I'm still not convinced Jordan Peterson is anything other than a resentful bigot

[BeHereNow]

Leo says JP has a lot of honesty and integrity for a rightwinger. That's probably true, he's definitely smarter than the average person I would suspect. I've seen a few videos where he's charitable to differing ideologies like Islam but when it comes to transgender people and transgenderism, suddenly it's an evil ideology and we're all evil people. Just took a look to see if he's ever had a conversation with a trans person and to my knowledge he hasn't, he's spoken to plenty of people who have an interest on pushing anti-trans agendas to wide audience though, funnily enough.

I'm not buying this crap that the left misunderstands Mr. Peterson, I think they understand him perfectly fine for what he is. Now if people wanna listen to whatever he has to say on anything, I think people should and he should have the right to say anything he on his mind, no matter how hateful. I think he's a shameless grifter using peusdo-intellectualism as a cloak for his bigotry.

I don't want to listen to people who think I'm apart of some ideology to destroy the west just because I'm transgender. Perhaps you should compromise with people who don't quite understand and maybe feel a little resistant, sure, but when you have JP saying Elliot Page's surgeon is a butcher and keeps constantly fighting this anti trans culture war for years now on big platforms, are you really that surprised when many trans activists and people on the left want nothing to do with him?

[Carl-Richard]

He certainly could make his points in a less inflammatory and culture war-like way, but you also have to be a bit understanding that he has been involved in nothing but controversy since 2016, and it was a big change from his usual life, so it's not a surprise that his approach has become a little less virtuous. Imagine if you yourself became famous over night and half of the political world starts being on your ass for 6 years straight. You might say "ah, but many people are involved in controversy", but I would say not in that way. Does there even exist an analogous example in the age of social media of a non-public person suddenly becoming world famous over night because of some controversial political opinion and then gradually becoming more hot for half a decade?

Edited November 2, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[Danioover9000]

@BeHereNow

1 hour ago, BeHereNow said:

Leo says JP has a lot of honesty and integrity for a rightwinger. That's probably true, he's definitely smarter than the average person I would suspect. I've seen a few videos where he's charitable to differing ideologies like Islam but when it comes to transgender people and transgenderism, suddenly it's an evil ideology and we're all evil people. Just took a look to see if he's ever had a conversation with a trans person and to my knowledge he hasn't, he's spoken to plenty of people who have an interest on pushing anti-trans agendas to wide audience though, funnily enough.

I'm not buying this crap that the left misunderstands Mr. Peterson, I think they understand him perfectly fine for what he is. Now if people wanna listen to whatever he has to say on anything, I think people should and he should have the right to say anything he on his mind, no matter how hateful. I think he's a shameless grifter using peusdo-intellectualism as a cloak for his bigotry.

I don't want to listen to people who think I'm apart of some ideology to destroy the west just because I'm transgender. Perhaps you should compromise with people who don't quite understand and maybe feel a little resistant, sure, but when you have JP saying Elliot Page's surgeon is a butcher and keeps constantly fighting this anti trans culture war for years now on big platforms, are you really that surprised when many trans activists and people on the left want nothing to do with him?

   It'll depend on many factors, such as stage of development, cognitive and moral development, psychology and personality type, ego development, states of being, life experiences and other lines of development, and worldviews and bias. Right now, you a transgender person, likely a socialist/progressive, that's your bias, judging and labelling JP, who's more a traditionalist and conservative, which is his bias. The man problem is that both you and his biases are different and conflict in several points, at tier 1 cognition. If you want to go higher development, you have to be more open minded and willing to learn from his POV, and be willing to seriously take on his worldview, and bias correct rather than bias conflict. Otherwise, if you're not that willing, then you'll forever get triggered by these culture wars between the right and left and triggered by him while your mind makes all kinds of distortions and generalizations to maintain its selfish bias.

   Try to imagine how you look, in the eyes of most normies, and some right leaning people, when someone comes up like they don't like their own sex biology and in denial of being born with male/female sex parts. How do you think a normal person is gonna think and feel when hearing a person say they don't like their penis or vagina? now imagine J.K Rowling's experience of getting attacked in a bathroom with one of these males that call themselves transgender, and how that's a legit fear in the minds of these normal people? Not just getting sneak attacks, but the idea of seeing their children and early adolescent boys/girls being encouraged/entertaining the idea of early sex surgery, imagine the horror and fear of those parents?

