Epistemology of psychedelic experiences

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, Vibes said:

Do you mean you become conscious that you imagine electrons flowing? In the same way that I became conscious that I was inventing my neighbor inside my mind?

I mean that you become so conscious that you realize that the lights in your house are powered by goblins running in hamster wheels.

It's whatever you want it to be. Goblins, electrons, whatever you want!

Edited October 26, 2022 by Leo Gura

[How to be wise]

15 hours ago, Vibes said:

@Leo Gura Isn't "electrons flowing" just a thought? 

A thought is real, as a thought not as the content, isn't?

Yes, ‘electrons flowing’ is just a thought. It becomes consciousness when (and only when) you actually see it, which no one ever has. 

[Meliodas]

On 10/26/2022 at 0:01 PM, Leo Gura said:

You see the trick here? How would you know since you can only know in retrospect. So if you're wise you have to assume the worst case scenario, not the best case. The worst case is that you invest 40 years into Buddhist practice and never reach the highest destination. So all of my work is trying to avoid that possibility. If you don't take this possibility seriously then you aren't really understanding the situation. I've yet to meet a Buddhist who takes this possibility seriously. Which to me is a huge red flag.

Even if we were to do that and consider the worst case in all teachings , then i dont think there will ever be a good enough teachings . With the buddhist teaching you could invest 40 years and still not reach the ultimate destination , its still not that bad from normal human perspective .

Maybe you have reached the highest state because of your genetics or spawn count or something and you have the privilege to say that a buddhist practice will maybe not take us to the highest state . But i think the worst case with psychedelics and your teachings could be more dangerous , it could scar people for lives if they have bad trips or if they dont reach your levels at all and end up becoming some demented freaks......

[Dorje Chang]

Back to the main topic, I also wanted to comment that I don't always follow when people say something of the kind "In my trip I became directly conscious of X, therefore X is true". 

I'm all for learning from direct experience, but:

(i) Why elevate one rare state of consciousness over others and declare it to be the one where the truth lies? It should work both ways. Once the trip was over, you became "directly conscious" that you're a human living a normal life in a physical universe. But then you don't accept that. 

(ii) Claims based on special states inevitably imply the possibility that someone can have completely deluded view of reality, namely their state before any awakening. Therefore, you have to consider the possibility that the special state is also delusional. 

In my view, only permanent shifts in baseline consciousness count as some sort of knowledge or awakening.

Edited October 27, 2022 by Dorje Chang

[Leo Gura]

26 minutes ago, Dorje Chang said:

In my view, only permanent shifts in baseline consciousness count as some sort of knowledge or awakening.

Yeah, well, your view is wrong.

There is such a thing as Absolute Consciousness, and you can access it. Stop speculating from your armchair and do. This work requires doing, not speculating. No amount of logic will help you here and no one is going to prove anything to you.

Edited October 27, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Dorje Chang]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

There is such a thing as Absolute Consciousness, and you can access it. Stop speculating from your armchair and do. This work requires doing, not speculating. No amount of logic will help you here and no one is going to prove anything to you.

I do the work, don't worry. However, I take the risk of self-deception in spiritual work seriously to avoid wasting time.  This is why some sort of epistemology is important. Where you are at, it may be different. 

Edited October 27, 2022 by Dorje Chang

[thepixelmonk]

5 hours ago, Dorje Chang said:

However, I take the risk of self-deception in spiritual work seriously to avoid wasting time. 

Is this actually what's happening though? Or is your ego just controlling your skepticism to avoid doing the work. Psychedelic trips and experiences don't come with a high cost in terms of raw time and energy. The trip itself is only a few hours and due to tolerance in order to get the most out of your trips you can only do so a handful of times per year. Don't let your skepticism go too far when the cost of exploration is so little.

Edited October 27, 2022 by thepixelmonk

[Leo Gura]

12 hours ago, Dorje Chang said:

I do the work, don't worry. However, I take the risk of self-deception in spiritual work seriously to avoid wasting time.  This is why some sort of epistemology is important. Where you are at, it may be different. 

Take seriously that your skepticism is self-deception.

[Dorje Chang]

12 hours ago, thepixelmonk said:

Is this actually what's happening though? Or is your ego just controlling your skepticism to avoid doing the work. 

I totally agree with you, skepticism can get in the way.  As I emphasized at the beginning, I'm asking these questions to try to understand Leo's perspective and just because he talks a lot about epistemology, self-deception, and questioning everything. I'm not asking for "proof". 

This has more to do with integration than deciding whether or not to do the work.  Like many people here I've had my share of mystical experiences on psychedelics, but never felt that these experiences warranted metaphysical conclusions. I'm open to that changing in the future. 

A final point: the optimal amount of skepticism is not zero.  If that were the case, I'd be stuck on Transcendental Meditation hoping to become a flying yogi (or whatever) one day simply because it was the first spiritual practice I came across. 

Spiritual people (not necessarily anyone here) often do not understand the difference between seeing beyond logic and abandoning logic. If you abandon rationality as opposed to seeing beyond it, you'll get stuck going sideways in delusion. Classic New Age mistake. 

Edited October 28, 2022 by Dorje Chang

[Dorje Chang]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Take seriously that your skepticism is self-deception.

I'll take that on board, thanks.