Should You Really Vote?

[Spiral]

I be so "extreme" as to say that i would prefer a meritocracy 

[Flare]

@Steph1988 Your argumentation is so inappropriate. You say you could address a lot of stuff, but you don't do it. Then you bring up a video that still continues the same discussion. So you actually avoiding the part about your own behavior, my arguments about the topic and just try to get a new point which can satisfy your ego. Man thats hard. Makes me sad. 

11 hours ago, Steph1988 said:

Are these lies? u say not much of a problem these migrants so is this not true?

First of all I just addressed my posts mostly at your behavior in a democracy. You also mentioned to not get political here. Then you post one of the most political videos. Well, what a good move. 

This videos is disgusting and makes me sick.

You shouldn't post such things in this forum. I sent you an pm, that topic is highly inappropriate for this thread. Honestly sorry for everyone else.

 

[h inandout]

13 hours ago, Steph1988 said:

Are these lies?

Yes, this is propaganda.  There are soooooo mant assumptions made in this video.  

[Steph1988]

@Flare So its all about me, so far you called me Trump, mentioned carefully some stuff about Hitler,in your PM you refer to my "right wing extremist friends'' ( guess that includes my 2 Moroccan fellows as well? ) it is all about me i guess and my horrible behavior.

So i have to put a thousand disclaimers on my posts from here on so u know i have nothing to do with the extreme right wing? 

I was not avoiding the part of my behavior i think that is not that interesting and my question to you was sincere ''What do u suggest is a better solution''?

about the video i asked if these things were lies.

well i tell you what are not lies in any case 

- The metro attack on london  

- The metro attack in Spain

- The attack on the german Christmas market 

- The attack on the jewish school in toulouse 

- The attack in nice

- The recent attack in london

- The attack in Brussels 

- the assasinations on Theo van Gogh and Pim Fortuin here in my own country

- Charlie hebdo

and on and on and on

For these things a few right wing party's here ( what a corrupted word allready that right wing ) Would like to have some border control and real discussions on the Islam. No deportations mind you.

And for these reasonable proposals you get slandered come on you can do better.

5 hours ago, Flare said:

This videos is disgusting and makes me sick.

You shouldn't post such things in this forum. I sent you an pm, that topic is highly inappropriate for this thread. Honestly sorry for everyone else.

 

Oh i think the actualized crowd can take it it is a little provocative but that is the reason i asked if it were all true which is a reasonable question. 

And you are sorry for everyone? Oh how nice u speak for the whole forum.

If u read my original posts carefully u can see that there is no real dubious stuff there and i asked you what are your better solutions? maybe you are right, maybe my modest proposals were somehow not right well then point it out.

I thought we were debating a possible solution.

Let me try to nuance it a bit.

 first I think we need to be selective in who we can let in for a while so we can solve the problems we all ready have with less strain on them. it is a short term solution but needed for any long term solution that we can come up with i argue. 

second If north Africans are over represented in crime and terror attacks it is important to not deny it and it maybe means a culture clash that is too big, so for now we should limit this culture not by smashing up mosques but just close borders for now so our culture stays the dominant one also for future generations with all its own faults we have to work on.

You say ''we'' are robbing them well the solution to that is stop robbing them but not let them all in when u think about it that is the more humane and considerate way then let them in and then leave em to their own devices here.

We have to shelter them in the region and we should invest there because again same culture/10 times cheaper/mind you the big mostly unused air conditioned tentcamp near mekka for their pilgrimages why is it not in use?

we could help them right there and we should.

 The big problem the establishment is not doing this so we have to make bit of a statement and that is my reason for voting.

 

So would you like to say something constructive or shall we psychoanalyze my persona a bit more.

Is this not a great opportunity for self actualization by means of discussion? i'm enjoying this.

your turn. 

 

Edited April 1, 2017 by Steph1988

[h inandout]

I take 100% responsibility for living in a culture where the Colombine school shootings happened.  I now choose to open my awareness up to as many diverse perspepectives as possible on on murder suicide psychology.  And on school bullying.

I take responsibility for living in a country where the government has become so entangled with secrecy and power structures that much of the public is very skeptical about what really happened at 911.  I take responsibility for not knowing what the country I live in had or had not been doing to deprive other cultures of lifes necesities and respect.  I vow to hear brothers and sisters from many cultures speak their truth on this.  I vow to listen to as many fresh perspectives on the subject as possible.