   The degree to which you can't or won't imagine the scenarios above, is the degree to which you need more inner work and growth to understand and empathize with those biases different from you. 

@Carl-Richard

40 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

He certainly could make his points in a less inflammatory and culture war-like way, but you also have to be a bit understanding that he has been involved in nothing but controversy since 2016, and it was a big change from his usual life, so it's not a surprise that his approach has become a little less virtuous. Imagine if you yourself became famous over night and half of the political world starts being on your ass for 6 years straight. You might say "ah, but many people are involved in controversy", but I would say not in that way. Does there even exist an analogous example in the age of social media of a non-public person suddenly becoming world famous over night because of some controversial position and then gradually becoming more hot for half a decade?

   Easy, the Nickle Back rock group, still is the most hated and negatively mimed group in the internet.

[BeHereNow]

I don't see how his sudden jump into the spotlight excuses him of being a hateful grifter. Also it's not like his points can be presented in a more civil way, his points are why people find him repugnant.

Maybe it's a little hard for a non-trans person to understand because there's a few of us to relate too, but when you have someone call Elliott's Paige's surgeon a butcher for simply performing top surgery on a consenting adult, it sets off so many red flags and alarm bells that what ever else that person says that can be considered a "good point", it's irrelevant. It just comes off as Nazi-esque to me.

[Carl-Richard]

12 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

Easy, the Nickle Back rock group, still is the most hated and negatively mimed group in the internet.

They were always a public group or at least intended to be, they became famous decades before 2016, and it was not due to a controversial political opinion (that is what I really meant by "controversial position"; sorry, I should've clarified that, you being overly literal and stuff ).

 

13 minutes ago, BeHereNow said:

I don't see how his sudden jump into the spotlight excuses him of being a hateful grifter.

It's an explanation, not an excuse.

 

14 minutes ago, BeHereNow said:

Also it's not like his points can be presented in a more civil way, his points are why people find him repugnant.

Calling surgeons butchers and calling women on Twitter ugly is not civil.

[Danioover9000]

@BeHereNow

31 minutes ago, BeHereNow said:

I don't see how his sudden jump into the spotlight excuses him of being a hateful grifter. Also it's not like his points can be presented in a more civil way, his points are why people find him repugnant.

Maybe it's a little hard for a non-trans person to understand because there's a few of us to relate too, but when you have someone call Elliott's Paige's surgeon a butcher for simply performing top surgery on a consenting adult, it sets off so many red flags and alarm bells that what ever else that person says that can be considered a "good point", it's irrelevant. It just comes off as Nazi-esque to me.

   Is this the video? I do agree that's a bit nasty. For context, he came at Elliot Pager, and Twitter, because Elliot Pager and/or other left leaning extremists were mass reporting him on Twitter, which got his account banned:

   Also, not only does he have traditional/conservative values, but does have some religious leanings to Christianity, and Leo's take on his intellectual honesty and merit is on his psychology rather than on his politics.

   However, the question still remains: Can you put aside your bias, and assume his, and understand and empathize with where he's coming from? Otherwise, why are you here in this forum, in Actualized.org? To be close minded and dogmatic, or to be more openminded and willing to learn from perspectives not your own?

Edited November 2, 2022 by Danioover9000

[Carl-Richard]

@Danioover9000 This is very tangential and a bit out there and also a little personal, so please don't take offense, but I remember you once called some streamer who got triggered by Mr. Girl's talking style "autistic AND schizophrenic" in that they prefer to use highly literal language. That is of course commonly known to be true for autism, but I was surprised why you would mention schizophrenia, but indeed, it does seem to be true for schizophrenia as well: "[...] several studies confirm that schizophrenia patients often choose concrete interpretations when asked to interpret figurative language." (Brune & Bodenstein 2005; Chapman 1960; Kiang et al. 2007).

Now, you're a pretty literal guy, and you also say you see things that other people don't see (your long-term contact with a spiritual entity), so I'm just curious, do you also experience other symptoms commonly associated with schizophrenia? Note: I'm not trying to infer that you would qualify for a diagnosis (as that requires many more criteria than just a few symptoms), and it's not like I would care anyway, but nevertheless, I'm curious.

Edited November 2, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[Danioover9000]

@Carl-Richard

14 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

They were always a public group or at least intended to be, they became famous decades before 2016, and it was not due to a controversial political opinion (that is what I really meant by "controversial position"; sorry, I should've clarified that, you being overly literal and stuff ).

