Should You Really Vote?

[Posho]

So apparently we have elections goin here and small businesses and politicians have come up with some sleathy business tactics to not just prompt people to go out and cast their vote but also in a sense that that would support the working of these small businesses. Like you can literally get free desserts now in a high profile restaurant. This is a good enough reason of course to prompt people to cast their vote even if they don't care. Now that's the prob. They'll go out and vote any random person they wish without giving a second thought to what they're doing. My mother literally said that she'll vote this party because their party symbol is quite "appealing"

like what the hell?!?

people believe deeply in this idea that everyone should go out and vote for apparently there have been people in the past who have fought hard to get us our right. Especially in the place I live, the common ideology which the minorities hold is that "our" people have fought hard and we'll cast our vote no matter what!

..even if that means casting your vote blindly. Even Socrates hated domacracy for the exact same reason. Putting down the link. 

So what is your stand and why?

this is today's newspaper clip

Edited February 21, 2017 by Posho

[Loreena]

I don't like democracy . Stupid people voting stupid people. It's a  mutual appreciation society of nuts in majority. Plus the huge problem of identity politics.  In contrast to democracy, I find the idea of epistocracy very appealing.

[pluto]

Those who vote decide nothing,

Those who check the votes decide everything.

[Nahm]

Protesting is the modern version of voting. Electoral system needs reform.

 

 

[Posho]

On 22 February 2017 at 6:21 PM, Nahm said:

Protesting is the modern version of voting. Electoral system needs reform.

 

 

Care to elaborate?

[jse]

75 years ago, Democracy gave Adolf Hitler his power.

In most countries today, the non-elected Deep State has more power than any elected party.

Get your popcorn ready - let's see how Donald Trump is able to deal with this. 

[Dragallur]

Democracy certainly has some flaws though I would say that they are getting more smoothed out the more educated society it. I have to admit that this epistocracy sounds quite interesting but it would be very hard to implement it into today's world..

[FindingPeace]

There's an inherent flaw with democracy. Ultimately it only works in the favour of the majority but even then, it won't work entirely in favour of every person within that majority.

Regardless of the outcome of a vote, there will always be people who are satisfied and people who aren't. Ultimately nothing was solved.

To hold the assumption that the majority should be catered for only excludes the minority. It's all ego games in the end. The strongest collective ego dominates over the lesser collective egos. Everyone wants only what is best for themselves. And everyone wants different things. How can this be resolved?

There is no system within any society that can cater for every person within that system. Someone will always suffer. Ultimately the best you can hope for is a compromise. Democracy can't work, when you look at it.

[h inandout]

I shudder at the idea of an epistocracy.  That's what we had before people of color and women could vote.  We were considered intellectually inferior.  How does one actually measure intelligence without bias anyways?  Citizenship candidates know more about the nitty gritty of American government than most Americans. Does that make them better Americans, and more fit for decision making?  How can we encourage people to become involved in decision making if we repeatedly tell them that they are not fit for making decisions, and they begin to internalize this?  What if the lower class is perpetually forces to forgo their education because their labor is so demanding?

I think one thing that your Socrates video hints at is that one solution could be to attempt to educate all citizens more deeply.  This would take massive ammounts of compassionate work from the few individuals who are set up to really speak out (and they do put out quite an effort).  

Another unlooked piece is how our social interactions on a very micro scale cause massive chain reactions.  I personally don't worry so much about politics because it is what it is, reflecting a weird amalgamation of what the masses think and what the politicians think we think.  How boring to get caught up in such a bull shit game?  I would prefer to play with this game from an individual perspective, and develop my own sense of right and wrong.  I esteem to be more responsible this way.  I don't watch the news ever, and can gather quite a large ammount of data just by listening to how other people speak about it.  I might engage directly with media just for fun, but I'm always so underwhelmed.  Perhaps I would prefer to use my voice in less ridged ways such as voting.

 

[h inandout]

Just went to a charming feminist variety show.  I change my mind about everything.  Learned a lot too.  Won't tell you what, but that mayne give something like that a try some time.

