I'm still not convinced Jordan Peterson is anything other than a resentful bigot

[DrugsBunny]

1 hour ago, Razard86 said:

Here is the definition of a grifter. https://www.google.com/search?q=Grifter+definition&rlz=1C1VDKB_enUS991US992&oq=Grifter+definition&aqs=chrome..69i57.5236j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Here is another source. https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/grifter

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/grift

My dude's breaking out the literal dictionary. *rolls eyes* This does not take into account the way the word grifter has been used over the past 3 to 4 years. Definitions change due to the way people use the words, for instance, the word "literally" for years was used as a means of emphasis without meaning something is "literally" true before the dictionary updated it. My definition is derived from the far more valid source of being tuned in to modern discourse, whereas your definition is a haphazard conformity to an outdated dictionary. Congrats.

1 hour ago, Razard86 said:

So now you are telling me HOW I need to respond? Look at all this self-righteousness? Listen DrugsBunny, the world does not revolve around your opinion. You do not have the authority of the right to tell someone HOW they should respond to someone. Do you have any clue how much arrogance is within you to TELL SOMEONE how they SHOULD or SHOULD NOT respond. Now you can make a suggestion....sure that is warrantable. But you are sitting here telling me HOW to respond? 

The lack of self awareness here deserves some kind of trophy, and I may have defiled my own integrity by affording you my attention any further, but I'll take the hit. Do you really not see the hypocrisy in saying I can't deem your temperament unnecessary after you said the following:

3 hours ago, Razard86 said:

you can't go around just calling people con artists because what they say offends you.

Your response is actually the more egregious offender in terms of who is demanding someone refine their free-speech, whereas mine simply said your tone was unnecessary and never states outright that you can't say what you've said. Yikes. 

[Leo Gura]

Be ware of thought-terminating cliches such as "grifter", "bigot", "transphobe", "fascist", etc.

[DrugsBunny]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

The fact that you cannot articulate his position properly says more about you than it does about him.

@Leo Gura Can't articulate his position? For the sake of brevity the was really no necessity to recap his position. I notice you like to throw around the term "gas-lighting" but would you acknowledge that I've been gaslit with your response here?

His position is that trans youth being allowed to transition means that cis children will harm themselves due to newfound feasibility in changing ones gender. Not really that complicated.

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

That is the conservative position. It is not absurd to suggest that confusion about gender roles can harm kids. Given that trans people are such a tiny percentage of the population (<1%), making even 2% of the non-trans kids confused could lead to a net negative effect.

If I wanted to gaslight you, I would respond to this by saying "the fact that you can't actually give examples where the harm would occur" says more about you than about this matter, but I can see you simply opted not to for the sake of brevity. 

If you want this position to be respected you should provide an example where this would actually hurt cis kids, but I imagine you'd be pretty hard-pressed to do so.

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

The meta problem here is that you guys do not understand the conservative position. So you demonize it as transphobia. Playing around with deep cultural norms, like gender, can cause great harm if done mindlessly. That is the conservative worldview.

I'm saying JP is a transphobe because he engages in transphobic rhetoric, as you have acknowledged by saying his Elliot Page drama took things too far. It's very strange that you aren't willing to acknowledge how this unambiguously puts him in the transphobic category.

 

[Topspin715]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

JP is not open to trans stuff because he believes it harms more cis kids than it helps trans kids because it undermines gender norms.

Public policy is not about helping one narrow group of people, it is about what's best for the whole.

I'm not so sure that he's making a calculated trade off.  I think he might simply not believe in transgenderism and that it is a misdiagnosis for some other mental illness or trauma.  He does not seem to even recognize that people with gender dysphoria suffer and that sex-reassignment surgery is a valid treatment for gender dysphoria.  I don't think he has clearly articulated his own view on what he thinks transgenderism and gender dysphoria actually is.

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, DrugsBunny said:

@Leo Gura Can't articulate his position? For the sake of brevity the was really no necessity to recap his position. I notice you like to throw around the term "gas-lighting" but would you acknowledge that I've been gaslit with your response here?

