Is It Possible To Get Out Of Enlightenment?

[A way to Actualize]

12 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Enlightenment doesn't make you perfect.

I read of a modern-era Zen master who sexually molested female students. He was over 100 years old! He would also make advances on the wives of his married male students. It got so bad that after years of this, the students finally had to convene a meeting and draft a formal letter asking him to stop. He was 108 years old and meditated since he was like 12 years old.

100 years of meditation may not be enough to unwire the horny Japanese businessman out of the monk.

Lol

But hundred years of self-love does!

[oeadfbvhtmnsdf]

On 2/12/2016 at 8:40 PM, RandomPaul said:

Hi! so I have been meaning to ask this for a while, but I was a bit afraid I might offend someone, but this is the perfect place for this question.

I think Alan Watts was amazing and I have mad respect for him, the way he presented the world was so harmonious and decisive at the same time. However I saw that his end envolved some alcohol abuse which might have caused a heart condition. Now, I got this from the internet, don't know how true it is, but if it is, does anyone know how such an enlightenment being fell in such an egotistical vice? thank you, and peace  

Does anybody know, was Alan Watts even enlightened? I think that Osho somewhere said he was not.

[Emerald]

16 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Enlightenment doesn't make you perfect.

I read of a modern-era Zen master who sexually molested female students. He was over 100 years old! He would also make advances on the wives of his married male students. It got so bad that after years of this, the students finally had to convene a meeting and draft a formal letter asking him to stop. He was 108 years old and meditated since he was like 12 years old.

100 years of meditation may not be enough to unwire the horny Japanese businessman out of the monk.

Lol

When I had my experiences, there was no true distinction between other and self. So, I naturally wanted to treat others well in a most genuine way. On the other hand violent, hedonistic, and destructive urges came up too; chaotically clashing up against my urges for benevolence. It was like a perpetual thought war going on in my mind that I was suddenly able to take myself out of and watch from the sidelines. I even had an urge to cut myself just to see the blood and enjoy the sight of it. But I had the wisdom to know that these urges weren't worth acting upon because they would cause suffering to me and others. But I also realized that everything was always in divine order: the good, the bad, and the ugly. So, if I were to act on my destructive urges, reality would still be perfect. So, it seems to me as though that particular Zen master directly ignored the voice of wisdom... either that or the voice of wisdom was telling him to do some fucked up things... The latter possibility is terrifying to me from the perspective I now hold. 

[Matthew Lamot]

Self Realization is permanent, if you do it properly and have a thorough understanding of what it is.  You cannot lose if you are serious enough.

[Josh2]

@Matthew Lamot Your right! Enlightenment is a permanent inner realization .... It cannot possibly get lost. Becoming enlightened means having KILLED the ego. (But its structures may remain)

[Matthew Lamot]

On 2/12/2016 at 5:41 AM, Leo Gura said:

Enlightenment doesn't make you perfect.

I read of a modern-era Zen master who sexually molested female students. He was over 100 years old! He would also make advances on the wives of his married male students. It got so bad that after years of this, the students finally had to convene a meeting and draft a formal letter asking him to stop. He was 108 years old and meditated since he was like 12 years old.

100 years of meditation may not be enough to unwire the horny Japanese businessman out of the monk.

Lol

This guy does not sound Enlightened to me.  He sounds like he had many binding vasanas that kept him in bondage to his desires.

Now this raises the question in my mind, can there be such a thing as pseudo awakening?  Where it's just a very shallow realization that there is nothing right or wrong?  Because this bloke here sounds like he was doing just that, still a slave to his binding vasana while pretending on the level of mind that there was nothing wrong with his blatant attachment to objects?

This is what I don't understand about some of these definitions of enlightenment.  Enlightenment is the same, always has been the same because there is only One Self.  And from what I understand a person who is actually liberated means they are liberated from bondage to the objects of the world because the objects actually hold no inherent value.

 

[David1]

23 hours ago, Matthew Lamot said:

Self Realization is permanent, if you do it properly and have a thorough understanding of what it is.  You cannot lose if you are serious enough.

True. You can not 'unrealize' something. Maybe if you have a car accident and you have amnesia?

[Rashad]

True @David1 it's like learning to ride a bike once you know it then you almost can't forget but you might fall off the bike and have some injuries, same with Enlightenment, you would have different levels of, in a nutshell "The Awakening".

[Josh2]

@Matthew Lamot I don't know where but Leo once wrote on the forum how once the ego is killed, some of its large structures may remain. So for example if u have confidence problems, you would with your awareness penetrate into its root and finally dissentangle it - this is where real self actualization/improvement begins. Do this until you have no more cravings and you are not holding on to life, stimulation and more.

 

if you do this you would be unimaginable happy  

[askdfjnak]

If it wasn't possible to get out of enlightenment, everybody would be enlightened.

[30secs]

I think Enlightment doesnt make you perfectly fearless, like if you watch horror movie you know in the first place that it was just a movie(not real).  Maybe and Enlightened person scared when something life threatening happen, but that was just for a moment, he can absorb the situation for a while and see it's just an illusion. 

[Richard Alpert]

 

On ‎11‎.‎2‎.‎2016 at 9:40 PM, RandomPaul said:

Hi! so I have been meaning to ask this for a while, but I was a bit afraid I might offend someone, but this is the perfect place for this question.

I think Alan Watts was amazing and I have mad respect for him, the way he presented the world was so harmonious and decisive at the same time. However I saw that his end envolved some alcohol abuse which might have caused a heart condition. Now, I got this from the internet, don't know how true it is, but if it is, does anyone know how such an enlightenment being fell in such an egotistical vice? thank you, and peace  

I love Alan Watts, I have most of his books and watched all the lectures. I love how he breaks down the universe.

But he was a different kind of guy than you think. He lived a very hedonistic life style: married 3 times (cheated all of them), booze-bag and a chain smoker. He didnt have a meditation practice (in his youth he studied zen etc and meditated, but not in the later years). He himself said that he felt like a trickster, which made him feel empty. One of his buddies said that Alan always found trouble wherever he go. There´s a book called zen effects, which shows a little bit more who alan watts was.

He was a genius at public speaking and using language. But not so genius in many other areas. I still love the guy, but i dont think he was very enlightened

[Matthew Lamot]

16 hours ago, 30secs said:

I think Enlightment doesnt make you perfectly fearless, like if you watch horror movie you know in the first place that it was just a movie(not real).  Maybe and Enlightened person scared when something life threatening happen, but that was just for a moment, he can absorb the situation for a while and see it's just an illusion. 

Self-Realized people are not afraid of death.  There is no death, it's a concept

[Eelco1981]

I once read that the process of Enlightenment goes likes this: like people who believe the moon is being eaten by some monster every month. But once you learn how the moon really appears and disappears, you can never make yourself believe the story of the monster again.

[MarcusJ]

I have been told we are all "Divine Consciousness" having a unique experience.  Having a different point of view.  The body / mind is just a Conduit for consciousness, a tool if you will.  The problems just occur when the tool runs off unconsciously.   The Zen master who fucked his students was just providing another experience for his students, and himself?  The question is, was the Zen Master having an addiction?  Or was he just providing a higher form of service?   I'm not condoning his actions but there is far to much going on behind the scenes than meets the Zen eye.