Based on Oct 23 Blog post... where to move from here?

[taslimitless]

Leo's last blog post, the one listing all the things that are NOT God Realization, leave me with the question of where to turn to now. What direction to start in. My aim is to obtain the highest level of consciousness and God Realization possible. I would prefer to leave everything behind, all the practices, teachings and teachers listed and only put my time and efforts in the right direction. I don't want to waste my time. I am curious to where to go from here. 

[King Merk]

Yea idk wtf god realization is

[BipolarGrowth]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but scripting yourself that you are God before taking powerful substances at doses that reduce practical forms of thinking and logic IS God Realization? 
 

Not trying to downplay anything, but have we ever received a detailed description of what God Realization actually is beyond the obvious meaning that the name entails? I feel like there have been plenty of people to say “I’ve realized that I’m God”, and Leo’s response is basically just no.

Edited October 25, 2022 by BipolarGrowth

[Leo Gura]

What you do is question everything, especially all the spiritual group-think you've ingested along your spiritual journey. You think radically for yourself until you deconstruct all of it.

I am working on a course which will guide you in this process. Until then you're on your own. Although I also have many videos which explain it.

1 hour ago, BipolarGrowth said:

Not trying to downplay anything, but have we ever received a detailed description of what God Realization actually is beyond the obvious meaning that the name entails?

Yes, you have:

https://www.actualized.org/articles/an-advanced-explanation-of-god-realization

And I am working on a course that will explain it in much more detail.

It's difficult to articulate precisely because it is not all those other things you learn about from nondual teachers and Buddhists, who have made a mess of this whole field.

It is not trivial to distinguish God-Realization from all the other spiritual state and attainments. Which is why almost nobody reaches it. Even the idea that it can be distinguished is denied by most serious spiritual seekers and gurus.

The most serious spiritual practitioners on this forum still have no idea what God is. Despite their claims otherwise.

Edited October 25, 2022 by Leo Gura

[BipolarGrowth]

@Leo Gura glad to hear about a course running in that direction. I think one of the things some parts of Buddhism have done well is giving a strong effort to describe things as accurately as possible. With states, insights, realizations, etc. that are sufficiently complex, you can’t ever describe it 100% accurately, but in this kind of practice, even 2% accurate compared to 1% accurate could make a world of difference in steering people in the right direction. 

[Leo Gura]

Yes, Buddhism is precise in that respect. But I have not read any Buddhist description of God-Realization. And no Buddhist I talk to can properly tell me what God is.

Edited October 25, 2022 by Leo Gura

[BipolarGrowth]

@Leo Gura I realized after writing that first post that I had watched that video at least twice. It is admittedly very difficult to articulate deep realizations. I think what I might have meant was more that the deeper understanding you’ve seemed to arrive at since then has not been given in as much precision. To me, finding a way to bring more precision to descriptions is one of the best ways to augment your positive impact on this whole area of development. But I’m a bit biased since I’m the type of person to get a lot out of dense technicalities when it comes to consciousness work. 

[Leo Gura]

Yes, of course I will bring much more precision in the future. I've had to do a lot of work to make these things precise in my own mind, and I'm still not done with that.

The real precision will come in my course and future book.

What you get from me on this forum and my blog is imprecisely stuff because I'm in an active process of working it out.

My videos are more precisely, but the old they are the less precisely they are.

Edited October 25, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Jake Chambers]

He forgot one thing in that post: 

Actualized.org is not God-realization.

[BipolarGrowth]

@Leo Gura that’s honest and completely understandable. Looking forward to seeing where it goes. Best of luck ?

[Thought Art]

I don’t know 

Ive had some awakenings but… 

Solipsism, God Realization, Leo saying he doesn’t have his own consciousness, then saying there’s infinite Gods… wuts going on here

Ive had all these experiences but I still don’t really know. I’m maturing and growing a lot the last year. 

Edited October 25, 2022 by Thought Art

[Leo Gura]

9 hours ago, Jake Chambers said:

He forgot one thing in that post: 

Actualized.org is not God-realization.

It's way more than God-Realization

[Water by the River]

16 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes, Buddhism is precise in that respect. But I have not read any Buddhist description of God-Realization. And no Buddhist I talk to can properly tell me what God is.