I take responsibility for my perspective and vow to share it, and I also vow to grow my perspective.  I also vow to stand confidently in my growing perspective when it comes time to making decisions.  I also will not be afraid to change my mind occasionally, and to really consider how it is that I am interpreting my sources of information, and how it is that I am spreading information myself.

[Steph1988]

@MissMiki hear hear!

 

[Flare]

21 hours ago, Steph1988 said:

So its all about me

No, you make the same assumption again. That I called you a racist or accused you of bullying, neither of them was true. Stop it please.

On 1.4.2017 at 1:56 PM, Flare said:

So you actually avoiding the part about your own behavior, my arguments about the topic [...]

Yes all about you here. I'm so sorry, I just wanna crucify you. 

21 hours ago, Steph1988 said:

mentioned carefully some stuff about Hitler,in your PM you refer to my "right wing extremist friends''

Where are we? I mentioned the following: In Germany a high amount of right wings are in a line with most what a nazi would say. Period. Google one of the leaders from the german right wing and what he is saying, his party makes around 1/3 of our right wing. If you can't get the metonymy im sorry for you "my friend". But still, the dutch right wing united with the german one, clearly tolerating these tendencies. Let me tell you what, closing your eyes and just saying: I voted because I want to protest, because I want borders and I completely forgot about these things is madness. By tolerating such ideologies you are actually supporting them. That doesn't make you a racist, but you supporting racists. Maybe something to think about. If you want I can surely sent you some great quotes from some of the most influential right wing guys here, which are real friends with the dutch right wing. 

21 hours ago, Steph1988 said:

So i have to put a thousand disclaimers on my posts from here on so u know i have nothing to do with the extreme right wing? 

Yes, you voted for them, I already mentioned that tolerating ideologies that are willing to do serious harm to others is supporting them. You can actually find an analogy to bullying here if you want. Therefore your actions say a), your comments say b) - well I guess everybody know whats speaks louder. 

21 hours ago, Steph1988 said:

well i tell you what are not lies in any case 

- The metro attack on london  

- The metro attack in Spain

- The attack on the german Christmas market 

- The attack on the jewish school in toulouse 

- The attack in nice

- The recent attack in london

- The attack in Brussels 

- the assasinations on Theo van Gogh and Pim Fortuin here in my own country

- Charlie hebdo

Pure whataboutism, one of the cheapest, but clearly most manipulative strategies to intrigue peoples minds. So sad you have to use this. Let me tell you something, the same day Charlie hebdo happened, the Boko Haram killed 2000 people in Nigeria. Where did you mentioned this? Isn't this important? I'm not saying one life is worth than another, but the problem here is that you are saying exactly this; you are communicating that a human being in your(/neighbor) country is worth more. You are telling me on which people's death I should look at. You are telling me which one is the catastrophe. That pure egotistical behavior. You are only concerned about these dead people, because you get a feeling that it could be you. You are only afraid, because it's nearer than all these other people suffering in the world. You claim to decide which human i worth what. That's really inappropriate - period.

Let me ask you a question here: How would you feel if you had to leave your house right now, because there are bombs raining on your city, get in a fucking boat, leave your family behind, risk your life to get away from the war and be forced to flee in a unknown land. Now in this country there are lots of people trying to get you out again, telling you you should die in your own country. Crucifying you and accusing you of being exactly part of a group you just flee from, which is causing the war at home. How good would you feel? Or trying to judge you based on the behavior of your bad neighbor, who already stole stuff in Syria but now is highly overlooked since people want to find causes to make you and your people look like "scum". I hope you will never have to experience such a story. Maybe practice some serious empathy. Doesn't mean that the behavior isn't bad and he shouldn't be hold accountable for that though. 

 

21 hours ago, Steph1988 said:

and on and on and on

No not "and on and on and on", you told us what is true for sure and know you don't know but still are not willing to say that clearly. But you still wanna communicate more whataboutism and make a case where there is even more... Stop these cheap tactics.

21 hours ago, Steph1988 said:

And you are sorry for everyone? Oh how nice u speak for the whole forum.

I am sorry for everyone, mean in my limited ability to articulate myself in english: I apologize to making such a high amount of OT posts. If you try to use that against me, we all know how good your arguments actually are.

