I'm still not convinced Jordan Peterson is anything other than a resentful bigot

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, DrugsBunny said:

If you aren't willing to admit that people who are conscientious enough to accept trans people fully are better for society than those who are too weak to, you're just being dishonest.

And it would also be better for society if everyone understood differential calculus. However most people struggle learning it because most people aren't so bright. These are the people who do all your hard manual jobs ans tend to be conservative.

Edited November 4, 2022 by Leo Gura

[something_else]

3 hours ago, DrugsBunny said:

If you aren't willing to admit that people who are conscientious enough to accept trans people fully are better for society than those who are too weak to, you're just being dishonest.

You keep ignoring it when this particular point is made in this thread:

Being cautious about fucking with gender/identity is not an unwise position.

There could be unforeseen consequences of promoting trans ideas so heavily to young people. It could seriously fuck up their identity. Transitioning to a new gender should not be something that is considered so lightly because it causes radical and irreversible changes to a person, physically and mentally. And it may have unforeseen consequences for those kids who are not even trans in the first place but essentially get indoctrinated into that worldview.

^This is the conservative position for non-bigoted conservatives. Some are just bigoted, sure, but not all. The conservative position is based around being cautious of changing the status quo because rapid change can be dangerous, and cause more damage than it fixes.

[Danioover9000]

@something_else

3 hours ago, something_else said:

You keep ignoring it when this particular point is made in this thread:

Being cautious about fucking with gender/identity is not an unwise position.

There could be unforeseen consequences of promoting trans ideas so heavily to young people. It could seriously fuck up their identity. Transitioning to a new gender should not be something that is considered so lightly because it causes radical and irreversible changes to a person, physically and mentally. And it may have unforeseen consequences for those kids who are not even trans in the first place but essentially get indoctrinated into that worldview.

^This is the conservative position for non-bigoted conservatives. Some are just bigoted, sure, but not all. The conservative position is based around being cautious of changing the status quo because rapid change can be dangerous, and cause more damage than it fixes.

   Good take, most progressives and socialists and tankies don't appreciate how humanity has a deep fear of rapid change.

[Danioover9000]

@Florian

5 hours ago, Florian said:

Maybe imagine this: A man born in a womans body that has a conservative mind (he wants to keep order intact to keep society alive) feels like having a influence on society is his life purpose and decides to become a politican. His situation is really tricky since one side of him is pulling him to the conservatives who hate transgender people cause of his purpose and another side of him pulls him to the progressive transgender community who hates conservatives, cause he wants to survive and thats where he feels save. Now a person who wasnt consious of both those side inside him/herself would propably be ripped apart internally by this inner conflict, but lets say this man is a very consious human and is aware of these two contradicting aspects in himself. He consiously contemplates what he values more and how he should act. He comes to the conclusion that it is more imporant to him to keep the society alive and become a conservative politician even though that means he will have to sacrifice love for the part of him that is transgender that will have to suffer from this decision, since the core of this society isnt developed enough to fully integrate transgenders. He doesnt resent society for denying him the love he feels like he deserves as a transgender person but accepts the fact that society just isnt developed enough yet and is grateful for the fact that society even gives him the chance to have had a rather save life with enough food, shelter, order, education, entertainment and a lot of other things that he wouldnt have otherwise. Life is mercilessly brutal and humankind had to go through a lot of shit to make things better for future generations. 

Edit: How would you think/feel about such a person?

@DrugsBunny @Heart of Space @Danioover9000 @BeHereNow

   It's likely to be that such a person has multiple personality disorder and needs to seek professional help first, get this person sorted out first, before pursuing leadership roles.

[DrugsBunny]

4 hours ago, something_else said:

There could be unforeseen consequences of promoting trans ideas so heavily to young people. It could seriously fuck up their identity. Transitioning to a new gender should not be something that is considered so lightly because it causes radical and irreversible changes to a person, physically and mentally. And it may have unforeseen consequences for those kids who are not even trans in the first place but essentially get indoctrinated into that worldview.

Another misguided victim of blind submission to the undue authority they've haphazardly lent to Leo.

It's not even an intelligent nor difficult point to refute that you're making... In actuality, a youth with gender dysphoria is afforded extensive psychological screening to determine the necessity for what is clearly a life changing decision. Once it is unambiguously determined that such a person would benefit from surgery, they are first given hormonal therapy which temporarily impedes puberty so the kid can later on make a more informed decision as to whether the actual surgery is something they are going to want. If not, they just stop taking the puberty blockers and literally no harm is done. Reverse surgery is also possible worst case scenario...

