Elon Musk Twitter Trainwreck Mega-Thread

[Leo Gura]

Every social media platform combats and takes down thousands of child porn every month. If not, they would be overrun with it.

Of course they don't catch all of it.

These debates about moderation are so silly because people find one example out of 10 million pieces of content and then use it to argue the whole system is broken. You can cherrypick data like that all day long when your platform deals with 100s of millions of pieces of new content each month.

It's the same problem as demonizing all of police for one bad arrest video out of 1000s.

These kinds of critiques are not done in good faith by people who genuinely care about understanding the challenges of policing and moderation. This stuff is extremely difficult and no one is acknowledging that. If you ran these platforms I guarantee that you would not have a better solution because mankind has not invented it yet.

There is not a single human alive on this planet who has a solution to the moderation problem. It's a problem as big as human cloning. So to sit there and criticize is extremely foolish and disingenuous. It's like criticizing astronauts on the moon from your couch.

Edited December 10, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Raze]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Every social media platform combats and takes down thousands of child porn every month. If not, they would be overrun with it.

Of course they don't catch all of it.

These debates about moderation are so silly because people find one example out of 10 million pieces of content and then use it to argue the whole system is broken. You can cherrypick data like that all day long when your platform deals with 100s of millions of pieces of new content each month.

It's the same problem as demonizing all of police for one bad arrest video out of 1000s.

These kinds of critiques are not done in good faith by people who genuinely care about understanding the challenges of policing and moderation. This stuff is extremely difficult and no one is acknowledging that. If you ran these platforms I guarantee that you would not have a better solution because mankind has not invented it yet.

There is not a single human alive on this planet who has a solution to the moderation problem. It's a problem as big as human cloning. So to sit there and criticize is extremely foolish and disingenuous. It's like criticizing astronauts on the moon from your couch.

No one is saying that they have to be perfect. However we are getting conformation they barely even tried or funded anti child exploitation measures and were more interested in shadow banning and banning conservatives. Now they are self righteously attacking Musk for removing the restrictions on conservatives when they themselves let a far more serious problem slip beneath them.

[integral]

Model: The Octalysis Framework for Gamification & Behavioral Design

 

Edited December 11, 2022 by integral

[Leo Gura]

 

[Leo Gura]

On 12/9/2022 at 6:05 PM, Raze said:

we are getting conformation they barely even tried or funded anti child exploitation measures and were more interested in shadow banning and banning conservatives.

I highly doubt this is true and I have not seen any such confirmation.

I cannot take Musk's accusations at face value.

You are telling me that a hyper Green, progressive moderation team was not worried about child exploitation? I don't buy this at all. Also, "child exploitation" is a very vague term. You can have all sorts of exploitation that is difficult to catch because it does not appear obviously wrong like child porn. Remember, most of this moderation is done with AI. How is AI gonna identify "child exploitation" unless there's some obvious nudity in it or the like?

This narrative that the mod team was only interested in shadowbanning conservatives has not been demonstrated AT ALL. To demonstrate that we'd need to see some emails of Twitter employees colluding against conservatives and also not against socialists, communists, etc. We have no idea what kind of communist or antifa channels they shadowbanned.

Edited December 12, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Scholar]

11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I highly doubt this is true and I have not seen any such confirmation.

I cannot take Musk's accusations at face value.

You are telling me that a hyper Green, progressive moderation team was not worried about child exploitation? I don't buy this at all. Also, "child exploitation" is a very vague term. You can have all sorts of exploitation that is difficult to catch because it does not appear obviously wrong like child porn. Remember, most of this moderation is done with AI. How is AI gonna identify "child exploitation" unless there's some obvious nudity in it or the like?

This narrative that the mod team was only interested in shadowbanning conservatives has not been demonstrated AT ALL. To demonstrate that we'd need to see some emails of Twitter employees colluding against conservatives and also not against socialists, communists, etc. We have no idea what kind of communist or antifa channels they shadowbanned.

The argument would be that the company made an active effort to pursuit certain kinds of speech because of fear of public backlash, where as the topic of child exploitation is not really part of the public consciousness and therefore not worth pursuiting as actively as contemporary cultural issues. AI's don't make independent decisions, they make decision based on training data and so forth. To make an AI better at detecting child exploitation takes ressources that you might not even think of investing in that area, because you are focused on investing them in areas you evaluate as more pressing to the interests of the company.

Edited December 12, 2022 by Scholar

[Oeaohoo]

15 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

You are telling me that a hyper Green, progressive moderation team was not worried about child exploitation? I don't buy this at all.