21 hours ago, Steph1988 said:

If u read my original posts carefully u can see that there is no real dubious stuff there and i asked you what are your better solutions? maybe you are right, maybe my modest proposals were somehow not right well then point it out.

I thought we were debating a possible solution.

You are still fighting the symptom not the disease. Refugees are not the problem, what is causing is the problem. That's mostly an economy/Gauß problem. But that's a different thread, or do you see the title how to solve refugee crisis / better our economy system? No it's not, that why I did put my emphasis on your voting behavior/voting in general.

21 hours ago, Steph1988 said:

so our culture stays the dominant one

What a statement. If you have to use massive force to cling to something, chances are high that it actually rather has to change than to be defended till death. You have problem here, you still think of culture as a fragile system to be defended. Guess what it's not. Study the history of the Libanon and Syria; nationalists destroyed this once so beautifully land living in complete harmony, the made did manage to turn a antifragile land into 2 fragile countries. In a time where you are living in a world with so many factors creating high variances do you really want to be more fragile? 

You other "solutions" are really shortcuts not mentioning the complex problems you'd have to face. This topic is way to big to be discussed in a thread about democracy. 

21 hours ago, Steph1988 said:

The big problem the establishment is not doing this so we have to make bit of a statement and that is my reason for voting.

Disclosure: I'm not saying you are doing exactly the same. 

But, guess what people said after 1933? Are they not to blame? Can you just vote for straight shit, just because you wanna change something? Even if it's not in line with your values and you have to use massive rationalizing to justify it? 

21 hours ago, Steph1988 said:

Is this not a great opportunity for self actualization by means of discussion?

If you would use less whataboutism, maybe it would.

I was really concerned about this answer, because I wasn't sure my ego is pushing me to answer you. I at least hope you can change some of your perspectives.

Edited April 2, 2017 by Flare

[Steph1988]

@Flare Well thank you for the slightly less hysterical reaction this time.

On 2-4-2017 at 4:15 PM, Flare said:

No, you make the same assumption again. That I called you a racist or accused you of bullying, neither of them was true. Stop it please.

I did not say that you literately said that but you talk way to much about Nazi´s and i feel so far removed from that. It also fits our politically correct landscape these days where if you try to mention that bringing millions of people from a different culture in Europe might not be such a good idea u get completely slandered. It is absurd and it kills debate.

 

On 2-4-2017 at 4:15 PM, Flare said:

here are we? I mentioned the following: In Germany a high amount of right wings are in a line with most what a nazi would say. Period. Google one of the leaders from the german right wing and what he is saying, his party makes around 1/3 of our right wing. If you can't get the metonymy im sorry for you "my friend". But still, the dutch right wing united with the german one, clearly tolerating these tendencies. Let me tell you what, closing your eyes and just saying: I voted because I want to protest, because I want borders and I completely forgot about these things is madness. By tolerating such ideologies you are actually supporting them. That doesn't make you a racist, but you supporting racists. Maybe something to think about. If you want I can surely sent you some great quotes from some of the most influential right wing guys here, which are real friends with the dutch right wing. 

First of all I never heard any remotely racist thing from any right wing politician in the Netherlands and all say they distance themselves from Nazi´s. 

The way some of them try to discuss Islam is tasteless indeed but if you try to go immerse yourself a bit in the Islam you discover that it is not a religion of piece, look up Mohammed, look up the sharia, look up what happens in Muslim country´s it is perfectly reasonable to say that maybe we should have less of that and maybe it is a little backwards.

Why can we not discuss the content of this religion without being called an islamophobe. We don''t have to have respect for every religion or ideology, do you have respect for Scientology? if you do you are an idiot and a religion with 1,6 billion supporters and being the fastest growing one it should be under close scrutiny.

But i don't even think the Muslims are most of the problem actually, the weak establishment is and if they keep looking away things get worse. 

 

On 2-4-2017 at 4:15 PM, Flare said:

Pure whataboutism,

Your whole argument is full with this, you break your own rules.

I am actually fine with it to make a list so that you can see that there maybe is a problem but apparently the list was to short to convince you i guess. 

But you again you break your own rules, i come up with examples and then you ignore it and you go like,

1. well what about right wing extremists smashing up asylum centers

2. well what about boko haram killing 2000 people 

3. what about 1933

so let me go though those,

1. They should be punished of course no doubt about it that is absolutely horrible.

2. question for you. are you the type of person who would twitter right after an attack as first thing on your mind ''i hope the right wing does not abuse this''? i almost don't dare to go there but you make me.

