I'm still not convinced Jordan Peterson is anything other than a resentful bigot

[Leo Gura]

If you're gonna take that approach, you should be even-handed and also call progressives climatephobic and wealthphobic.

[Topspin715]

41 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

If you're gonna take that approach, you should be even-handed and also call progressives climatephobic and wealthphobic.

Carbon phobic maybe.  Progressives aren't afraid of wealth, they mostly just indiscriminately despise it and the people that hold it.  And not all progressives of course, but the more extreme ones.

[DrugsBunny]

49 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

If you're gonna take that approach, you should be even-handed and also call progressives climatephobic and wealthphobic.

You can call me naziphobic and pretend it's a bad thing.

[Leo Gura]

@DrugsBunny I'll call you truthphobic

[UpperMaster]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The point is simply that when you toy with culture you can create all sorts of unforeseen negative consequences. To not take this possibility seriously is the error of liberalism.

@Leo Gura

Do you think that the existing culture is good? How so?

I'm not asking whether transgenderism in our culture could cause negative consequences, but rather just generally, should our current culture and gender roles be kept the same?

 

 

[BeHereNow]

@Danioover9000 @Danioover9000

12 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

 

(Sorry about the gore above not sure how to get rid of it.)

Some interesting stuff in this thread to consider, a few new angles to look. I don't think JP is evil by any means if that was the impression I gave, I have a very strong bias against conservatism and I just think most of the ideology is repugnant (while other parts of it I find admirable). I'll admit there is some resistance for me to fully understand it, although I probably should for my own sake.

[Leo Gura]

54 minutes ago, UpperMaster said:

@Leo Gura

Do you think that the existing culture is good? How so?

It's better than it could otherwise be.

Quote

I'm not asking whether transgenderism in our culture could cause negative consequences, but rather just generally, should our current culture and gender roles be kept the same?

It couldn't be kept the same even if he wanted. But you should be careful when trying to change it that you don't make it worse. It's far easier to make a thing worse than make it better.

Edited November 3, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Topspin715]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

It couldn't be kept the same even if he wanted. But you should be careful when trying to change it that you don't make it worse. It's far easier to make a thing worse than make it better.

I see the increase in transgender and non-binary identification as a symptom of failing gender norms and a weakening culture.  Like with any crisis, these things can be self-reinforcing as they seem to be, but I think they're a sign that society's relationship with gender is breaking down and will have to be re-invented a degree.

 

If you are a religious trad and have traditional gender roles then the old norms still work, but we no longer live in a world where women have to stay at home and cook and clean and produce and raise children.  But the introduction of so many women into the work force introduces other unexpected imbalances and men need to find a way to adapt.  the old way of doing things works for religious people but not for people who live in the secular world.

 

Been thinking about how to explain this for a while and this is where I am now.  I don't think increasing acceptance of trans issues and rights necessarily undermines our culture but it becomes a group for people to join when traditional roles no longer fit them and they don't have a better place to go.

[gettoefl]

11 hours ago, DrugsBunny said:

5 are5You would have to demonstrate the clear unambiguous connection between the two, which you have not done. You're just expecting me to believe that this phenomenon has to do with trans people and then ascribing a lack of holistic thinking to anyone who can't see the connection.

As I see it, this phenomenon is obviously the result of social isolation becoming a more feasible survival strategy. The internet, remote jobs, the increase of online streamers who can entertain and thus facilitate parasocial relationships with otherwise lonely people, these are all things that have diminished the necessity for people to leave the house to socialize. It's obviously far more plausible that stuff like this is to blame for men being lonely rather than trans people becoming less stigmatized. 

I mean this is just common sense, it's seriously bizarre that you would blame trans acceptance for this phenomenon rather than the obvious culprit I've just described.

simplistically put

let's say 1% of the population is trans right now .... let's say 10% of one particular school becomes deeply interested in trans issues due to the way it is presented supported well funded and modelled; 9% of these people are playing with fire; they are not trans, since only 1% are, but they are given good grades if they explore empathize and perhaps even role play it for themselves; 

this is helpful for the 1% but harmful for the 9% ... they are experimenting with their own gender and sexuality at a vulnerable stage of their lives; this will have far reaching consequences in their lives and arrest their development

so nine times more damage

[Danioover9000]

@DrugsBunny.

Edited November 3, 2022 by Danioover9000

[Danioover9000]

@BeHereNow

8 hours ago, BeHereNow said:

@Danioover9000 @Danioover9000

 

(Sorry about the gore above not sure how to get rid of it.)