This isn’t overly surprising. The pioneering intellectuals of “Stage Green” all signed a petition to drastically lower the age of consent: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_petition_against_age_of_consent_laws. The normalisation of child sexuality is one of the logical conclusions of the “Stage Green” form of moral relativism - that is, of a “relativism” which ironically imposes itself absolutely. According to this immature form of relativism, every moral stricture of the past has to be violated in the name of “liberation from the super-structures of oppression”. As we move further into Stage Green, increasingly fundamental strictures have to be “challenged”, and protecting children from sexualisation is one of the most fundamental for most people. Not to mention that “Stage Green” culture is characterised by a low-level obsession with sexuality in general. “Free your mind and your ass will follow”…

Whilst I don’t believe in the Spiral of Progress, even those who do must admit that “Stage Yellow” must transcend this dogmatic relativism through a more profound form of inclusivity, one which is capable of meeting people where they are at rather than forcing a pet ideology onto them. Many people are converted to right-wing ideology today as a result of this and closely related issues. The demonisation of “Stage Green” today is often fuelled by the desire of ordinary parents to protect their children from miseducation, perversion and, in the worst case, exploitation. Of course, the “lower Stages” are hardly immune to this problem either. In most cases, though, they don’t go around actively and openly celebrating it like the more extreme advocates of “Stage Green” relativism do today.

[Leo Gura]

@Oeaohoo The people who most lower age of consent is right-wingers. They would marry children if allowed.

That you don't understand this is silly. Stage Blue is all about marrying children. Children's rights don't even exist at Stage Blue.

Edited December 12, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Oeaohoo]

48 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Oeaohoo The people who most lower age of consent is right-wingers. They would marry children if allowed.

That you don't understand this is silly. Stage Blue is all about marrying children. Children's rights don't even exist at Stage Blue.

Yeah, that is the strange thing about this issue. The people who complain about the sexualisation of children today are appealing to the moral tenet of “children’s rights”, when even the doctrine of formalised “human rights” in the modern sense was only developed within Classic Liberalism and fully cemented in Europe after the Second World War. This is one aspect of the contemporary “conservative” perspective which has never really resonated with me for precisely this reason.

It’s not that I hadn’t understood this objection, I was just framing the issue in more narrow present-day political terms. It is true that the Classical Liberal tradition - which is all that most contemporary Conservatives really seek to conserve, even if they sometimes dress it up in religious garb - granted children certain rights, and it is true that some of the more extreme factions of the progressive Left want to subvert these rights.

The issue of “Stage Blue” attitudes towards child marriage as a whole is much broader than this. In the present-day, in the “developed” world, most Conservatives are opposed to child marriage because they are heavily influenced by the Liberal tradition. The postmodern Left has “progressed” away from Liberalism towards deconstruction and absolutist moral relativism.

In Spiral Progress terms, this is a “Blue-Orange” reaction to “Green” and an issue that you wouldn’t hear so much about from people who were solidly “Blue”. The main thing I was drawing attention to is that many people today are being pulled back from “Green” relativistic pluralism towards “Orange” forms of Conservatism by people making these complaints, and that from the progressive point of view this is a problem.

Edited December 12, 2022 by Oeaohoo

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, Oeaohoo said:

protecting children from sexualisation is one of the most fundamental for most people.

If you look at this statement objectively, you will see that it is rather nonsense.

Children are not "sexualized". Teens are naturally horny creatures. They don't need "sexualizing". Humans naturally have sex at a young age. This has been the case through all of human history. If anything, teens need to be held back from sex, which most schools do by preventing skanky dress and the like. Protecting teens from sex is a modern day social invention. It is a good invention, but an invention nevertheless.

Edited December 13, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Tyler Robinson]

2 hours ago, Oeaohoo said:

This isn’t overly surprising. The pioneering intellectuals of “Stage Green” all signed a petition to drastically lower the age of consent: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_petition_against_age_of_consent_laws. The normalisation of child sexuality is one of the logical conclusions of the “Stage Green” form of moral relativism - that is, of a “relativism” which ironically imposes itself absolutely. According to this immature form of relativism, every moral stricture of the past has to be violated in the name of “liberation from the super-structures of oppression”. As we move further into Stage Green, increasingly fundamental strictures have to be “challenged”, and protecting children from sexualisation is one of the most fundamental for most people. Not to mention that “Stage Green” culture is characterised by a low-level obsession with sexuality in general. “Free your mind and your ass will follow”…

I think instead of calling it green, we should call it Toxic Green. Or let's say a toxic faction of Green. It's bad cherry picking to portray the entire hemisphere of Green using a few nutters out there. It's almost as bad as using the example of male hating vile feminist and then using her as some scapegoat to discredit the whole movement of feminism. 

Using bad apples to overthrow the good ones, a classic fallacy and a trap. I'm sure most Green supporters wouldn't be happy about the sexualization of children. 

So it's really a moot point or just too much generalizing. I'm not saying it shouldn't be criticized. 

 

[Leo Gura]

When it comes to those French intellectuals challenging consent laws, I would suspect they did that simply because they are radicals who wanted to break down all the repressive religious rules that are placed on sex at stage Blue. It's that hippie, stage Green "free love" mentality. Which of course has some problems. You can't be too free with sex.

Blue is a weird stage. It both controls and represses sex, but also tends to be okay with children getting married and the like.

Edited December 13, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Oeaohoo]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

If you look at this statement objectively, you will see that it is rather nonsense.