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, The Supreme Source:

"I am the teacher, pure and total consciousness, whence everything manifests. Pure and total consciousness is the supreme source, it has created the Buddhas of the three times, from it have arisen the beings of the three worlds and the whole animate and inanimate universe. [... ]

Pure and total consciousness has created everything and has not created anything. It has created everything because it has created its own nature, pure and total. It has not created anything because within it there exists no need to create. When my nature is not understood and the phenomena that manifest from me become the object of judgement, desire and attachment give rise to the creation of concrete vision that is impermanent and destined to vanish like a magical apparition, and one becomes like a blind man who does not know what is happening. [...I"

"As I transcend all affirmations and negations, I am beyond all phenomena. As no object exists that is not myself, I am beyond meditating on a view. As there is nothing to keep apart from myself, I am beyond a commitment to observe. As there is nothing to seek other than myself, I am beyond obtaining the capacity for spiritual action. As no place exists outside myself, I am beyond a level of realization to surpass. As I have never encountered obstacles, I am beyond [everything] as self-arising wisdom. As I am the ultimate unborn nature, I am beyond [everything] as the [true] subtle ultimate nature"

"I am called "the perfect condition" becauseeverything is contained in me. I am called "the source" because the teacher, teaching, and disciples arise from my three natures"

"I am the essence of all phenomena; nothing exists that is not my essence. The teachers of the three dimensions are my essence. The Buddhas of the three times are my essence. The Bodhisattvas are my essence. The four types of yogins are my essence. The three worlds, of desire, of form, and without form, too, are my manifestation. The five great elements are my essence. The six classes of beings are my essence. Everything inanimate is my essence. Everything that lives is my essence. All the habitats and the beings living therein are my essence. Nothing exists that is not my essence because I am the universal root: there is nothing that is not contained in me. The unborn, the wonder of birth, and the manifestation of energy are the three aspects of the three teachers: this is their condition."

"As the three times, past, present, and future, abide exclusively in me, all the Buddhas are in the same condition: this too is my essence. As I transcend the dualism of subject and object, like space I am allpervading, and I constitute the fundamental substance of all phenomena: my essence is pure and total consciousness. I, that am the source, abide in the single state, and in this same authentic condition the practitioners of the "four yogas"

"Realize my nature, the supreme source that is pure and total consciousness. Teach that all the phenomena of existence are only myself! If you transmit my teaching, all your disciples will realize my nature and will become this very nature.

"If my nature were to be compassionately displayed to the beings of the three worlds who have originated from me,....  Thus I, the supreme source, disclose my nature, displaying it to myself."

"Nothing other than this exists; none of the Buddhas have ever received a higher teaching than this from me, the source. Aside from this condition of equality beyond concepts, I myself, the supreme source whence everything arises, have absolutely nothing whatever to display to myself."

"Listen! As all of you are created by me, you beings of the three worlds are my children, equal to me, the supreme source. You are me, inseparable from me, so I manifest to you and through the five teachers of my natures I teach the single state of the five essences [of the elements]. I am the single state, I, the supreme source: you too are, you must become certain of this!"

"Listen, Sattvavajra! I will show you your own nature. You are me, the source. I am and have always been pure and total consciousness. What is pure and total consciousness?"

"Among all things existing in the animate and inanimate universe, there is not one single thing that has not been created by me, nor is there a cause that does not derive from me. Thus I am the essence of all, and nothing surpasses me. I am superior to the three dimensions, to the Buddhas of the three times, to the Vidyadharas, to the Bodhisattvas, to the beings of the three worlds, to the whole animate and inanimate universe, because I am the maker of all. Before there was any other teaching I, that am the source, pure and total consciousness, disclosed the teaching of pure and total
consciousness."

Edited October 25, 2022 by Water by the River

[Leo Gura]

@Water by the River That is very good. That guy gets it.

Unfortunately such Buddhists are rarer than hen's teeth. I dare you to find one in real life who will guide you to his level of consciousness in a way you can actually follow.

What you have to keep in mind about such people is they tend to be very gifted. Which is why they are so rare. You are not going to find such a Buddhist at your local retreat.

Edited October 25, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Water by the River]

53 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Water by the River That is very good. That guy gets it.

Unfortunately such Buddhists are rarer than hen's teeth. I dare you to find one in real life who will guide you to his level of consciousness in a way you can actually follow.

What you have to keep in mind about such people is they tend to be very gifted. Which is why they are so rare. You are not going to find such a Buddhist at your local retreat.

I agree. The Quotes are from the Kunjed Gyalpo Tantra, a foundational text of Buddhist Dzogchen, ~1000 years old.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulayarāja_Tantra

So yes, you wont find this guy at a local retreat. And also Buddhism had to evolve to that point, these insights were not there in early Buddhism, but at the stage of the Kunjed Gyalpo Tantra they were.

And besides clearly defining the Ground of Being and the true nature of all beings, and how Infinite Consciousness or the Supreme Source manifests/imagines reality, they were also tripping and exploring its infinite creations, see "The Supreme Array Scripture: A Psychedelic Sutra for Buddhist Psychonauts, Douglas Osto". Of course in a medieval non-scientifiy lingo, but still fascinating.