Some interesting stuff in this thread to consider, a few new angles to look. I don't think JP is evil by any means if that was the impression I gave, I have a very strong bias against conservatism and I just think most of the ideology is repugnant (while other parts of it I find admirable). I'll admit there is some resistance for me to fully understand it, although I probably should for my own sake.

   That's fine, that just means there's more work to do to integrate that view into you. Just be vigilant that it doesn't make you blindly hate JP, or other people with a differing opinion of transgender or transexuality.

[Stovo]

It's super harmful to the progressive cause to label people they disagree with as transphobes, racists, sexists, etc. 

The cancel culture policy of the left is now causing a right wing backlash because these leftist views are too extreme for most of the population. 

[EternalForest]

@BeHereNow By that logic, everyone who isn't pro-trans is a bad person. That is a dangerous precedent to set. There are plenty of great people throughout history who may not have your 2022 values.

Edited November 4, 2022 by EternalForest

[DrugsBunny]

25 minutes ago, EternalForest said:

@BeHereNow By that logic, everyone who isn't pro-trans is a bad person.

Yes, you're a bad person if you're anti-trans, just like you're a bad person if you're anti-black, anti-woman or anti-gay. 

Leo wants to have patience for such people, and perhaps a bit of patience is warranted, but what even is bad if we're not basing it relative to what's good. You're certainly being "good" by upholding outdated values through your childlike prejudice. 

Edited November 4, 2022 by DrugsBunny

[EternalForest]

1 minute ago, DrugsBunny said:

Yes, you're a bad person if you're anti-trans, just like you're a bad person if you're anti-black, anti-woman or anti-gay. 

Leo wants to have patience for such people, and perhaps a bit of patience is warranted, but what even is bad if we're not basing it relative to what's good. You're certainly being "good" by upholding outdated values through your childlike prejudice. 

Leo explains this well in recent videos on the Left.

Changing your gender is a radical thing. Everyone around you who has known you as Nate for their entire lives now need to get used to Natalie. It's like you become a new person to them, in a sense. Nate is gone, possibly forever. That shit is radical and not easy to get used to, and otherwise intelligent and open-minded people aren't going to know how to process it.

If someone has trouble accepting their friend/family member after a transition, it doesn't automatically make them BAD.

[EternalForest]

Also, I've noticed from the way you speak, you conflate old definitions and older things as outdated/irrelevant.

I'll tell you this, there are a lot of "outdated" mindsets and ways of doing things that our society would be wise to try on for size again.

[DrugsBunny]

@EternalForest Nobody considers themselves a bad person. Trans people make you uncomfortable, that obviously isn't good for society. If you aren't willing to admit that people who are conscientious enough to accept trans people fully are better for society than those who are too weak to, you're just being dishonest.

[Heart of Space]

I'm thinking about getting a hair transplant just like Jordan Petersons.

The difference is that I feel like a hypocrite brutally mutilating my scalp and then calling gender assignment surgeons Nazi doctors.  

[Florian]

Maybe imagine this: A man born in a womans body that has a conservative mind (he wants to keep order intact to keep society alive) feels like having a influence on society is his life purpose and decides to become a politican. His situation is really tricky since one side of him is pulling him to the conservatives who hate transgender people cause of his purpose and another side of him pulls him to the progressive transgender community who hates conservatives, cause he wants to survive and thats where he feels save. Now a person who wasnt consious of both those side inside him/herself would propably be ripped apart internally by this inner conflict, but lets say this man is a very consious human and is aware of these two contradicting aspects in himself. He consiously contemplates what he values more and how he should act. He comes to the conclusion that it is more imporant to him to keep the society alive and become a conservative politician even though that means he will have to sacrifice love for the part of him that is transgender that will have to suffer from this decision, since the core of this society isnt developed enough to fully integrate transgenders. He doesnt resent society for denying him the love he feels like he deserves as a transgender person but accepts the fact that society just isnt developed enough yet and is grateful for the fact that society even gives him the chance to have had a rather save life with enough food, shelter, order, education, entertainment and a lot of other things that he wouldnt have otherwise. Life is mercilessly brutal and humankind had to go through a lot of shit to make things better for future generations. 

Edit: How would you think/feel about such a person?

@DrugsBunny @Heart of Space @Danioover9000 @BeHereNow

Edited November 4, 2022 by Florian

[EternalForest]

1 hour ago, DrugsBunny said:

@EternalForest Nobody considers themselves a bad person. Trans people make you uncomfortable, that obviously isn't good for society. If you aren't willing to admit that people who are conscientious enough to accept trans people fully are better for society than those who are too weak to, you're just being dishonest.

You addressed nothing I said, instead you only tried to guilt trip me. I am not anti-trans btw