There are statistics verifying that people with gender dysphoria who have surgery far more often than not experience more comfort with their new identity than had they not transitioned. You obviously don't care about these undeniable facts because they interfere with your overriding desire to reject trans people. Saying "we should not accept trans people because there might be some nebulous unforeseeable consequence" is just an expression of your prejudice towards them. Try saying the same thing towards any other marginalized group.

4 hours ago, something_else said:

You keep ignoring it when this particular point is made in this thread:

Being cautious about fucking with gender/identity is not an unwise position.

No shit, being cautious is never unwise, but your idea of cautious is just denying trans people the pursuit of their true identity in favor of hopefully avoiding some unforeseen consequence that you can't even prove exists. It's not surprising you fail to actually demonstrate explicitly where the consequence lies. Not surprising at all.

Next he's gonna pretend that he isn't condoning the conservative position but just emphasizing its non-bigoted perspective while habitually giving unremitting deference to Leo's authority, as if going for the next appointed moderator position. 

[eggopm3]

6 minutes ago, DrugsBunny said:

It's not even an intelligent nor difficult point to refute that you're making... In actuality, a youth with gender dysphoria is afforded extensive psychological screening to determine the necessity for what is clearly a life changing decision. Once it is unambiguously determined that such a person would benefit from surgery, they are first given hormonal therapy which temporarily impedes puberty so the kid can later on make a more informed decision as to whether the actual surgery is something they are going to want. If not, they just stop taking the puberty blockers and literally no harm is done. Reverse surgery is also possible worst case scenario...

extensive psychological screening by who exactly? Are they trustworthy? do we place full trust in the authority of whoever "unambiguously determined" something so subjective?

"literally no harm is done" by puberty blockers... How does radically interrupting the natural hormone system of a child equal no harm? How do you know that putting kids though such stressful and confusing circumstances at such an important stage of development won't have long-lasting psychological effects for the rest of their lives?

37 minutes ago, DrugsBunny said:

There are statistics verifying that people with gender dysphoria who have surgery far more often than not experience more comfort with their new identity than had they not transitioned. You obviously don't care about these undeniable facts because they interfere with your overriding desire to reject trans people. Saying "we should not accept trans people because there might be some nebulous unforeseeable consequence" is just an expression of your prejudice towards them. Try saying the same thing towards any other marginalized group.

it's also an undeniable fact that de-trans people are real. that is far more than "some nebulous unforeseeable consequence". Imagine being convinced for years that you should be one way only to realize you were wrong after you've already made numerous irreversible alterations to your body. Is a growing population of de-trans folks the collateral damage that we have to accept if we want to be trans-inclusive? Is that trade off worth making?

[something_else]

34 minutes ago, DrugsBunny said:

No shit, being cautious is never unwise, but your idea of cautious is just denying trans people the pursuit of their true identity in favor of hopefully avoiding some unforeseen consequence that you can't even prove exists. It's not surprising you fail to actually demonstrate explicitly where the consequence lies. Not surprising at all.

Next he's gonna pretend that he isn't condoning the conservative position but just emphasizing its non-bigoted perspective while habitually giving unremitting deference to Leo's authority, as if going for the next appointed moderator position.

In truth my actual viewpoint is closer to yours. I don't think anyone should be denied the opportunity to purse their true identity, I think young people with gender dysphoria should be given extensive care, attention, therapy and helped in every way possible. I'm not anti-trans

I was just playing devils advocate and empathising a bit with the conservative world view instead of just outright calling them bigots. I did frame it quite aggressively towards you which might explain why you were so aggressive back, I probably shouldn't have done that, sorry

Even if you think they're all bigots, it can be helpful to try and understand their viewpoint instead of just dismissing them and trying to beat them into submission. You won't change anyone's mind like that, you'll just make them defensive. Especially conservative minded people

Their concerns are based in wanting to preserve traditions and avoid making changes that irreversibly damage society. That's the core of the conservative world view. I can see it isn't a completely unwise position even if I don't agree with it.

It is very possible that widespread messing with identity and gender could have unforeseen consequences even if we don't know what they are yet. In the long term I still think it's a necessary step for us to take as it is clearly an important issue for many with gender dysphoria that needs to be addressed

[newbee]

On 3-11-2022 at 5:02 AM, DrugsBunny said:

@Leo Gura 

If I wanted to gaslight you, I would respond to this by saying "the fact that you can't actually give examples where the harm would occur" says more about you than about this matter, but I can see you simply opted not to for the sake of brevity. 