 

It's an explanation, not an excuse.

 

Calling surgeons butchers and calling women on Twitter ugly is not civil.

   Actually, the precise point of what got them the most hate from the internet, is a negative opinion of a comedian in some interview saying Nickle back songs suck. That's it. That really is what it took to spark the mass negative memes of Nickle Back, their songs sucks. Mind boggling!

   I think JP's behavior in Twitter was a bit rough but considering his fast raise to fame and worldly political attention, that also increased the number of left leaning young people to hate him much more, it may also have something to do with the lobster interview as well. It can be harder to imagine being on JP'S position, having to deal with increasing hate from the left and from SJW's/hippies in Canada and in America. 

[Danioover9000]

@Carl-Richard

5 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

@Danioover9000 This is very tangential and a bit out there and also a little personal, so please don't take offense, but I remember you once called some streamer who got triggered by Mr. Girl's talking style "autistic AND schizophrenic" in that they prefer to use highly literal language. That is more commonly know to be true for autism, but I was surprised why you would mention schizophrenia, but indeed, it does seem to be true for schizophrenia as well: "[...] several studies confirm that schizophrenia patients often choose concrete interpretations when asked to interpret figurative language." (Brune & Bodenstein 2005; Chapman 1960; Kiang et al. 2007).

Now, you're a pretty literal guy, and you also say you see things that other people don't see (your long-term contact with a spiritual entity), so I'm just curious, do you also experience other symptoms commonly associated with schizophrenia? Note: I'm not trying to infer that you would qualify for a diagnosis (as that requires many more criteria than just a few symptoms), and it's not like I would care anyway, but nevertheless, I'm curious.

   You got me. Although I don't recall calling a streamer 'autistic AND schizophrenic'. Was it in the spiritual sub-forum? That user was conflating Leo's advanced spiritual insights like GOD realization and awakening, but then mentioned that he was in a psych ward for 3 months roughly taking medication and how he had hundreds of voices in his mind about angels and demons, so I was triggered to post in that thread and make clear distinctions between the advanced spiritual stuff with the basic life stuff because I felt that he was conflating.

   Yes, I am a literal guy, and I might have mild schizophrenia. Apart from my paranormal and supernatural experiences with Crysty and my childhood haunting, and a few mystical and meditative experiences recently, and a few psychedelic experiences from holo tropic breathwork, I'm mostly a normal person, that has traversed to several countries, and played many types of video games. These combinations of life experiences have made my view a bit bigger slightly above average. 

[Danioover9000]

@BeHereNow    Probably someone for you to study and emulate, in terms of being open minded and willing to learn stuff, not only is it Leo Gura or Daniel Schmachtenberger, but also Contra points, who not only is a YouTuber and streamer, but also a transgender person herself. Contra Points isn't a perfect person herself, but for studying and emulating her style, pick what works and what doesn't from her character.

[Tyler Robinson]

1 hour ago, Carl-Richard said:

Calling surgeons butchers and calling women on Twitter ugly is not civil.

 

[Danioover9000]

   I swear, of mice and men, that I'm nice in kinds of pens. The only thing I regret, is the meanings that you don't get. Hopeful you get it, don't regress, don't you forget it!

[Carl-Richard]

42 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

You got me. Although I don't recall calling a streamer 'autistic AND schizophrenic'. Was it in the spiritual sub-forum?

His name is Bowblax, I remember now. He had an absolute meltdown:

3:31:53 

Btw Destiny looks fucking hot in that pic ??

[Leo Gura]

JP is not open to trans stuff because he believes it harms more cis kids than it helps trans kids because it undermines gender norms.

Public policy is not about helping one narrow group of people, it is about what's best for the whole.

Edited November 3, 2022 by Leo Gura

[DrugsBunny]

Leo has shit on JP a lot, at least here on the forum I've noticed. But yeah stuff like this:

12 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

JP is not open to trans stuff because he believes it harms more cis kids than it helps trans kids because it undermines gender norms.

Public policy is not about helping one narrow group of people, it is about what's best for the whole.

is pretty sus.

Why frame it as some intellectually holistic approach rather than the obvious transphobia that it clearly is?

Do you actually think cis kids are being harmed because trans kids are being afforded greater means to pursue their true identity? I'm gonna need you to show your math on that one.

[Razard86]

5 hours ago, BeHereNow said:

I think he's a shameless grifter using peusdo-intellectualism as a cloak for his bigotry.