[h inandout]

Wow, I just realized that I kind of contradicted myself in my first response by being incensed by the idea of not being allowed to vote and then by going and saying that I chose not to get involved in politics.  Hmm...  I realized that actually I really do wish I had stepped up to vote for Hillary and studied the other legislative decisions as well.  Bernie even endorsed her.  I also would have gained a greater perspective about the organization in which I live which may have helped or not helped me make future decisions.  The reason I didn't care this time was because I really do line up a bit with the Jehovah's witness plan to not get involved and to just be myself, but that's just one part.  The other darker side is that I felt like total shit about life last fall, and it was more important for me to focus on learning about psychology.  In one way, I suppose I was entrusting the rest of the world to make decisions for me so that I may rest and focus on myself.  The ironic part is that during this time, I actually empowered myself enough to say I don't like how baby boomers and men are running my life in ways I don't like.  I wish I hadn't been so weakened by a crappy relationship to see that I actually give a shit about seeing a woman in the white house.  Fuck demanding perfection.

And yet, I still feel less terrified about the consequences of the whole Trump thing than most even though I really give a shit about racial and sexual advancement.  I also enjoy that we are all having an opportunity to be entertained by the right exposing their darkest ignorance, and it will be a great opportunity for us to reunite. In some ways it really is just entertainment.  In other ways, it's not, and many of us (especially those of us empathetic to any minority cause), are going to suffer direct consequences.  I hope we learn a lesson?

[TJM1959]

On 2/26/2017 at 0:49 PM, Posho said:

Care to elaborate?

No, this posting goes against the posting guidelines..."this is not a political forum".

[Steph1988]

I just voted a few weeks ago in the dutch election but i only did for very specific reasons.

I know damn well that we can not really count on politicians, also they never mention a few things that are so big and important and pervasive but they never talk about it and don't acknowledge them.

- I never hear something really philosophical

- they never talk about the fractional reserve banking system and believe me if u don't know what that is u have been missing out on one of the biggest scams in history

- they talk about global warming but not of a more immediate threat and that is the dwindling resources this is so important and gets so little attention is insane

And yet i voted on what here in the Netherlands is regarded as extreme right wing.

Why? because first of all the refugee problem is getting out of hand and second the media is horribly political correct about it and that bothers me so we need some balance thats all.

If u vote that u risk the chance of being called a racist and whatnot i had arguments in my family about it and that is exactly why i vote right wing. 

[Flare]

9 hours ago, Steph1988 said:

Why? because first of all the refugee problem is getting out of hand and second the media is horribly political correct about it and that bothers me so we need some balance thats all.

If u vote that u risk the chance of being called a racist and whatnot i had arguments in my family about it and that is exactly why i vote right wing. 

I get that this is not a political forum, but in another thread you talked about bullying - dealing with it and why people are doing it and that it does upset you even if done to others. I really appreciated you bringing this topic up in that thread. One question for you: calling people that are from Morocco "scum", as the right wing did, is not bullying? Well you know the answer yourself. Actualizing one self is about keeping/developing your integrity. Good luck to get yours back. 

Democracy at large is the best bad system we have. Every system is screwed. Every system is fragile. And yes you should vote, even for the right wing, if that's what you want - for one simple reason: Homeostasis is killing everything that is existing. The more people that are going to vote the higher the variance gets. Higher variance less homeostasis. No matter what you are voting for. (As long as your voting in line with your values)

Edited March 30, 2017 by Flare

[Steph1988]

@Flare Aye it is hard to not get political here but i don't have a problem with people completely disagreeing with me actually i like that very much i have not had a decent discussion on this without being labeled. 

People from Morocco are by definition not scum of course and i tell you i even worked with several in my life and i liked them very much i work with one right now and we have decent respectful discussions about the Islam i think that is a breath of fresh air.

No party officially states that they are scum by definition and i don't know where you heard that i definitely did not hear that and if i would i would not vote for such a person.

However they are over represented in the crime statistics and that is only the reported stuff it is up to 7 times higher and there are ghetto's here you don't want to be there you so you could say statistically there is more scum amongst them and you would be factually right.