If you want this position to be respected you should provide an example where this would actually hurt cis kids, but I imagine you'd be pretty hard-pressed to do so.

 

ROFL have you been living under a rock or what?!

 

I can give you plenty of examples of people who made the transition and regret afterwards , even those who started as adults, so you can only imagine how many kids will be harmed if plenty of adults aren't stable either in their identities and have to admit what was done to them despite their consent was harmful.

 

 

 

 

 

This is just a handful, but there's plenty more horror stories if you look for it.  Of course, if you're so narrow minded that you refuse to leave your leftie bubble in order to truly be open and actually listen to people's stories that don't fit your narrative, you may never find them.

 

[Danioover9000]

@newbee

1 hour ago, newbee said:

 

ROFL have you been living under a rock or what?!

 

I can give you plenty of examples of people who made the transition and regret afterwards , even those who started as adults, so you can only imagine how many kids will be harmed if plenty of adults aren't stable either in their identities and have to admit what was done to them despite their consent was harmful.

 

 

 

 

 

This is just a handful, but there's plenty more horror stories if you look for it.  Of course, if you're so narrow minded that you refuse to leave your leftie bubble in order to truly be open and actually listen to people's stories that don't fit your narrative, you may never find them.

 

   These are really good videos. Thanks for sharing. Shows that this isn't just mind games, but they do have real consequences that some would regret.

[newbee]

3 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@newbee

   These are really good videos. Thanks for sharing. Shows that this isn't just mind games, but they do have real consequences that some would regret.

Of course, both Blaire White and Buck Angel are trans and have a bunch of interviews with people who regretted transitioning and have criticism on the toxicity of the trans community.  I also recall a drag queen who wanted to warn parents on accepting drag queens in schools to teach their children or those who take their kids to drag shows as he thought they don't belong there since there is a lot of filthy and dirty, sexual behavior as well as drug usage going on behind the scenes which children shouldn't be exposed to.  I can't find the video back but that was the actual drag queen's opinion, so it's not just 'the stereotypical conservatives' who share this opinion.

 

 

 

 

[martins name]

"Nobody is intelligent enough to be 100% right 100% of the time"
-Ken Wilber

[newbee]

5 minutes ago, newbee said:

Of course, both Blaire White and Buck Angel are trans and have a bunch of interviews with people who regretted transitioning and have criticism on the toxicity of the trans community.  I also recall a drag queen who wanted to warn parents on accepting drag queens in schools to teach their children or those who take their kids to drag shows as he thought they don't belong there since there is a lot of filthy and dirty, sexual behavior as well as drug usage going on behind the scenes which children shouldn't be exposed to.  I can't find the video back but that was the actual drag queen's opinion, so it's not just 'the stereotypical conservatives' who share this opinion.

 

 

 

 

Ah I just found the video of this drag queen's excellent commentary to the toxic woke lunacy of thinking it's oh so cool to have drag queens read books to their kids in school as it makes really no sense:

 

[julienw]

On 11/3/2022 at 0:07 AM, Leo Gura said:

We have an epidemic of Incels because boys are not being properly taught how to be strong men. The number of Incels way outnumber trans people. And these Incels cause a lot of social chaos. It's also not good for women.

Are you potentially confusing correlation for causation? Just because there is an epidemic of incels currently, it does not mean that it is caused by progressive trans and other non-binary ideology, in my opinion. Even more, incels are usually how old--20-30 year old men, right? Well the trans and LGBTQ+ phenomenon in the way it is unfolding now is relatively new as of the last 5 years I would say, in terms of mainstream dialogue. The failure of boys to learn how to be men has more to do with the way their parents raised them 10-20+ years ago, not contemporary trans discussions and rights being afforded and LGBTQ+ education happening in school. I'm a 27 year old straight dude and pretty much all of my guy friends are in relationships or at the very least have had plenty of sex. I don't know where this idea of "epidemic of incels" is coming from, in the sense that epidemic implies a mass scale. I don't see this happening on a mass scale. And I don't see the causal relationship between uplifting trans folks and men not being able to get laid. Like honestly, what is the relationship? I would also propose that the reason the number of incels way outnumbers trans people is precisely because of an overreaction to the alleged boogeyman of LGBTQ+ rights and trans acceptance, and awkward neckbeard virgins looking for something or someone to blame for their inability to have sex. Nobody taught me how to get laid, it just sort of happened as a natural product of growing up and being in my early 20s at university. And any sane straight man would know that there is no one to blame for their lack of sex but themselves.

