Based on Oct 23 Blog post... where to move from here?

[Water by the River]

25 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

I’m reading a book on the heart of Buddha’s teachings. So far it seems the central teaching of the Buddha how more to do with life, suffering and living well. 

I agree with Leos comment that this part of Buddhism is not God Realization. Its the basic teaching from the first turning of the wheel. Ken Wilber also clearly says that insight into Ultimate Reality didn't occur at that stage of Buddhism, it was a insight and experience of the causal stage (Godhead, pure consciousness, but not world/apppearance arising within that), not Nondual Realization of Ultimate Reality. (And experience of Nonduality is not automatically realization of Ultimate Reality). 

The realization of Ultimate Reality (the imagination or manifestation part) occured later, at Nagarjuna, and the second turning of the wheel, and was only clearly formulated philosophically with the third turning, the Yogachara or Mind-Only school.

If you want some really iconoclastic thoughts, read that the founder of Jainism has practically the same story/hagiography as Buddha, as explained in Mike Crowley in "Secret Drugs of Buddhism: Psychedelic Sacraments and the Origins of the Vajrayana", and draw your own conclusions concerning the historic Buddha. So who knows who had which realization back then... Looking at the literature these systems produced, one can make educated guesses.

A quote from Ken Wilbers "Integral Buddhism":

"The idea is that Buddhadharma (Buddhist Truth) has itself already undergone three (or four) major evolutionary Turnings in its own Teachings, according to Buddhism itself. The First Turning began with the original, historical Gautama Buddha himself, and is preserved to this day in teachings such as the Theravada.

The Second Turning was introduced by the genius Nagarjuna, around 200 CE, with his revolutionary notion of shunyata, or the radical Emptiness or “unqualifiability” of ultimate Reality (which could be said neither to be, nor not to be, nor both, norneither—the idea being to clear the mind of any and all concepts about Reality so that Reality in itself could be directly experienced), a notion that became the foundation of virtually every Mahayana (“Greater Vehicle”) and Vajrayana (“Diamond Vehicle”) teaching henceforth.

The Third Turning occurred with the half brothers Asanga and Vasubandhu, and is generally called the Yogachara school, sometimes referred to as the “Mind-Only” school (which agreed with Nagarjuna that ultimate Reality was Emptiness, but so was ultimate Mind). This teaching became a central foundation of the great Tantra and Vajrayana (Diamond Path) teachings, which particularly flourished in such places as the extraordinary Nalanda University in India from the 8th to the 11th century CE, and continued unabated in Tibetan Buddhist schools—and, indeed, many Buddhists consider Tantra and Vajrayana to be a “Fourth Turning of the Wheel.”

Also in Ken Wilbers model the realization of Ultimate Reality started first with the second turning of the wheel (Nagarjuna), which was not descriptive at all but pure neti-neti, pure emptiness, pure not this - not that.

The Yogachara-School, or "Mind-Only" school, changed that. To quote Leo from a previous video "Reality is a giant Mind". The Yogachara-School is very in line with that. "This teaching became a central foundation of the great Tantra and Vajrayana (Diamond Path" (see above). Also Mahamudra and Dzogchen evolved out of that. The Yogachara-School (or the lines influenced from it most) today is not Theravada, it is not Zen. Parts of it survived for example in Tibetan Buddhism. In my view and experience there are the most sophisticated meditation systems of the planet, see the writings of Daniel Brown. He practically translated all of the secret Tantric Hermit Yoga Stuff. For the most efficient meditation system on the planet (at least in my view), see his Mahamudra-Book "Pointing out the great Way", and his subsequent Dzogchen-Books, where he translated for the first time with permission from Menri Trizin all the secret stuff.

The Yogachara-School, or "Mind-Only" school, is most in line with Leos view, as far as see it. The Tibetan Traditions, like for example Dzogchen and Mahamudra, continued to evolve, and that is why we can read something like the Supreme Source, see my first reply in this threat, coming from these traditions. In my view, much of the Supreme Source is also in line with most of Leos perspective and his experiences and realizations. So when it comes to looking for God-Realization in Buddhism, maybe in these schools one can find the most. But even then, one has to read between the lines.

But Buddhism then in some traditions developed backwards, lost its sophistication, as here very clearly (and surprisingly harshly) said by Ken Wilber on Zen for example:

" But there were, nevertheless, still more unfoldings to occur. Particularly by the 4th century CE, the question had become insistent: granted that the Absolute cannot be categorized literally in dualistic terms and concepts, is there really nothing whatsoever that could be said about it at all? 

At least in the realm of conventional truth, couldn’t more systems, maps, models, and at least metaphors be offered about Reality and how to realize it? Already, in such brilliant treatises as the Lankavatara Sutra, the answer was a resounding yes.