What these right parties want is to have control over the borders again and not let more migrants in from these country's i think seen the problems that is a pragmatic solution to a practical problem.

Now left parties talk much about empathy well what about empathy for the people living in these area's the asylum seekers come to live. Not a word and if u complain u get the label of being someone reacting from the underbelly, a stupid right winger and more.

The left are just as good bullies.

 more reasons and thoughts about this problem

- What about the higher birthrate of these ethnic groups? how much are there in 50 years? are we a minority?

- Islamic violence is increasing here in Europe u don't know how much terrorists are hiding between these people

- for the rest what are they gonna do here? is there a future for them here? well think about it no job,no houses,other climate,other language,other values where is their future perspective? I never heard a true long term plan for the future perspectives for these people from leftists when i discuss this i get only incoherent emotional reactions.

- sheltering these refugees is 10 times cheaper in country's like Saudi Arabia and with same value's/culture there. That country wont do it they should help.

- Islam i think is also something which need to be discussed and when the left states they want to talk they really mean a very comfortable conversation where noone gets upset because no actual content is being discussed. well there needs to be a discussion about the content of Islam with their leaders. Islam had no reformation and this should be looked into.

I would be willing to give Islam the benefit of the doubt if they would discuss the content, the person i have discussions with will not really go into that and that bugs me because i am not seeking to hurt his feelings not at all i want to learn.

the right wing agree's mostly that Islam is completely backwards and u might get hurt by that BUT you know maybe it is and they should be allowed to say it freely and if Muslims are so incredibly sure of their religion they could defend it also completely freely.

These are some reasons i did that vote i thought about it for some time.

But feel free to disagree with me i would like to hear well thought out reasons for completely open borders i think it is a dangerous plan look what happens in Sweden or Germany  or France and if u say there are not that many yet consider this for future generations if their birthrate is higher and you can count on constant new influxes of migrants.  

For the ones we have now we can work with much better i think and can give them a better future if they accept our value's but the pressure has to be off first.

So where in all these reasons is the racism and the bullying? this is a practical problem.

So my integrity is fully intact.

 

Edited March 30, 2017 by Steph1988

[h inandout]

Wow!  Thanks for sharing your perspective, it's really helping me expand mine.  I grew up in Colorado in a segragated rich white patriarchal neighborhood.  I didn't know how many latinos, asians, and blacks actually lived here.  I totally see where you're coming from because from a logical perspective, we want to make sure the money and resources in our countries are being used to the highest benefit, and we all know that throwing money blindly at poverty doesn't fix anything.  

Here is where a major shift in my perspective came: I realized that I too am from Africa.  Africa is just as much my home and family as anybody else's.  This subtly pervading understanding has brought me so much joy and kinship.  I was able to understand Islam from a first person perspective.  A half-black man took note of my complete lack of desire to question his beliefs, and actually let me in on some of what he might have normally been keeping in a safer place in his heart.  He explained to me that Malcolm X was actually incredibly peaceful in his speach and his actions, and we even looked up documentaries, and it's true, but unconcious biases had distracted me.  I had been terrified that someone would call me racist this whole time without realizing it because my mother adamately hated Martin Luther King jr.  I don't wanna be called racist because I really do believe I am a good person, and I wanna know that my actions speak that.  My half black friend actually explained to me that MLK had actually been kinda naughty earlier in life, so it could be understandable that in the collective white unconcious, there are still remanents of long gone beliefs.  Anyone who has taken the time to listen to the speeches of MLK would know immediately, that he had redeemed himself to an incredible extent, and we could all learn from his example.

Islam is not scary.  When I hear the words "I submit my will to Allah," I don't hear, "I would kill the infidels for god."  Instead I hear "when I surrender my resistance to all that creation is, I have a deep sense of peace and knowing, and wish to act from that place." In other words, I know damn well that I believe that the sun is gonna rise tomorrow, so why should I be so torn up over today's seeming lack of success?

[h inandout]

And yes MLK was Christian, but he truely was considered radical and a threat at the time despite his very strict policy of non-violence.  His crew were brutalized severally, but they were not retaliating or rioting as others believed they would.