What about this, we cannot stop all genocide in the world right away, we cannot take on all the horrible things going on at once, we have to start at least with home and our neighbors with a short term solution but a possible solution nonetheless.

It is almost yes almost as if you are saying that there is so much filth going on in the world that to even it out we can take some as well. just roll over and suck it up. after all humanity is all one and as Carl Sagan said ''we are all made of star stuff'' so why not take one for the team. 

On 2-4-2017 at 4:15 PM, Flare said:

you are communicating that a human being in your(/neighbor) country is worth more

By trying to prevent terror attacks in Europe we would be selfish somehow? are you insane? again we cannot take on every world problem. Would you order 1 fireman to rescue a burning city? where is your logic.

3. The ground for a new Hitler doesn't seem ripe to me, in that example Germany came out of a terrible first world war with countless bitter veterans followed up by massive unemployment and mass inflation.

But that is why it is important to take on the problems right now so the real right wing extremists will never get an excuse.

On 2-4-2017 at 4:15 PM, Flare said:

You are still fighting the symptom not the disease

 So you are actually completely right on that one, i agree i fight the symptom, but that does not have to exclude any long term solutions? we can do them both right? If u get a hart attack it might be because you eat unhealthy,are stressed etc but what needs to happen first is reanimation what does not solve the root cause but without it you die.

unfortunately this is where it gets to complicated. Africa's population is expanding rapidly and i have no idea why they insist on making baby's while there is not enough food around. So we have to look into that i'm very interested. and all these crises can have a million causes but that is another topic.

On 2-4-2017 at 4:15 PM, Flare said:

Maybe practice some serious empathy

 

Your empathy is without a plan and to me that is useless in this situation. We Cannot get them all here we have to Help them THERE and that is possible. But seems you want them all in? i'm not sure well that is gonna be disastrous because of the reasons i have stated already.

I don't know what empathy is to you maybe sit around a campfire and sing songs for the refugee's while holding hands. or a minute of silence for every victim.  

Now to get truly cynical, did it ever cross your mind that the reasons country's take in so many refugee's might not be out of only empathy but there might be darker reasons such as egoistic virtue signalling in a competition between country's for the favor of their Brussels overlords who can take the most and then rucksightloss silencing any complaints. one of the most suspicious things might be that our government refuses to calculate the cost of the mass immigration because that would be discrimination of course. Or is it just handy to calculate otherwise it could be used against you in a debate. This should arouse at least some suspicion  

To me empathy is about action that actually has a thought out plan behind it while accepting that you cannot solve all the world's problems immediately all tough you work on them massively behind the scenes. 

 

All taken into consideration i do not think we will ever agree i guess the original point was my supposedly lack of integrity well i hope that despite our disagreements you can read where at least i am coming from and that there is logic to my arguments.

On 2-4-2017 at 4:15 PM, Flare said:

I at least hope you can change some of your perspectives.

I am afraid you have strengthened them because i did not see enough logic you make the same mistakes as everyone i had discussions with about the topic and i ultimately don't know what it is that you want. 

Still thank you for the discussion i found it interesting because you are coming to this from such a different view, we are completely different thinkers that is clear to me so at least i have gotten something out of it.

I also want to add that actually we stayed on topic i think because as u can see no matter how much you don't like what i say i took the trouble to immerse myself for a while and then voted so to answer to the original topic i say yes you could vote but think about it very carefully and don't vote out of principle but be more deliberate about it.  

piece.

 

Edited April 4, 2017 by Steph1988

[Flare]

2 hours ago, Steph1988 said:

I did not say that you literately said that but you talk way to much about Nazi´s and i feel so far removed from that. It also fits our politically correct landscape these days where if you try to mention that bringing millions of people from a different culture in Europe might not be such a good idea u get completely slandered. It is absurd and it kills debate.

Then stop making the case up. You are creating it yourself. Self fulfilling prophecy, cheers.

2 hours ago, Steph1988 said:

The way some of them try to discuss Islam is tasteless indeed but if you try to go immerse yourself a bit in the Islam you discover that it is not a religion of piece, look up Mohammed, look up the sharia, look up what happens in Muslim country´s it is perfectly reasonable to say that maybe we should have less of that and maybe it is a little backwards.