If you read between the lines, there have been many realizers of that degree desribed in the Supreme Source/Kunjed Gyalpo Tantra in the Dzogchen and Mahamudra-Traditions. Both over the centuries, but also in our time. They tended and tend to hold back, because walking the fine line between expressing their deepest nature and not falling for spiritual pride is difficult, and expressing fully can easily be misunterstood.  

Despite much of Buddhism being dogmatic, and its effectiveness in producing realized ones has been low considering the total number of persons engaged in it, there are quite efficient techniques that are being brought to the West (For example Daniel Browns "Pointing out the Great Way").

I am convinced that they always used psychedelics (Secret Drugs of Buddhism: Psychedelic Sacraments and the Origins of the Vajrayana, Crowley). Ken Wilber for example also clearly states that people using Meditation AND psychedelics profit more than using either alone, see Video minute 3.

 

To conclude:

Osto, The Supreme Array Scripture:

"So how is the Supreme Array of use for the modern Buddhist psychonaut? First, it demonstrates how important visionary experience was for Mahāyāna Buddhism. Some modern traditions like Zen and Vipassana tend to downplay or disparage visions as at best distractions from the path, or as signs of mental imbalance. Why are visions so disparaged in these established forms of modern Buddhism? Because visionary spiritual is dangerous. It undermines the status quo of the institutionalized authority structures. If anyone can have a vision that reveals a higher order of reality, then the authority of the gurus is undermined. 

The Supreme Array also describes the correct Mahāyāna intention toward visionary experience – Sudhana’s one goal is omniscient buddhahood in order to save all beings. In other words, he has the “mind of enlightenment” (bodhicitta) and therefore his intention is pure when he enters an altered state and has visions. In this way, the Supreme Array also supplies some insight into the goal of visionary experience – visions for their own sake (the fireworks) are pointless. The goal is to gain insight into the Mahāyana Buddhist path so one can be a better bodhisattva. Moreover, the scripture provides insight into how visionary experience reveals a higher order of reality. Because of their emptiness, phenomena are dreamlike and illusory. And because all things lack inherent existence or are “empty,” everything interpenetrates and inter-reflects every other thing in the omniverse. Space and time are endless, but as the Chinese Huayan masters say, “The one contains the all, and the all contains the one.” Finally, the indescribable vastness of time and space revealed in the sūtra function to deconstruct our ordinary linear ways of viewing time and space, and expand our vision to include the entire cosmos. In this way, the personal stories of our lives are connected to the cosmic story of the bodhisattva’s journey to enlightenment."

 

[Leo Gura]

@Water by the River I like that. Very good research you've been doing.

Although I wouldn't called God-Realization a "visionary experience", but it also doesn't exclude vision.

You are correct thought that the dismissing of visionary experiences in nondual circles is deeply mistaken.

I don't consider Ken Wilber's work to be that deep though. His descriptions of God leave me very unsatisfied. Which should be a warning to you guys. If Ken Wilber cannot get it, WTF? You are in a very dangerous situation. What are you gonna do different than him?

That's my biggest lesson for you guys who are serious: What are you gonna do to avoid the traps that all these serious meditators like Ken Wilber, Shinzen Young, Daniel Ingram have fallen into?

That is the key question it all boils down to.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Thought Art]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Water by the River I like that. Very good research you've been doing.

I don't consider Ken Wilber's work to be that deep though. His descriptions of God leave me very unsatisfied. Which should be a warning to you guys. If Ken Wilber cannot get, WTF? You are in a very dangerous situation.

What’s WTF again?

[Hello from Russia]

59 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

What’s WTF again?

That's his advanced meditation model on how to achieve awakening through breathwork and other crap like this 

[Kuba Powiertowski]

@Leo Gura I don't know but maybe there is simpler explaination why some people who follows various buddhist schools, got stuck in some point. I assume that every "so called" spiritual path has stages. In meditation you go from being somebody / something to being nobody / nothing to being everybody / everything. When you stuck at "nobody / nothing" stage, you probably have not realized that there is still Supreme Witness of this nothingness. Otherwise nothingness wouldn't be known. Maybe that is the key here...

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, Kuba Powiertowski said:

@Leo Gura I don't know but maybe there is simpler explaination why some people who follows various buddhist schools, got stuck in some point. I assume that every "so called" spiritual path has stages. In meditation you go from being somebody / something to being nobody / nothing to being everybody / everything. When you stuck at "nobody / nothing" stage, you probably have not realized that there is still Supreme Witness of this nothingness. Otherwise nothingness wouldn't be known. Maybe that is the key here...

It's way more tricky than that.

I'm talking about a consciousness which what you explained does not reach.

No normal Buddhist will reach it. Perhaps a few extremely genetically gifted ones will, but I wouldn't even bet on that. You're really gambling with your spirituality there.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Leo Gura