I'm still not convinced Jordan Peterson is anything other than a resentful bigot

[newbee]

10 hours ago, eggopm3 said:

you're not even trying to engage with the point i was making. 

That’s why I said this is going to be the last word I have with this ego-tripping know-it-all drugsbunny as it is useless talking to a self-absorbed bigot  who only wants to listen to his own biased drivel.

 

Quote

(besides, it would obviously be underreported since it's a socially embarrassing thing to admit)

That's a good observation.  Buck Angel actually had a video out, entitled 'stop bullying detransitioners' so that is something else they deal with on top of the fear to come out regretting their transition. 

[newbee]

I thought this video was both sad and funny as the hilariously ironical pronouns GOD/GODSELF for the self-appointed atheist in the beginning of the video are also fitting for this forum since people on here are striving for that God realization Leo claims to have achieved (some time?), so we could all use these pronouns instead of some narcissistic twat who thinks she (yes I said 'she' since I saw boobs that's why I'm calling it a she)  can have the world bend over backwards and thinks she's 'oh so important' to have some unique pronouns that don't even make sense (in her case, since she claims to NOT believe in GOD lolol)

The rest of the video shows more of the sad truth of the toxic trans agenda as Arielle points out that the number of people who think they are trans but actually aren't have skyrocketed, specificaly over the past 5 years along with detransitioners and most of those people are young teenage women.  Mostly because doctors are being afraid of being labeled transphobic.  Kids are thereby being fast-tracked onto the trans-train with all regrettable consequences as a result.   

 Quote from Mary, detrans woman :

Quote

"Being trans is like being in a cult. They tell you what to say in appointments to make sure you get HRT and surgeries.  They tell you they love you and they're your family now.  As soon as you question the ideology, they kick you out and talk bad about you.   I'm glad to be free. "

Hmm is that why they flock to conservative channels to tell their stories and be heard?  Or is their leftie pro trans community not as open-minded and inclusive as the think they are?  

 

[DrugsBunny]

@newbee This is a bit awkward. Having enraged you to anxiously gather your trusty allies of likeminded knuckle-dragging I'm honestly a bit hesitant to provoke you any further, as I've clearly struck a deep nerve by exposing your intolerance for trans people.

50 minutes ago, newbee said:

Phallioplasty (bottom surgery) for example has a 67 % complication rate .  Once again, NOT comparable to the complication rate of those other surgeries you mentioned.

Swing and a miss!

MINOR complications are common, but actual issues that impede the integrity of the surgery are exceptionally rare. If the complications were actually significant then the regret rate for trans people would be higher than what it is. (It's really low) https://www.issm.info/sexual-health-qa/is-it-common-for-transgender-people-to-regret-gender-affirmation-surgery

It's deeply concerning that you actually believed this was a valid refutation to trans acceptance. I pray the remedial education that victimized you has offered significant recompense for their failures.

1 hour ago, newbee said:

Suicidal ideation is the highest amongst transgenders 7-10 years AFTER medically transitioning. 

Wait, you mean to tell me that suicidal ideation for a group of people who on average transition at age 25 experience the most suicidal ideation at the age 32-35, completely in lockstep with normal suicidality rates? Holy shit. 

Okay, maybe I'm being a bit harsh; after all, I'm sure it must be painstakingly difficult for you to conjure a cogent worldview with the taste of Jordan Peterson's ejaculate ingrained into memory as thoroughly as it must be for someone who would proudly debase themselves by posting this asinine transphobic drivel. My apologies, going forward I'll be sure to use the kid-gloves with the likes of you.

[integral]

@DrugsBunny communicate your perspective with out personal attacks please, Thank you 

Edited November 6, 2022 by integral

[DrugsBunny]

@integral You must not have read the vitriolic tantrum I was responding to. Lmao.