What an pointless argument. Look up Crusaders. Let's ban the Vatikan. Let's ban Christianity. Logic....

Sharia is a not the islam. Actually the Sharia is not even in line with the Koran. Stop taking the Koran literally in any case, yes it has some dark chapters that are being abused. No reason to judge a whole religion, calling it backwards. A religion is a system of heuristics. It's the people who use/abuse them. Stop being so backwards. Thanks. 

2 hours ago, Steph1988 said:

By trying to prevent terror attacks in Europe we would be selfish somehow? are you insane? again we cannot take on every world problem. Would you order 1 fireman to rescue a burning city? where is your logic.

3. The ground for a new Hitler doesn't seem ripe to me, in that example Germany came out of a terrible first world war with countless bitter veterans followed up by massive unemployment and mass inflation.

But that is why it is important to take on the problems right now so the real right wing extremists will never get an excuse.

Straw man argument. Stop being polemic without arguments backing it up. It just exposes your ego. No we cannot take on every world problem, but your fear is still showing your narrow minded thoughts about these problems. Exactly because we can not solve every problem we should solve and care about the problems where we would have the most impact. That's not by discussing about refugees all year long.  Visualization  for you. 

The part about german history seems to be highly biased and is definitely not in line with some of the newest discoveries in this field. Still sound like some marxist/hegelian rationalizing of history. Maybe relook that. 

You don't have to vote for the right wing which is a home for extremists, in order to solve the problem. Or since when is this guy a right wing, just like Wilders is? 

Btw, just to crush your illusion: You know what dialectic is? The rightwing, "the movement" and the absurd high presence in the media is a huge argument for young peaceful, but mostly poor, islamic people to become extremists. You give them all the arguments: fight against the wester culture, they don't want us, but have forsaken and betrayed us long ago. What do you think would the PR from radical islamist would be made of if not about exactly the movement you are giving your vote to? The right wing is actually the best thing that could have happened for them. Destroy the society. Well, the amount of hate is definitely going up and up and up. We are causing even more harm to us. You most likely don't prevent terror attacks by building walls (you can still fly in from Saudi Arabia, upsi) but by taking away motivation and arguments for such behavior. Maybe take a look at this short video. This might give you a glimpse of what the problem really is. Stop being so superficial please and really get into the problem. Or be proud to just be a plebs who is following their cult leader. 

2 hours ago, Steph1988 said:

Your whole argument is full with this, you break your own rules.

No I'm showing the other side of the coin, since you already are showing one. If I have to paraphrase in addition to quote you in order you can understand that, I'm sorry. I'm going to so now. So you said I am breaking my own rules, didn't you? 

Btw, mirroring is a good discussion tactic to show you your own flaws. But okay I see, you need to make a point here. Did I get that right? Or not? Please help me paraphrasing. 

2 hours ago, Steph1988 said:

question for you. are you the type of person who would twitter right after an attack as first thing on your mind ''i hope the right wing does not abuse this''? i almost don't dare to go there but you make me.

No, the right wing is doing this. I don't have twitter and I'm not going to react to such cruel behavior. If terrorist are going to get me mad, they won even more and take a huge amount of times out of our lives, which is actually killing even more people in theory. But just to remind you, the right wing twittered 20 minutes after "Berlin": "These are Merkels dead" - well, the party who you are voting for is doing the exact same thing. Twittering and confusing people before it was even clear what a) exactly happened and b) if it was a terror attack or not. They actually had an PR-campaign planned in Germany based on a terror attack they anticipated, which never happened. But they wanted to be prepared. Absuing dead people is making me sick. On both side, the left isn't better their. But the right wing is living of terror attacks. They feed from them. it's disgusting. 

2 hours ago, Steph1988 said:

So you are actually completely right on that one, i agree i fight the symptom, but that does not have to exclude any long term solutions? we can do them both right? If u get a hart attack it might be because you eat unhealthy,are stressed etc but what needs to happen first is reanimation what does not solve the root cause but without it you die.

unfortunately this is where it gets to complicated. Africa's population is expanding rapidly and i have no idea why they insist on making baby's while there is not enough food around. So we have to look into that i'm very interested. and all these crises can have a million causes but that is another topic.