 

^ Do you realize what you just said? You literally called Jordan Peterson a con artist. If you make a claim like that you would need actual events that can substantiate your claim. How do I know YOU aren't a con artist? Look you have some strong emotions against Jordan Peterson sure, but you can't go around just calling people con artists because what they say offends you. Also for Jordan Peterson to be Con Artist...he would have to NOT believe what he is saying (Like Donald Trump for example who just lies all the time) I truly believe that every word that comes out of Jordan Peterson's mouth is what he believes.

Now someone can be wrong and not a liar, as a lie is a conscious attempt to deceive someone which means you are AWARE the information you are giving you do not believe. Jordan Peterson has biases sure, but....what person doesn't? Right now....your bias against Jordan Peterson is showing. You would only like Jordan Peterson if he says things you like....that's bias, and its also controlling. 

Life is going to continually expose you to people you don't agree with, you can choose to ignore them or contend with them/debate them. Either way the whole point of having a POV (point of view) is it is inevitably going to conflict with other POV. Its normal and a natural part of life. What becomes a blind spot is when you start demonizing others because they don't agree with you. 

Is Jordan Peterson biased? Yes. Is he full of fear? Yes. Does he do the best he is currently capable of to operate from the level of development he is at? Absolutely. The man is a product of every single event in his life, outside of some Eckhart Tolle instant enlightment he is pretty much set on what he believes. I do not believe he is ready to plunge any further into the unknown so he will dance around the edges. As a result he is going to have biases about Transgenders and whatever makes sense from his perspective. It isn't malicious he ACTUALLY BELIEVES HE IS RIGHT. But he isn't brave enough....to drop everything he believes in and investigate beyond his normal education into deep metaphysical territory on the nature of reality. 

[DrugsBunny]

35 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

for Jordan Peterson to be Con Artist...he would have to NOT believe what he is saying

They said he was a "grifter" which does not necessarily mean he doesn't believe what he says, more-so that his main motivation towards spouting his rhetoric is based on material incentives and that his perspective is heavily influenced by whatever fares best for his branding.

35 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

How do I know YOU aren't a con artist? Look you have some strong emotions against Jordan Peterson sure, but you can't go around just calling people con artists because what they say offends you. Also for Jordan Peterson to be Con Artist...he would have to NOT believe what he is saying

This is pretty dumb. The emotional hounding you're subjecting this person to is unnecessary because their statement calling him a grifter is more of a speculative assessment based on his behavior rather than a falsifiable claim that warrants strict supporting evidence. Not to say that casting speculative aspersions never needs evidence, I'm saying the temperament of the their remark does not warrant your demands for some nebulous onrush of 'proof' which likely wouldn't even be accepted if it were provided. 

The evidence is blatantly apparent to anyone who's willing to contend with it. The dude harasses trans people on twitter and complains that he got his account suspended. Do you really think any person who isn't compelled by a necessity to uphold their brand could possibly believe that they are being victimized by not being allowed to harass trans people. Obvious grifter behavior.

I tend to enjoy reading your perspectives here, but this was just embarrassing to read.  

Edited November 3, 2022 by DrugsBunny

[Razard86]

1 hour ago, DrugsBunny said:

They said he was a "grifter" which does not necessarily mean he doesn't believe what he says, more-so that his main motivation towards spouting his rhetoric is based on material incentives and that his perspective is heavily influenced by whatever fares best for his branding.

This is pretty dumb. The emotional hounding you're subjecting this person to is unnecessary because their statement calling him a grifter is more of a speculative assessment based on his behavior rather than a falsifiable claim that warrants strict supporting evidence. Not to say that casting speculative aspersions never needs evidence, I'm saying the temperament of the their remark does not warrant your demands for some nebulous onrush of 'proof' which likely wouldn't even be accepted if it were provided. 

The evidence is blatantly apparent to anyone who's willing to contend with it. The dude harasses trans people on twitter and complains that he got his account suspended. Do you really think any person who isn't compelled by a necessity to uphold their brand could possibly believe that they are being victimized by not being allowed to harass trans people. Obvious grifter behavior.

I tend to enjoy reading your perspectives here, but this was just embarrassing to read.  

Here is the definition of a grifter. https://www.google.com/search?q=Grifter+definition&rlz=1C1VDKB_enUS991US992&oq=Grifter+definition&aqs=chrome..69i57.5236j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Here is another source. https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/grifter

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/grift

Here is another source. How many sources do you want? A grifter is a CON ARTIST. 