[integral]

@newbee @DrugsBunny play nice you guys 

[Danioover9000]

@newbee

4 hours ago, newbee said:

I thought this video was both sad and funny as the hilariously ironical pronouns GOD/GODSELF for the self-appointed atheist in the beginning of the video are also fitting for this forum since people on here are striving for that God realization Leo claims to have achieved (some time?), so we could all use these pronouns instead of some narcissistic twat who thinks she (yes I said 'she' since I saw boobs that's why I'm calling it a she)  can have the world bend over backwards and thinks she's 'oh so important' to have some unique pronouns that don't even make sense (in her case, since she claims to NOT believe in GOD lolol)

The rest of the video shows more of the sad truth of the toxic trans agenda as Arielle points out that the number of people who think they are trans but actually aren't have skyrocketed, specificaly over the past 5 years along with detransitioners and most of those people are young teenage women.  Mostly because doctors are being afraid of being labeled transphobic.  Kids are thereby being fast-tracked onto the trans-train with all regrettable consequences as a result.   

 Quote from Mary, detrans woman :

Hmm is that why they flock to conservative channels to tell their stories and be heard?  Or is their leftie pro trans community not as open-minded and inclusive as the think they are?  

 

   While this is a bit cherry picked, I do agree there's some degree of close mindedness, on every side of the issue. This trans person has constructed an identity to live as an ego, in a group that collectively identifies as trans, is also collective ego. Of course, zoom out enough every position and every side developed a self-image and group-image to hold onto, so every side, including the left, are not immune to this deep issue of identity. 

[Danioover9000]

@newbee 

   On top of all that, is the internet, that acts like a force multiplier and magnifying glass that magnifies preexisting ideologies and indoctrinated beliefs via online forums, chat groups, comment sections, viewers and so on. While there's stage of development, cognitive and moral development, personality typing and ego development, life experiences and other lines of development to consider, the internet can factor in as the magnifying factor that both increases dogmatic, close minded and cult like tendencies and cult like identities, the internet also enables faster spread of ideologies, alongside algorithms per social media website and news feeds that curate and tailors' contents and what is/isn't shown to viewers and users.

[eggopm3]

10 hours ago, DrugsBunny said:

You said "so it's okay if 1 in 5 tans people regret their surgery?" and I showed that the number is less than 3%. That's embarrassing.

i never claimed that, i responded in jest to your comparison with a sarcastic hypothetical (if surgery regret for trans people was as high as it is for spinal surgery would you consider that rate acceptable?). a hypothetical question which I rephrased and posed again in a more thoughtful manner in my next post, which you continued to ignore.

the ISSM study you responded to me with literally includes a paragraph about people who regretted their decision. The size of this population will only increase over time regardless of what percentage of the overall population they are. is this a good thing? is this worth it? how will this group of people affect culture and the transgender dialogue once it gets too large to continue ignoring? are these people not worthy of empathy? Imagine struggling and being confused your whole life with something only to finally get the treatment you've convinced yourself will be the solution but even that doesn't fix you? Imagine feeling as if you failed at being a man AND a woman, like you cant even fulfill a basic qualification of being a human? And now you're stuck with severe physical consequences (which may turn off potential intimate partners adding insult to injury) and have to life the rest of your life with that.

Besides, throwing around a bunch of stats is almost completely meaningless when:

a) not only is there is tremendous social pressure to respond in a certain way ("will i be shunned for admitting this view?" "will all my lgbt friends hate me?"). but there is an enormous risk of self-deception. people rationalize their extreme decisions to justify them all the time. and plenty more will just never admit they were wrong about something because its too embarrassing, or they're already in too deep. There is no way to know how many "false positives" there are from a study like this.

b) Speaking of false positives, there are many different reasons a person might seek out these treatments and claim to not be regretful which are *not* equivalent. For example, a male-born person who grows up acting naturally feminine and claiming to be a girl all their life without outside influence and decides to transition is a completely different situation from somebody who desires to transition because they've developed strange sexual fixations due to a traumatic personal history. or what about people who have no real gender issues but are just really into body mods and self-experimentation? all of these people would have equal access to the same treatments and would respond as "not regretting".

