, technically it's still chocolate ice cream, and vanilla ice cream, but we still want to stretch it to include 50/50's, rainbows or even 99's, if some of you get the reference. 

Edited November 6, 2022 by Danioover9000

[Carl-Richard]

42 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

tier 3 cognition, and it's arguable that hyper, ultra-levels of spirituality that hyper alien intelligences are also at that level.

Tier 3 is a construct in Wilber's Integral Theory, and it transcends (and includes ) cognition. Its highest organizing concept is "developmental altitudes", i.e. simply which stages follow each other (in other words, very abstract). As for making the case for "Tier 3 cognition", you can say Tier 1-2 cognition deals with "personal cognition" (e.g. "normal" psychology), while Tier 3 cognition deals with "transpersonal cognition" (e.g. transpersonal psychology, parapsychology). Personal cognition is what Spiral Dynamics and mainstream science in general means with cognition. 4E cognitive science might deal with concepts like distributed and embodied cognition (which stretches the "personal"-ness of the concept), but it's nevertheless in the realm of personal cognition (it's not intrinsically tied to transcendental psychology or parapsychology).

...maybe I should just revert to a more intuitive approach to words ?

Edited November 6, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[Julian gabriel]

8 hours ago, Girzo said:

What you are proposing is not an improvement, but a degradation. More =/= better.

I think it comes from a misunderstanding of what Spiral Dynamics is. It's not even a map of human development. It's a map of how HUMAN values HAVE evolved. Values, not general development. Also, it only describes what is, not what will be, it only has some vague idea of what could be. And we can already can fit Jesus and Buddha on it, because the values presummably esposused by those historical figures are avaialable to us from ancient written texts.

Adding animal stages make no sense in that context, because how the heck are you going to measure values that animals adhere to. Are you gonna interview a hamster? Or go under the sea to make a visit to a family of humpback whales and ask them a few questions?

Okay, I might have been harsh with my language and tone, but it's only because the idea is so outragous, that's the only way to underline it that seems fitting in my opinion.

You can propse your own model that describes general development. Spiral Dynamics is not it. SD is a tool for managers to solve conflicts in organizations.

Model of Hierarchical Complexity is a model that could fit anything from atoms to aliens, but it's also not a model of general development.

Ken Wilber tried to create something like general model, but didn't really achieve it and settled for something more managable. Also there's a reason why his books are 1000+ pages long. It's fucking hard. And we won't achieve it by typing random thoughts on some random internet forums, I can assure you of that.

@Girzo Thank you for letting me know that spiral dynamics is a model of human VALUES, I understand that better now. 

But I still think that the idea of adding the values of animals makes sense. 
You can easily find out what an animals values are just by observing them.
For example It is clear that some animals value family more than others, and some animals value diversity of mates more than others, and so on. 

Also I don’t think that all sages, mystics and saints should be in the same stage.

Because If Christ and Buddha are anywhere near as conscious as they are remembered to be, then their values are not the same as Alan watts or eckhart tolle. 

Just found out that there are stages higher than turquoise, my mistake. 

Edited November 6, 2022 by Julian gabriel

[Carl-Richard]

4 minutes ago, Julian gabriel said:

But I still think that the idea of adding the values of animals makes sense. 
You can easily find out what an animals values are just by observing them.
For example It is clear that some animals value family more than others, and some animals value diversity of mates more than others, and so on. 

Which animals do you want to observe? Birds? Monkeys? Tardigrades?

[Danioover9000]

@Julian gabriel

1 hour ago, Julian gabriel said:

@Girzo Thank you for letting me know that spiral dynamics is a model of human VALUES, I understand that better now. 

But I still think that the idea of adding the values of animals makes sense. 
You can easily find out what an animals values are just by observing them.
For example It is clear that some animals value family more than others, and some animals value diversity of mates more than others, and so on. 

Also I don’t think that all sages, mystics and saints should be in the same stage.

Because If Christ and Buddha are anywhere near as conscious as they are remembered to be, then their values are not the same as Alan watts or eckhart tolle. 

Just found out that there are stages higher than turquoise, my mistake. 

   Animal worship, animal totems, western and native American astrology? Animal spirits? Yeah, those are similarly in level with SD turquoise spiritually speaking, but in most cases those practices tend to come from SD purple tribes.

   Most animals to me are capped at stage beige or below, the majority do not have the same level of human abstraction and cognition and morality that humans have, not to mention any concepts or personalities, state of being and consciousness is literally in present tense, in the NOW, without any notions of past or future, just present presence, but it's not like human presence.