 

Okay now let's address your next points. 

1 hour ago, DrugsBunny said:

This is pretty dumb. The emotional hounding you're subjecting this person to is unnecessary because their statement calling him a grifter is more of a speculative assessment based on his behavior rather than a falsifiable claim that warrants strict supporting evidence. Not to say that casting speculative aspersions never needs evidence, I'm saying the temperament of the their remark does not warrant your demands for some nebulous onrush of 'proof' which likely wouldn't even be accepted if it were provided. 

The evidence is blatantly apparent to anyone who's willing to contend with it. The dude harasses trans people on twitter and complains that he got his account suspended. Do you really think any person who isn't compelled by a necessity to uphold their brand could possibly believe that they are being victimized by not being allowed to harass trans people. Obvious grifter behavior.

I tend to enjoy reading your perspectives here, but this was just embarrassing to read.  

You said I put the person through emotional hounding? You would need to explain this one because that is something that is completely subjective. In truth you are projecting your own biases now onto me in how I am supposed to respond? 

So now you are telling me HOW I need to respond? Look at all this self-righteousness? Listen DrugsBunny, the world does not revolve around your opinion. You do not have the authority of the right to tell someone HOW they should respond to someone. Do you have any clue how much arrogance is within you to TELL SOMEONE how they SHOULD or SHOULD NOT respond. Now you can make a suggestion....sure that is warrantable. But you are sitting here telling me HOW to respond? 
 

Especially...when you literally tried to correct me and YOU WERE WRONG. And you say I AM EMBARRASSING? You did not know that a grifter was a con artist. And instead of using a SIMPLE GOOGLE SEARCH to find that out. You responded immediately because what I wrote triggered you. GOOD that trigger is something telling you that there is deep hurt inside. THAT is why you came to their defense. You should be asking yourself WHY did what I type trigger you.

I am not responsible for your emotion or anyone's emotions. Your emotions are YOUR CREATION. Stop blaming me or telling me HOW to respond. You can offer suggestions maybe let me know that maybe I was being too harsh. But first...LEARN WHAT A GRIFTER IS!!! That term is VERY OLD, VERYYYY OLD. 

A grifter is a person who engages in confidence games, they trick people into believing in them to gain something. If you did ANY research into Jordan Peterson's life he is FAR from a grifter. VERYYYYY FAR. You would need EVIDENCE to PROVE that. The man has a clinical practice which means HE IS LICENSED!!! WHICH MEANS HE IS GOVERNED BY AN ETHICS BOARD!!! To claim he is a con artist is a SERIOUS offence and could get him to LOSE his license!!! 

If you made a claim of him being a grifter in a magazine HE WOULD SUE YOU FOR LIBEL!!! Then you would have to PROVE how your assertions ARE TRUE!!! EASY to do for someone like Donald Trump!!! But Jordan Peterson? Good luck!!

Now I say all the above with Love and Care!!! But PLEASE!!!! PLEASE!!!! Do some research before you respond to me!!! I stopped giving in to debates in the past for a reason....I really don't want to debate with anyone....because most people....only want to emotionally vent and defend their biases.

Edited November 3, 2022 by Razard86

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, DrugsBunny said:

Why frame it as some intellectually holistic approach rather than the obvious transphobia that it clearly is?

Because that is his position, regardless of whether you agree with it or not.

The fact that you cannot articulate his position properly says more about you than it does about him.

Quote

Do you actually think cis kids are being harmed because trans kids are being afforded greater means to pursue their true identity?

That is the conservative position. It is not absurd to suggest that confusion about gender roles can harm kids. Given that trans people are such a tiny percentage of the population (<1%), making even 2% of the non-trans kids confused could lead to a net negative effect.

The meta problem here is that you guys do not understand the conservative position. So you demonize it as transphobia. Playing around with deep cultural norms, like gender, can cause great harm if done mindlessly. That is the conservative worldview.

Many boys could be getting hurt by not being taught how to be proper men. We have an epidemic of guys not knowing how to get laid.

Of course JP takes it too far when he calls Elliot Paige's doctor a butcher and compares it to Nazi medical experiments. JP's communications contain both signal and noise. But it's your responsibility to sort that out.

Edited November 3, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Ulax]

@BeHereNow I think you're projecting a load of things onto Peterson and not realising/ accepting that that is what you are doing.