So you are telling me you don't know the simplest theories about populations, but are thinking about yourself you are able to judge what is right in the refugee crisis? Congrats. Literally everybody that spent more then 5 minutes on this topic knows why the population is expanding. Just for you, since these are really poor people: they need children in order to be able to live longer than maybe 50 years. Why? They don't get a pension most of us are taking for granted. Their kids are their pension. Poverty is causing that, not enough food is the exact reason. In addition they are not educated or their church (hello christianity is on it again) is preventing them from using birth preventions. Upsi. Just to name 2 of the most popular reasons. 

Borders are not a long term solution, borders are actually the most fragile thing you can do. I already named you an example in my post before. And yes it's not just that, there is theoretical evidence behind it. 

3 hours ago, Steph1988 said:

Your empathy is without a plan and to me that is useless in this situation

I told you, that discussing the flaws in our Gauß made up world, fractals, history theory at large and the economy is not my plan here. That doesn't mean I have to ideas or that there are common good ideas out there, I'm not a saint either. But as you let me get a glimpse of that, since you have some information lacks, this might be not the right discussion for you. Which it doesn't have to be to be completely honest here. No one should be forced to learn about economy, fractals and so on. I don't like that topic at heart too. 

3 hours ago, Steph1988 said:

We Cannot get them all here

No one said that and we are not doing that. We are just taking a small percentage, please watch the video mentioned above. 

 

3 hours ago, Steph1988 said:

I don't know what empathy is to you maybe sit around a campfire and sing songs for the refugee's while holding hands. or a minute of silence for every victim.  

You want a pig fight. I won't take it. "Never wrestle with pigs, you both get dirty and the pig likes it" - Bernard, my friend. 

3 hours ago, Steph1988 said:

Now to get truly cynical, did it ever cross your mind that the reasons country's take in so many refugee's might not be out of only empathy but there might be darker reasons such as egoistic virtue signalling in a competition between country's for the favor of their Brussels overlords who can take the most and then rucksightloss silencing any complaints. one of the most suspicious things might be that our government refuses to calculate the cost of the mass immigration because that would be discrimination of course. Or is it just handy to calculate otherwise it could be used against you in a debate. This should arouse at least some suspicion

Bravo, you found that empathy can be ego driven. Do you gave the same amount of thought onto yourself, why you are voting?  If I gift some stranger 10 dollars, in order for him to buy food, but I only do it because I feel better after it, is it bad then? No it's a win win. 

In addition have you seen my Reptiloid? He just look like Clinton, he ran away from fore, 1 1/2 years ago. Please help. Massage me if you found him. Maybe he looks like Wilders now, I'm not sure. 

3 hours ago, Steph1988 said:

there is logic to my arguments.

No, there is misinformation.

3 hours ago, Steph1988 said:

I am afraid you have strengthened them because i did not see enough logic you make the same mistakes as everyone i had discussions with about the topic and i ultimately don't know what it is that you want. 

 

Look up deconstruction, by Derrida. Might be a little confusing for you. Good luck understanding it, that's really tough philosophy. But eventually you will understand. 

I can tell you what I want: In order for you or anyone else to judge, inform yourself on a reasonable level. Second think for yourself, don't follow and paradigm. Third stop listening to dumb leaders manipulating by catching you with fears, inflicting them on you and then make you act on them. 4th keep you integrity. If you could do this, I would be pleased. 

3 hours ago, Steph1988 said:

different thinkers

Socrates called, he want's his thinker guru back. 

Man you are still identifying with your opinion. That is poison. Pure poison, most likely to yourself. In the first place vote for whatever you want, but please get that fixed.

3 hours ago, Steph1988 said:

think about it very carefully

This. 

best wishes

[Steph1988]

@Flare Ok way too many assumptions about me so i think i close it off as i will never be able to make you see that i say reasonable things.

1 hour ago, Flare said:

Man you are still identifying with your opinion. That is poison. Pure poison, most likely to yourself. In the first place vote for whatever you want, but please get that fixed.

Aaah...... you have no idea really.

I read your last post completely i assure you and i just don't get your reasoning and too be honest i don't think you even try to understand.

So to conclude i stand by my posts for a full 200% as i think i have dealt with any argument you came up with already so to do more is pointless.

Let history do its thing w'll see who gets the closest to the truth.

[Spiral]

@Steph1988 @Flare Guys.... Don't fight about this, there is no point, neither of you is going to change your mind anyway.

 

[Harikrishnan]

I will defenitely go to vote. So that people wont elect a guy who would send self actualization guys to Gas chamber ?