Children are not "sexualized". Teens are naturally horny creatures. They don't need "sexualizing". Humans naturally have sex at a young age. This has been the case through all of human history. If anything, teens need to be held back from sex, which most schools do by preventing skanky dress and the like. Protecting teens from sex is a modern day social invention. It is a good invention, but an invention nevertheless.

I haven’t personally looked into this, partly because I’m not interested and also because it is quite perverse, but - with respect to the accusation of things that haven’t been appropriately moderated on sites like Twitter and Facebook - this isn’t a matter of horny teens. It’s a matter of underage kids being sexualised before they have the capacity to understand what is being forced on them. It’s obvious that this is what is being referred to by child exploitation, and it seems a bit insincere to pretend that this is just people over-reacting to horny teens.

[Leo Gura]

Obviously sexual exploitation happens and should be policed. It's just hard to identify.

BTW, Musk disbanned Twitter's comittee of experts who advised on child exploitation and other forms of abuse. Now he's flying by the seat of his pants. The notion that Musk understands the nuances of child exploitation is laughable.

Edited December 13, 2022 by Leo Gura

[NK13]

This is what @Leo Gura means, when he talks about moderation. It's tough shit.

[Hardkill]

10 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Obviously sexual exploitation happens and should be policed. It's just hard to identify.

BTW, Musk disbanned Twitter's comittee of experts who advised on child exploitation and other forms of abuse. Now he's flying by the seat of his pants. The notion that Musk understands the nuances of child exploitation is laughable.

https://apnews.com/article/elon-musk-twitter-inc-technology-business-a9b795e8050de12319b82b5dd7118cd7

Yeah, it really looks like Twitter is really headed towards a major disaster.

[Razard86]

On 11/5/2022 at 4:24 AM, mr_engineer said:

About this whole 'hate-speech' thing - we like to believe that our side isn't engaging in hate-speech. That 'it's only the other side that does this, we never do it'. 

By this point, it's very obvious to me that the mainstream hates the straight, cis, white guy. Will Leftist Twitter ban the haters of this group? No! We like to be 'against hate-speech', but we will apply that selectively. 

The worst problem with the Left right now, is that they're making 'freedom' a bad word. And compliance and blind obedience and submission to authority, a good thing. That's 'socialism' in a nutshell, essentially. Use the government to do everything. And 'free speech' is a very bad thing! How will we get a word in if you get to speak?! So, what we have to do, is silence you. (Because we're full of shit. And when the truth has its day, our bullshit gets drowned out. Bad for us.) 

This prevents a civil, level-headed discourse relative to social-issues. And it furthers the separation between the Left and the Right. Favoring the elites, of course. Cuz their job hinges on you being divided. If the world becomes peaceful and free, government isn't needed anymore!! Authority isn't needed anymore. 

While I don't disagree that activist demonize white guys, as when I was in college in one of my classes the acronym WORM was used which means White Old Rich Men. So yeah the bias and demonization is inherent. But if you understand WHY they do it, it actually makes sense. Is it justified? From their perspective it is. Just like from your perspective it isn't justified. The truth is, we should push for a healthy calling out of both sides. Because both sides are hypocrites and until they realize this....they will fight forever. 

But yeah censorship doesn't work, it has never worked and it will never work. All of human history has literally told this story. I don't realize why people haven't figured this out. 

[Hatfort]

Elon Musk on Dave Chappelle’s show being strongly booed by the audience, who would have guessed it? He is used to having a troop of dickriders on Twitter, but out of that context, other common people spoke. Twitter is a big bubble, but still a bubble. Precisely we know for certain that Chappelle’s audience is not particularly woke, as the man had some controversies with his jokes about the trans community very recently, so those were already filtered in there.

The original video posted on Twitter was removed. What about that? The freedom of speech absolutist is really fast at removing a video that harms his image.

He says in another tweet that technically 90% of the people were clapping and %10 booing. I hightly doubt it, it seems like the majority in the video booed him.

 

[Thought Art]

@Hatfort Did you actually listen to chappelles trans jokes?

[Raze]

4 hours ago, Hatfort said:

Elon Musk on Dave Chappelle’s show being strongly booed by the audience, who would have guessed it? He is used to having a troop of dickriders on Twitter, but out of that context, other common people spoke. Twitter is a big bubble, but still a bubble. Precisely we know for certain that Chappelle’s audience is not particularly woke, as the man had some controversies with his jokes about the trans community very recently, so those were already filtered in there.The original video posted on Twitter was removed. What about that? The freedom of speech absolutist is really fast at removing a video that harms his image.

He says in another tweet that technically 90% of the people were clapping and %10 booing. I hightly doubt it, it seems like the majority in the video booed him.

You don’t know if it’s him removing the video. This isn’t “the people” it’s a comedy crowd in SF, places like those are full of liberals who uncritically accept any mainstream narrative, like Russiagate and anti-Rittenhouse they have uncritically accepted the current anti Elon Musk push by the mainstream media.