The Lankavatara Sutra was so important it was passed down to their successors by all 5 of the first Chan (or Zen) Head-Founders in China, as containing the essence of the Buddha’s teachings. In fact, the early Chan school was often referred to as the Lankavatara school, and a history of this early period is entitled Records of the Lankavatara Masters. (Starting with the 6th Head-Founder, Hui Neng, the Diamond Sutra—a treatise solely devoted to pure Emptiness—displaced the Lankavatara, and in many ways Zen lost the philosophical and psychological sophistication of the Lankavatara system and focused almost exclusively on nonconceptual Awareness. Zen Masters were often depicted tearing up sutras, which really amounted to a rejection of the 2 Truths doctrine. This was unfortunate, in my opinion, because in doing so, Zen became less than a complete system, refusing to elaborate conventional maps and models. Zen became weak in relative truths, although it brilliantly succeeded in elaborating and practicing ultimate Truth."

So what do we have today when it comes to Buddhism?

• Theravada, which is a successor school of the schools of the first turning of the wheel, see above. Didn't really participate in the second and third turnings, which explains why its philosophy doesnt really reflect the sophistications of these systems. Here I agree with Leo. Still the meditation methods of these systems work for some if you do them long enough.
• Zen, see the comment of Wilber above.
• Tibetan Buddhism: They have in my opinion the most sophisticated meditation techniques, because they continued developing new methods, and contain the Yogachara Mind-Only perspective. The wording is of course not contemporary, one has to overlook a lot of "medieval" stuff, for example the cosmology of Tantra and so on. But even that can be understood and be put into perspective with something like the Supreme Array Sutra, Osto: https://psychedelicsangha.org/paisley-gate/2019/5/8/the-supreme-array-scripture-a-psychedelic-stra-for-buddhist-psychonauts-pp3zz

The above overview is for sure not complete.

So not all schools/systems of Buddhism have the same level of development, sophistication and efficiacy concerning meditation-methods and views on reality. Personally, I feel that some compassion with some of the traditions criticized in the text above helps me to keep a benevolent feeling towards them. But it should also be clear what the limits of the system are, and how efficient each is, and how good its view is. Ken Wilbers comment on Zen (above) was helpful for me, because I had the same feelings when I compared for example Zen and its anti-intellectualism (which also has its place in the right context) with Mahamudra/Dzogchen.

I believe in our lifetime we will start to see which systems "score" in producing realized ones, and which only get lucky in collecting genetically/karmically privileged ones for their own tradition. The efficiacy of a system is getting not only the the karmically/genetically superstars to the finish-line, but normal talented ones also. The Ramanas and Anandamayi Ma of this world always get to the finish line. The real challenge is getting normally talented ones to realize their true nature.

 

[Kuba Powiertowski]

@Inliytened1 I assume You are honest, speaking from Your Heart and staying with the Truth. Thank You. Sat Nam?

[Leo Gura]

43 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

You talkin ta me?

I'm talkin' to everyone on this forum who thinks they know what God is.

I'm tellin' ya, ya don't.

I know this kinda talk is aggravating. But I wouldn't say it if it didn't need to be said. It's for your own good.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Breakingthewall]

6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I'm talkin' to everyone on this forum who thinks they know what God is.

I'm tellin' ya, ya don't.

I know this kinda talk is aggravating. But I wouldn't say it if it didn't need to be said. It's for your own good.

I just watched your video about God Realization a while ago. Indeed, I have not had such an awakening, to see how I am creating reality right now, my memory, my psyche etc. whenever I have done 5 meo and it has sent me to infinity, it has been a moment. my human attachment is still strong, although every day less, very quickly it grabs me. but if I have realized many times the infinity and I have become completely infinite. that infinity has stayed with me, it has changed my psyche. I don't know things, like I'm forming my hand and stuff, but I don't see that it's crucial to know that either. I think knowing is from the ego. once you have become infinite, you know that one thing is the same as another thing. It doesn't matter if you are a god, if you have created your parents, if there is only one pov or more, if there is reincarnation....all that is ego, the only thing that matters is being able to detach yourself from the human in order to be infinite. knowing things is attachment. it is ego. what is it for? if it is infinity. Maybe to know those things could help to the total freedom, in that case, welcome 

[Leo Gura]

9 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

I just watched your video about God Realization a while ago.

I've had such deep God-Realization since that video. OMG. You cannot even begin to imagine.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Holykael]

29 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I've had such deep God-Realization since that video. OMG. You cannot even begin to imagine.

The madness of consciousness knows no bounds. I'll keep imagining Leo having all sorts of god realizations but me the actual only POV in existence having none of them. All according to divine will, such perfection. Such love. How can this be perfection. I guess if I was god realized the world would end so I can never be god realized until my destined death and Im doomed to suffer in normie consciousness hallucinating other people having god realizations when they can't even really feel it.