Edited November 4, 2022 by julienw

[Florian]

@Danioover9000 Bruh, I guess either my point didnt come across or you are kinda stuck.

Whatever, I don't really like you guys anyways.

[EternalForest]

@julienw You are the average of the people you spend time around. All your friends have plenty of sex because you're in a sexually active friend group. It might be hard to believe, but there are entire friend groups of guys who can't get any sex at all, and those groups are very common.

[Danioover9000]

@Florian

4 minutes ago, Florian said:

@Danioover9000 Bruh, I guess either my point didnt come across or you are kinda stuck.

Whatever, I don't really like you guys anyways.

   Because I'm not interested in engaging with a user straw manning my examples against me?

[julienw]

@EternalForest

7 minutes ago, EternalForest said:

@julienw You are the average of the people you spend time around. All your friends have plenty of sex because you're in a sexually active friend group. It might be hard to believe, but there are entire friend groups of guys who can't get any sex at all, and those groups are very common.

That sucks but I still don't see how teaching kids that there can be more than two genders causes a 25 year old loser to not know how to get laid. Just get on Tinder or whatever and find someone. Go to the club, talk to girls. If you have something to offer then it should be possible. If you have nothing to offer then work on yourself until you do. Looks, money, confidence, whatever it is these guys are lacking it's not the fault of trans education and opening society up to this possibility for their lack of sex, again--in my opinion. I believe that it's because these dudes don't even try to get laid, or they don't know how to try. Maybe they should educate themselves on how to attract women instead of blaming women for their sexlessness. Also, if you look at the incel community, I'm pretty sure their problem is with women not having sex with them, not trans rights. Again, I just don't see the connection between LGBTQ+ stuff and incel ideology. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but it's not immediately clear to me.

Also, we need to normalize that not having constant sex is totally fine. I went two years in my early 20s without having any sex at all. It was just because I was a bit shy and insecure and sex wasn't my priority. There's nothing fundamentally wrong about not having access to sex on a regular basis. It's what makes getting it all the more of an accomplishment.

Edited November 4, 2022 by julienw

[EternalForest]

1 minute ago, julienw said:

@EternalForest

That sucks but I still don't see how teaching kids that there can be more than two genders causes a 25 year old loser to not know how to get laid. Just get on Tinder or whatever and find someone. Go to the club, talk to girls. If you have something to offer then it should be possible. If you have nothing to offer then work on yourself until you do. Looks, money, confidence, whatever it is these guys are lacking it's not the fault of trans education and opening society up to this possibility for their lack of sex, again--in my opinion.

I don't see the correlation between trans and incels either (although many trans people are incels and many incels are trans).

Didn't want to derail the thread too much, I was just pointing out that just because incels aren't in your field of experience doesn't mean they aren't very common

[Danioover9000]

@EternalForest

4 minutes ago, EternalForest said:

@julienw You are the average of the people you spend time around. All your friends have plenty of sex because you're in a sexually active friend group. It might be hard to believe, but there are entire friend groups of guys who can't get any sex at all, and those groups are very common.

   So true.

[Danioover9000]

@julienw

4 minutes ago, julienw said:

@EternalForest

That sucks but I still don't see how teaching kids that there can be more than two genders causes a 25 year old loser to not know how to get laid. Just get on Tinder or whatever and find someone. Go to the club, talk to girls. If you have something to offer then it should be possible. If you have nothing to offer then work on yourself until you do. Looks, money, confidence, whatever it is these guys are lacking it's not the fault of trans education and opening society up to this possibility for their lack of sex, again--in my opinion. I believe that it's because these dudes don't even try to get laid, or they don't know how to try. Maybe they should educate themselves on how to attract women instead of blaming women for their sexlessness. Also, if you look at the incel community, I'm pretty sure their problem is with women not having sex with them, not trans rights. Again, I just don't see the connection between LGBTQ+ stuff and incel ideology. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but it's not immediately clear to me.

   Since it's not that clear for you, why did you generally demonize an entire community, calling them losers in sex in average, while not acknowledging there are some that won't and/or can't get laid like normal people? Why you got to simplify and whittle the entire problem like it's mostly a SD orange lack of transactional offer?