Is It Possible To Get Out Of Enlightenment?

[Anlib]

Like if something extremely life threatening happens.

[Walter B]

2 minutes ago, Anlib said:

Like if something extremely life threatening happens.

Yes, and you must be aware that it is up to you to find yourself again when it subsides. Threatening things awaken all sorts of hormone patterns that bring about fight or flight. Not much peace to enjoy enlightenment with those things around you. Best you can do is be strong in mind and go back to your exercises, meditations, reading, watching Leo videos, or basically trancing yourself to break up the incoming unrest. It gets easier to resist with practice. And perhaps eventually you could become immune to it all. I was there at one time until drastic events broke me down.

[Guest]

If one is truly enlightened about what they are then there is no such thing as life-threatening.

Life cannot be threatened.  What a strange concept!

joy

 

[Neo]

I think the poster Anlib may mean can you get out of a trance like state.

[Anlib]

@Neo no,  I mean normal enlightenment, that the illosion of the self comes back after like, five years of consistent enlightenment.

Edited February 12, 2016 by Anlib

[jjer94]

1 hour ago, Anlib said:

Like if something extremely life threatening happens.

Enlightenment, or Truth, has nothing to do with life experiences. How can you threaten a Truth that was never born and doesn't die? 

If I misinterpreted your question and you're instead wondering if it's possible to become unenlightened...Yes, to a certain extent. Once you see the Truth, you can't unsee it, but you can cover it up by re-identifying with ego. After you have an awakening, it is very natural to fall back asleep into old conditioning. When you wake up after so many years of being fast asleep, you'll be feeling groggy. You'll want to fall back asleep into the illusion of security of what's familiar: your warm bed. You may even do so for a while. But once you've had an awakening, it's near impossible to fall back asleep permanently. You will naturally start taking off bed sheets and your pajamas...and then finally roll out of bed. You know the comfort from the bed is an illusion, and you will instead want to live in what's really there, which is awakedness. 

Survival instincts have little to do with awakening. Those are programmed responses that we don't have much control over. If you touch a hot pan, you will naturally recoil. If you're stuck in a burning house, you will want to get the heck out of there. Of course, there are exceptions. 

In the end, it doesn't matter how you deal with life-threatening situations. What does matter is that you've "sucked the marrow out of life" while you're still alive and well, and enlightenment allows you to suck the bone dry.

Edited February 12, 2016 by jjer94

[Ayla]

7 minutes ago, Anlib said:

@Neo no,  I mean normal enlightenment, that the illusion of the self comes back after like, five years of consistent enlightenment.

No. But vigilance over the ego's ways will be there for the duration of incarnation. 

[RandomPaul]

Hi! so I have been meaning to ask this for a while, but I was a bit afraid I might offend someone, but this is the perfect place for this question.

I think Alan Watts was amazing and I have mad respect for him, the way he presented the world was so harmonious and decisive at the same time. However I saw that his end envolved some alcohol abuse which might have caused a heart condition. Now, I got this from the internet, don't know how true it is, but if it is, does anyone know how such an enlightenment being fell in such an egotistical vice? thank you, and peace  

[Ayla]

@RandomPaul ,

An enlightened human being does not necessarily fit into our notions of "holiness". 

Not only they have seen and lived truth, but they were/are truth. From that perspective, they have no attachment to "body" or any type of constriction. They just enjoy life as it comes. 

Now if you want to make a point of attachment to alcohol or any other substance, please also note your own attachment to "no alcohol"  

[Leo Gura]

10 hours ago, RandomPaul said:

Hi! so I have been meaning to ask this for a while, but I was a bit afraid I might offend someone, but this is the perfect place for this question.

I think Alan Watts was amazing and I have mad respect for him, the way he presented the world was so harmonious and decisive at the same time. However I saw that his end envolved some alcohol abuse which might have caused a heart condition. Now, I got this from the internet, don't know how true it is, but if it is, does anyone know how such an enlightenment being fell in such an egotistical vice? thank you, and peace  

Enlightenment doesn't make you perfect.