No. You tried to smear his position as transphobic and I simply called you out on that. You are welcome to disagree with me but don't say I'm gaslighting you.

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If you want this position to be respected you should provide an example where this would actually hurt cis kids, but I imagine you'd be pretty hard-pressed to do so.

We have an epidemic of Incels because boys are not being properly taught how to be strong men. The number of Incels way outnumber trans people. And these Incels cause a lot of social chaos. It's also not good for women.

Quote

I'm saying JP is a transphobe because he engages in transphobic rhetoric, as you have acknowledged by saying his Elliot Page drama took things too far. It's very strange that you aren't willing to acknowledge how this unambiguously puts him in the transphobic category.

It's not transphobic to be concerned about culture changing in harmful ways.

Edited November 3, 2022 by Leo Gura

[DrugsBunny]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

It's not transphobic to be concerned about culture changing in harmful ways.

Misgendering and harassing Elliot Page is transphobic.

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

We have an epidemic of Incels because boys are not being properly taught how to be strong men. The number of Incels way outnumber trans people. And these Incels cause a lot of social chaos. It's also not good for women.

This is a totally separate issue that has nothing to do with teens being afforded the means to transition to their true gender identity. Demonstrate the connection between the two, otherwise this is just blatant dishonesty.

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, DrugsBunny said:

Misgendering and harassing Elliot Page is transphobic.

Well, these notions are highly relative and subjective.

I do not defend JP's style of communication there. He clearly lost his temper.

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This is a totally separate issue that has nothing to do with teens being afforded the means to transition to their true gender identity. Demonstrate the connection between the two, otherwise this is just blatant dishonesty.

They are totally separate if your approach is unholistic.

You are treating culture as though it doesn't influence people.

This is a culture war. You are warring over how to define culture norms. The reason you do so is because you know that culture is hugely influential. Yet you then want to deny that it influences cis children.

What you have to remember is that children and teens are morons. You can program them with literally any ideology and they will follow along.

Edited November 3, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Tyler Robinson]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Well, these notions are highly relative and subjective.

How is Elliot Page harming the culture? There's something called personal liberty? 

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, Tyler Robinson said:

How is Elliot Page harming the culture? There's something called personal liberty? 

I am not claiming Elliot is, JP is claiming that.

In the same way that you believe Andrew Tate is harming culture with his personal liberty.

Basically, you have to understand that from the conservative POV, gayness harms culture because it undermines masculinity. If you cannot understand that, then you won't understand the trans debate.

Edited November 3, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Tyler Robinson]

 

Just now, Leo Gura said:

I am not claiming Elliot is, JP is claiming that.

In the same way that you believe Andrew Tate is harming culture with his personal liberty.

Huge difference. Elliot Page is not going around telling everyone to be trans. Simply exercising their personal individual gender liberty. It doesn't even need to influence society because people have autonomy over their lives as long as it doesn't harm or bother others. 

But Andrew Tate is not keeping his choices to himself. He is actively participating in preaching his choices and his mentality to impressionable teenage boys and wants his followers to actually go by his way of conducting things. Then it's not only harming a culture, it's even introducing a new culture itself. 

 

[Leo Gura]

Role-modeling works even without words.

And there is a lot of LGBTQ+ ideology being taught these days. It's not about any one persona like Elliot. It's the overall change in the culture.

You guys should actually make an attempt to understand this stuff. I'm not going to force explanations down your throat. If you don't want to understand, then remain ignorant.

Edited November 3, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Tyler Robinson]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

And there is a lot of LGBTQ+ ideology being taught these days.

Whats the point of restricting it anyway? Where will you place the boundary? What will you say is acceptable and what will you say is not acceptable? 

Cultural change is inevitable and is generally decided by trends and majority. This is seen throughout history. Nobody has been able to bypass cultural change or bend it to their will. 

You cannot even control the will of your own daughter, forget masses of people, countries and communities. 