The very continued existence of this universe is contingent on me never reaching god mode. Doomed to fail because for god upholding this shitty reality is more important.

And with that actualized org becomes just a fiction, a story. You aren't leading anyone to god realizations nor are you having them yourself. You are being imagined for no purpose or reason than entertainment at best. How sad god's reality is.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Holykael

[Leo Gura]

@Holykael Brother, you just love playing Eeyore.

 

Edited October 26, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Holykael]

10 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Holykael Brother, you just love playing Eeyore.

 

God loves it. I hate it. God is so intelligent yet so dumb wasting any time whatsoever in suffering. Why is god so obsessed with suffering. It's an absolute obsession, the world is an ocean of suffering.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Holykael

[amanen]

17 minutes ago, Holykael said:

God loves it. I hate it. God is so intelligent yet so dumb wasting any time whatsoever in suffering. Why is god so obsessed with suffering. It's an absolute obsession, the world is an ocean of suffering.

Maybe God had ten thousand absolutely wonderful dreams unimaginably blissful to humans before this and then decided for once to feel that things were not perfect, all the while complaining constantly through it saying there is nothing but suffering.

[Holykael]

2 minutes ago, amanen said:

Maybe God had ten thousand absolutely wonderful dreams unimaginably blissful to humans before this and then decided for once to feel that things were not perfect, all the while complaining constantly through it saying there is nothing but suffering.

I find that hard to believe, given that there is no bias against suffering and no matter how you slice it, that's a pretty retarded dream to want to have. And the worst part of it is there is an infinity of dreams far worse than the one I'm in and god doesn't discriminate between dreams. How can it be all good to go through hell time and time again. God is a mistake. God should not exist. Nothing should have ever existed.

[amanen]

13 minutes ago, Holykael said:

I find that hard to believe, given that there is no bias against suffering and no matter how you slice it, that's a pretty retarded dream to want to have. And the worst part of it is there is an infinity of dreams far worse than the one I'm in and god doesn't discriminate between dreams. How can it be all good to go through hell time and time again. God is a mistake. God should not exist. Nothing should have ever existed.

Well first of all suffering isn't even unintelligent in the first place, it is purely a survival function, it isn't there for no reason, it's there to tell you something is wrong. Also there are infinitely many ways to create dreams that don't need survival as a mechanic because they function differently than this particular one, which means that out of all the infinite possibilities survival has no reason to take up most of it, which means no suffering in most of them. Well, as everything is infinite you can't really say stuff like most of them though, with infinite time of course even all the suffering will be repeated infinitely many times, but the proportion is definitely not going to be mostly just suffering.

Also God can dream whatever it desires, it doesn't have a compulsion towards making suffering because it "has to experience everything", it actually has complete freedom and can never visit suffering again if it doesn't want to in in its' dreams, though I definitely do not think God will ever never experience suffering again in any form. But as an example against "having to experience everything" God never has to experience the other imagined 'POV's in a dream it has. It's more like an infinite process that always is doing whatever it desires, whether its complete hell or absolute heaven.

Edited October 26, 2022 by amanen

[Breakingthewall]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I've had such deep God-Realization since that video. OMG. You cannot even begin to imagine.

What has been the effect of deeper awakenings in your life? translates into greater freedom? higher level of consciousness as a baseline? more happiness?

[gettoefl]

@Water by the River thanks for explaining ... i have found the following most helping in practicing all of that:

 

progressive-stages-of-meditation-on-emptiness.pdf

[Dorje Chang]

On 26/10/2022 at 8:08 AM, Water by the River said:

Despite much of Buddhism being dogmatic, and its effectiveness in producing realized ones has been low considering the total number of persons engaged in it, there are quite efficient techniques that are being brought to the West (For example Daniel Browns "Pointing out the Great Way").

I can attest to this. Daniel Brown was the only meditation teacher I ever came across that is explicit about teaching the most efficient techniques for awakening and advanced Mahamudra and Dzogchen. His stuff works. Do you know others?

Here is an example of how his teachings do not beat around the bush (nevermind the jargon): 

Quote

The Level 4 course focuses on Buddha-training using a transmission from Dudjom Lingpa's Buddhahood Without Meditation. These precious teachings focus on the exhaustion of all negative states and the flourishing of all positive states of mind, the development of the five wisdom energies, Buddha-fields, and Buddha-Bodies. 

Furthermore, he explicitly claimed that a certain number of his students achieved these states. 

Highly recommended, just noting that their retreats are expensive. 

Edited October 28, 2022 by Dorje Chang

[Forza-Spirito]

@Water by the River thank you, I have learned something from your reserch!! I can get some ideas!