[Flare]

12 hours ago, Steph1988 said:

But feel free to disagree with me i would like to hear well thought out reasons for completely open borders i think it is a dangerous plan look what happens in Sweden or Germany  or France and if u say there are not that many yet consider this for future generations if their birthrate is higher and you can count on constant new influxes of migrants. 

Trump is that you? Are you official actualizing now? Congrats!

Well guess what, I'm from germany. I'm living here right now and let me tell you, let me be transparent - we got a huge problems. Thousand, literally thousand of people, mostly guys are scaring the shit out of me. I'm afraid where this country is heading. Well guess what, all of them are german, or call themselves to be. They want to bring somebody back that once did one of the biggest damage to humanity. They believe all the lies that they're told hook line and sinker. They fall for the huge trap called "confirmation bias". The leaders of this cult get their votes by creating voices in their heads to be against other people.

Ah and the immigrants. Well, not much of a problem. Actually our police is reporting that their are observing around 800 "radical" islamists and around 7k-8k "radical right wing" guys. Facts are hard to argue with. (Just to be sure you are not bringing leftist up, yes they are around 6k that are observed)

What's actually about Sweden? 

12 hours ago, Steph1988 said:

No party officially states that they are scum by definition and i don't know where you heard that i definitely did not hear that and if i would i would not vote for such a person.

Scum

Yes he is saying not every moroccan is scum. But let me be clear here: no human being is ever scum. No one. That's what you law is stating as well. If you did something wrong you get a fair trial. That's something you can not ignore. 

12 hours ago, Steph1988 said:

- What about the higher birthrate of these ethnic groups? how much are there in 50 years? are we a minority?

Okay wait. I will just stay with you here. You say they have a higher birthrate. If they come to your country they might overrun it. Tell me again how many immigrants did the Netherlands welcome? Did you do the maths? Probably not, because you won't be part of an minority.

Second and most important if they have such birthrates and you're looking ahead 50 years, their countries will have even more people and even less resources - do you really think that won't affect you even more that these settled immigrants in your country? Don't you think these people will stand up one day and tell you that they're sick of us all robbing them? That they want your tv  and be able talk about bullying too instead of being hungry and having the shittiest life you could ever imagine. Well just a phantasy of mine. Problems are only real if they affect us directly. 

12 hours ago, Steph1988 said:

That country wont do it they should help.

I completely agree.

12 hours ago, Steph1988 said:

So where in all these reasons is the racism and the bullying? this is a practical problem.

So my integrity is fully intact.

Read my post again. I never said you're racist, I never said you were bullying (the word is not used in general discussions, so there is a high chance it's directly addressing my post) anyone. I said you tolerated the same behavior and voted for it you were criticizing in a different thread. Nothing more or less. 

Here we got our problem with democracy, to return fully back to our topic. You, sir, have your ego attached to your opinion. That's the flaw in most common problem in democracy, socrates mentioned that as well in his Analogy of the divided line. In a system of competing parties you are more likely to identify with one and fight the other. Our brains are structured to do so, since the most spreading thoughts are thoughts that are coming from a place of anger. You are already assuming that I am judging you with such words only because you think you are part of the group that is commonly confronted with such attacks. Based on that, yes I would still question your integrity. 

To be clear here, I do not care what you are voting for. I'm more concerned about the structure of arguments and you ego that is attached to your opinions. You are so more likely to fall for traps like conformation bias or charismatic leaders that are tricking you. If you vote based on arguments, your arguments should have evidence - real evidence. It's completely fine to vote based on principles. But than say you're voting based on that and don't be so quick to find the first fitting arguments and to abuse them. 

best wishes

Edited March 31, 2017 by Flare

[Steph1988]

@Flare OK lots of stuff i could address but lets make it constructive then i am an open minded person do you have any idea's how to improve things in another way, any suggestions that might be better? i would like to hear it.

Also 

 

Are these lies? u say not much of a problem these migrants so is this not true?

Edited April 1, 2017 by Steph1988

[h inandout]

Just experience life.  I will do the same.