Trying to want culture to get better for humanity is a useless endeavor since culture changes are controlled by what everyone wants and that is dictated by the demographic and peer trends. 

If all the students in your class decided to get drunk on prom night, you can't do much about it. People end up getting what they want anyway. 

[DrugsBunny]

@Leo Gura You still haven't given a single example where the expanded feasibility of trans youth transitioning has posed any real threat towards cis children. Instead of pussyfooting around the issue, actually show your math and provide an example where a cis kid is harmed because we have lessened the stigma against becoming trans.

All you have said is that they are being influenced by culture, and I'm sitting here like "uh... yeah, that's the point". Where does the actual HARM take place? You got nothing. 

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, DrugsBunny said:

actually show your math

https://www.joe.ie/life-style/amount-men-30-not-sex-nearly-tripled-past-decade-663846

The math is very clear. You just aren't interested in holistic thinking.

Edited November 3, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Tyler Robinson]

 

4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

https://www.joe.ie/life-style/amount-men-30-not-sex-nearly-tripled-past-decade-663846

The math is very clear. You just aren't interested in holistic thinking.

Dysfunction is love. 

[DrugsBunny]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

https://www.joe.ie/life-style/amount-men-30-not-sex-nearly-tripled-past-decade-663846

The math is very clear. You just aren't interested in holistic thinking.

You would have to demonstrate the clear unambiguous connection between the two, which you have not done. You're just expecting me to believe that this phenomenon has to do with trans people and then ascribing a lack of holistic thinking to anyone who can't see the connection.

As I see it, this phenomenon is obviously the result of social isolation becoming a more feasible survival strategy. The internet, remote jobs, the increase of online streamers who can entertain and thus facilitate parasocial relationships with otherwise lonely people, these are all things that have diminished the necessity for people to leave the house to socialize. It's obviously far more plausible that stuff like this is to blame for men being lonely rather than trans people becoming less stigmatized. 

I mean this is just common sense, it's seriously bizarre that you would blame trans acceptance for this phenomenon rather than the obvious culprit I've just described.

[Tyler Robinson]

@Leo Gura I'm imagining this in the future where people will create mini Amish style communities to escape the impact of cultural changes. 

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, DrugsBunny said:

You would have to demonstrate the clear unambiguous connection between the two, which you have not done. You're just expecting me to believe that this phenomenon has to do with trans people and then ascribing a lack of holistic thinking to anyone who can't see the connection.

I don't have to demonstrate anything.

The point is simply that when you toy with culture you can create all sorts of unforeseen negative consequences. To not take this possibility seriously is the error of liberalism.

Quote

As I see it, this phenomenon is obviously the result of social isolation becoming a more feasible survival strategy. The internet, remote jobs, the increase of online streamers who can entertain and thus facilitate parasocial relationships with otherwise lonely people, these are all things that have diminished the necessity for people to leave the house to socialize. It's obviously far more plausible that stuff like this is to blame for men being lonely rather than trans people becoming less stigmatized. 

There are certainly many factors at play, not just trans people. But LGBTQ+ is far more than just stopping trans people from being bullied. It's a much wider ideology.

Quote

I mean this is just common sense, it's seriously bizarre that you would blame trans acceptance for this phenomenon rather than the obvious culprit I've just described.

There's much more at play within LGBTQ+ ideology than merely "trans acceptance".

Edited November 3, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Tyler Robinson]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

There's much more at play within LGBTQ+ ideology than merely "trans acceptance".

You need to make a private blog video on this. 

 

[Topspin715]

Its probably fair to label Jordan Peterson as transphobic as he quite literally fears the rise of the transgender moment and the effect they will have on society more broadly.  But it really doesn't solve the problem very well to punish or shame people for being quite literally afraid.  Fear can devolve into hatred which is even more socially dangerous but it is still more effective to understand people's harmful behaviors as a maladaptive response to fear and pain.

 

He is so afraid and threatened that he is unable to understand why people identify as trans in a compassionate way.  It is pitiful but still harmful and polarizing. 

Edited November 3, 2022 by Topspin715