I read of a modern-era Zen master who sexually molested female students. He was over 100 years old! He would also make advances on the wives of his married male students. It got so bad that after years of this, the students finally had to convene a meeting and draft a formal letter asking him to stop. He was 108 years old and meditated since he was like 12 years old.

100 years of meditation may not be enough to unwire the horny Japanese businessman out of the monk.

Lol

[RandomPaul]

@Leo Gura "Enlightenment doesn't make you perfect."

So I think I got it a bit wrong, I assumed that reaching enlightenment is also equivalent to acting within the formal / socially aclaimed moral values. BUT now I feel like since there shouldn't be any right or wrong, any behavior, as a manifestation of reality should be accepted as there is no need or point in fighting it.

So is there a danger in unconciously assuming that enlightenment si supposed to make you some sort of being with optimal social values when it comes to interacting with the rest of the world? (I ask this from the perspective of the sleeping human, since the interacting with the rest of the world makes no sense to the enlightened)

[Markus]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Enlightenment doesn't make you perfect.

I read of a modern-era Zen master who sexually molested female students. He was over 100 years old! He would also make advances on the wives of his married male students. It got so bad that after years of this, the students finally had to convene a meeting and draft a formal letter asking him to stop. He was 108 years old and meditated since he was like 12 years old.

100 years of meditation may not be enough to unwire the horny Japanese businessman out of the monk.

Lol

Joshu Sasaki Roshi? I wonder what additional work he would've needed to get these tendencies out of him. It actually seems like sexual misconduct is not too uncommon among Zen teachers.

[Leo Gura]

@Markus Well, I don't want to name names and spread gossip. Just wanted to illustrate that enlightenment and ethics are independent variables and that enlightened people can be sketchy.

[Markus]

@Leo Gura That's fair. I always feel embarrassment when someone points out to me I'm gossiping. On another note, I have a question for you, Leo. It seems to me that unethical behavior tends to cause suffering to the person engaging in it, and that having high enough awareness thus tends to make one's behavior very ethical. But if we're talking about a very enlightened person doing something that can cause great suffering to others, is he himself at all suffering from it? If not, he has no incentive to stop.

Edited February 13, 2016 by Markus

[Neo]

Lets hope that people who have conquered personal problems and addictions don't find these irrelevant when enlightened. Ok I realise my ego is being negative for some reason as a write this but it is a valid question no?

[Ayla]

4 minutes ago, Neo said:

Lets hope that people who have conquered personal problems and addictions don't find these irrelevant when enlightened. 

This would imply that those are "bad"... That's already the separation/duality model that keeps them alive  

[Mohsinuddin]

@Leo Gura But enlight people are more in peace and happy when they they do this kind of ethics? Or they just don't care?

 

[Ayla]

Just now, Mohsinuddin said:

@Leo Gura But enlight people are more in peace and happy when they they do this kind of ethics? Or they just don't care?

 

You need to understand that "this kind of ethics" are just a judgement in your head, based on your current perception of duality. (good/bad). 

Enlightened people are above that. It is not that they don't care. They just don't have the good/bad perspective (illusion) any longer.

[Neo]

7 minutes ago, Ayla said:

This would imply that those are "bad"... That's already the separation/duality model that keeps them alive  

Most models of reality have to keep one foot in practicality. This isn't a model. It's hard to keep remembering that.

[Rito]

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Enlightenment doesn't make you perfect.

I read of a modern-era Zen master who sexually molested female students. He was over 100 years old! He would also make advances on the wives of his married male students. It got so bad that after years of this, the students finally had to convene a meeting and draft a formal letter asking him to stop. He was 108 years old and meditated since he was like 12 years old.

100 years of meditation may not be enough to unwire the horny Japanese businessman out of the monk.

Lol

I understand that enlightenment doesnt make you perfect,you are still vulnerable to worldly temptations,But Leo is the Zen master really enlightened? Or is he just a false prophet?He has a impulse control problem,and  is definitely a sex addict and ergo a neurotic.All these sex crimes would have landed him in jail where we would not normally expect enlightened people to land up.

Edited February 13, 2016 by Rito