c) hormone and surgery treatments have existed for a while but never on the scale like we've seen over the last decade (or two at best). So it is not possible to have accurate data on how these treatments affect large populations of people in the long term because the majority of people receiving these treatments have only done so relatively recently. This is the kind of thing that needs to be researched over much broader time scales with much larger and less biased samples (the cultural landmine that the issue had ended up becoming makes it extremely hard to eliminate bias so even that is pretty tricky). 

d) these treatments are not static procedures, like the entire field of medicine they are constantly developing and changing. EVERY culture in history has had gender-non-conforming people, and different cultures dealt with it in radically different ways, this implies the obvious eventuality that the way we think about and treat non-cis people will NOT remain as it is now. What if by 2040 there's some kind of AR tech or psychedelic or something that allows the user to alter their perception of their own body to feel like the opposite sex for as long as they want, eliminating the need for medical intervention? That would make the way we deal with the issue now seem almost barbaric in contrast wouldn't it? 

and e) Science doesn't fully understand how the brain works, science doesn't fully understand how the endocrine system works, science doesn't fully understand how gender and sex work. yet when it comes to this particular issue people start shouting "trust the science!" as if we know with absolute certainty that the current theories regarding some of the most complex systems in our body are completely 100% accurate and that we can manipulate them as much as we want with no ramifications. even cis-men and cis-women who receive hormone therapy with their own gender's hormones can and do have long term negative health impacts of a wide variety depending on a multitude of factors and must decide if the trade-offs are worth it. but if trans people decide to radically alter their endocrine system for the rest of their lives we shouldn't be concerned about the increased risk of dementia, blood clots, heart disease, stroke, bone fractures and whatever else that these people will experience as they age from decades of hormone supplementation?

[Danioover9000]

@eggopm3

1 hour ago, eggopm3 said:

i never claimed that, i responded in jest to your comparison with a sarcastic hypothetical (if surgery regret for trans people was as high as it is for spinal surgery would you consider that rate acceptable?). a hypothetical question which I rephrased and posed again in a more thoughtful manner in my next post, which you continued to ignore.

the ISSM study you responded to me with literally includes a paragraph about people who regretted their decision. The size of this population will only increase over time regardless of what percentage of the overall population they are. is this a good thing? is this worth it? how will this group of people affect culture and the transgender dialogue once it gets too large to continue ignoring? are these people not worthy of empathy? Imagine struggling and being confused your whole life with something only to finally get the treatment you've convinced yourself will be the solution but even that doesn't fix you? Imagine feeling as if you failed at being a man AND a woman, like you cant even fulfill a basic qualification of being a human? And now you're stuck with severe physical consequences (which may turn off potential intimate partners adding insult to injury) and have to life the rest of your life with that.

Besides, throwing around a bunch of stats is almost completely meaningless when:

a) not only is there is tremendous social pressure to respond in a certain way ("will i be shunned for admitting this view?" "will all my lgbt friends hate me?"). but there is an enormous risk of self-deception. people rationalize their extreme decisions to justify them all the time. and plenty more will just never admit they were wrong about something because its too embarrassing, or they're already in too deep. There is no way to know how many "false positives" there are from a study like this.

b) Speaking of false positives, there are many different reasons a person might seek out these treatments and claim to not be regretful which are *not* equivalent. For example, a male-born person who grows up acting naturally feminine and claiming to be a girl all their life without outside influence and decides to transition is a completely different situation from somebody who desires to transition because they've developed strange sexual fixations due to a traumatic personal history. or what about people who have no real gender issues but are just really into body mods and self-experimentation? all of these people would have equal access to the same treatments and would respond as "not regretting".

c) hormone and surgery treatments have existed for a while but never on the scale like we've seen over the last decade (or two at best). So it is not possible to have accurate data on how these treatments affect large populations of people in the long term because the majority of people receiving these treatments have only done so relatively recently. This is the kind of thing that needs to be researched over much broader time scales with much larger and less biased samples (the cultural landmine that the issue had ended up becoming makes it extremely hard to eliminate bias so even that is pretty tricky). 

d) these treatments are not static procedures, like the entire field of medicine they are constantly developing and changing. EVERY culture in history has had gender-non-conforming people, and different cultures dealt with it in radically different ways, this implies the obvious eventuality that the way we think about and treat non-cis people will NOT remain as it is now. What if by 2040 there's some kind of AR tech or psychedelic or something that allows the user to alter their perception of their own body to feel like the opposite sex for as long as they want, eliminating the need for medical intervention? That would make the way we deal with the issue now seem almost barbaric in contrast wouldn't it? 

and e) Science doesn't fully understand how the brain works, science doesn't fully understand how the endocrine system works, science doesn't fully understand how gender and sex work. yet when it comes to this particular issue people start shouting "trust the science!" as if we know with absolute certainty that the current theories regarding some of the most complex systems in our body are completely 100% accurate and that we can manipulate them as much as we want with no ramifications. even cis-men and cis-women who receive hormone therapy with their own gender's hormones can and do have long term negative health impacts of a wide variety depending on a multitude of factors and must decide if the trade-offs are worth it. but if trans people decide to radically alter their endocrine system for the rest of their lives we shouldn't be concerned about the increased risk of dementia, blood clots, heart disease, stroke, bone fractures and whatever else that these people will experience as they age from decades of hormone supplementation?

   I agree there's an increasing issue of trans people regretting getting sex surgery, that gender dysphoria is an increasing issue in correlation to the internet and social media over consumption, that more left leaning education systems are indoctrinating blindly and confusing our youths further and concede my hyper intellectual opposition towards you. So, where do we go from here? How can we approach this problem, such that our solution does not create more problems?

[Danioover9000]

   Very interesting insights from these people:

 

[Heart of Space]

I disagree with Jordan Peterson on a lot of stuff.  But when I see him cry I cry a little too.  

Passion inspires me and teaches me.  Not being correct all the time.  

[eggopm3]

51 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@eggopm3

   I agree there's an increasing issue of trans people regretting getting sex surgery, that gender dysphoria is an increasing issue in correlation to the internet and social media over consumption, that more left leaning education systems are indoctrinating blindly and confusing our youths further and concede my hyper intellectual opposition towards you. So, where do we go from here? How can we approach this problem, such that our solution does not create more problems?

In a sense I don't think there is much of a direct solution really. The movement has enormous momentum and I think it will continue to play out for as long as it has the steam to continue playing out. it won't go away until either a different model of gender-non-conformity supplants it, or the treatments evolve to something entirely different (both are inevitable, just a matter of the time frame). In many respects actively resisting it or trying to brute force a solution is the most surefire way to create more problems. Pointing out and raising awareness of these issues in a respectful manner while showing compassion for the individuals involved is probably the best we can do on an individual level.

Of course there is also the Actualized™ solution. improve epistemology, promote awakening, legalize psychedelics ect.

I'm actually quite optimistic that more widespread use of psychedelics will be of enormous benefit to people with gender dysphoria. Helping to reduce self-deception and undoing cultural programming will sort out many confused minds. That could significantly reduce the number of people making the wrong choice, increase the confidence of those for whom it is actually the right choice, and promote more empathy in general for those struggling with these issues. Further still, with the right intention you can have an opposite-sex experience on psychedelics (for some this could "scratch the itch" that their mind is preoccupied with). With a different intention you can see your own body as beautiful exactly as it is regardless of birth-sex or any perceived physical flaws (this kind of experience would benefit anybody with low self esteem). With yet another intention you can experience the interaction of masculine and feminine energy, how to incorporate them into your life in a productive non pathological way. Knowledge that things like these are possible to experience (these examples come from my own trips) is not widespread. Most people have no idea that gender can be explored to such an extent in such a non-invasive way, but they should!