Critique: Leo's video on the left is one of his worst...

[Phil777]

@Thought Art Nah. I don't see that here honestly. I used to be a bit obnoxious in my starting days 4 years ago, Quickly learned that that's not effective one bit.

Eating meat doesn't have special protection against criticism and no, vegans are not automatically obnoxious stage green vegans for bringing forth good arguments in a proactive and respectful manner.

I am chill with people eating meat in front of me, I enjoy eating meat. I just don't do it for reasons ABC. I even know someone who studies meat processing specifically and am really cool with him. You misjudged me prematurely... which isn't very stage yellow.

Be careful not to misuse spiral dynamics to confirm your hunches. My arguments made you uncomfortable. So you put me in a lower tier down the spiral. Easy checkmate, It's the move Leo mentioned in the left episode, where you put someone in a category: racist, orange, tier 1, whatever. You miss the substance of what's being actually said when you do that.

But hey, now you learned, if you are open, that you may have some blind spots as well  Hit me with more. Let's grow together through civil discourse

I'll hit the mat and do some qi gong now as well. Working on the Dragon Orbit again  Do you practice semen retention as well alongside your Qi Gong practice? 

 

 

[Thought Art]

@Phil777 No, it’s how your acting, etc

I perceived you defending your view here very strongly and even fighting others for not seeing your view.

I’m not putting you in a category. But, I can observe your behaviour and say that behaviour seems green to me. In this circumstance. I don’t know you. Which makes me think you don’t get tier 2 when you say “that’s not tier 2, so and so isn’t standing up for xyz” when tier 2 is more subtle.

Edited October 25, 2022 by Thought Art

[Thought Art]

@Phil777 Nothing you’ve said has made me uncomfortable.
 

People generally aren’t at single stages. So, I’m not putting you at a stage. But, when you fight others on a thread over veganism I see the behaviour as stage green. But, I obviously don’t know you. 

 

Lastly, I’m essentially Vegan. So, I’m familiar with all your arguments and used to be very stage green vegan. 
 

Lastly lastly, I’m full of blind spots and I’m always learning. That’s all we’re doing here. 
 

I’m not putting you at a lower stage and me at a higher stage. Spiral dynamics isn’t a power heirchy but one of values. I’m not even saying I’m stage yellow and your stage green. I don’t easily put myself on the spiral. I just know that, from what I’ve studied your views aren’t purely tier 2 and your judgements of Leo aren’t coming from a strong yellow/ turquoise place. They, aren’t void of them either.

I do doubt your understanding of tier 2, but that’s fine. It’s a really tricky thing to grapple with. So, I’m fine being wrong and I’m fine others people wrong.

Edited October 25, 2022 by Thought Art

[Phil777]

@Thought Art @Thought Art What I am quite certain of (learning to phrase things in less absolute terms here) is that, first of all, Leo's assesment of vegans in terms of spiral development is limited and that you only think "but you argue about it" is a valid indicator for green, rather than yellow because it's the vegan issue and people have gotten so used to associate it with "annoying vegans" pushing their vegan agenda. It's a relative cultural groove, part of the current Zeitgeist.

This topic is culturally at the tipping point where the majority just wants to be comfortable and ngaf about animals and a fast growing minority is willing to push for change. It's working, the numbers don't lie, at least in first world countries.

How come that it's only really with the vegan issue we are seeing this kind of rhetoric where simply mentioning it, let alone some respectful arguments in favour of veganism and in opposition to meat consumption, will cause one to be labeled as angry, annoying or in stage green, not respecting others preferences.

There is nothing inherently stage yellow about not engaging in productive debates. I don't do this in real life with anyone who isn't at least a bit curious, that isn't willing to listen or who doesn't argue in good faith. I let people live how they want to and sprinkle some facts in here and there if it makes sense in the context of the natural flow of our conversation. I was eating omnivorous for 19 years so I know what it's like. I sympathize.

This forum however is an open marketplace of ideas for people who want to debate things with intellectual curiosity. I am not arguing under the illusion that I will change what you, Leo or anyone puts into their bodies but simply to test and to hear what other, smart and curious individuals have to say on the issue. And if in this space, where we want to find truth with a capital T, arguments about plant based dieting are discredited with "you annoying stage 1, green vegan", we are missing the mark. I get that that's not how you think in particular.

It's not so much about veganism specifically either but the motivations behind it, the worldview and level of development that creates a drive and concern beyond oneself, beyond ones species even. And it is to a large extend indicative of typical leftist values. And those were in my humble opinion, at some points a bit unskillfully questioned in his first video. He brought up the topic of veganism in his video, and he made arguements that don't hold up under scrutiny.

So according to your own criteria for categorization "actively arguing about things", Leo with his take on veganism in his video and his responses in this chat, isn't coming from tier 2. If veganism is the best diet from a purely harm reduction and ethics stand point, where is an argument against it and in favour of eating meat positioned? Orange? See where we are starting to tread in murky waters with sd? Only cause eating meat is default doesn't mean that arguing for it isn't as annoying or uncalibrated as vegan arguments.

If Leo has a gut condition and needs to eat purely meat to feel good, he should go for it btw. I think that's his motivation behind carnivore if I am not mistaken.

Also look at what you see in me and look at Leo's responses. He called me a jackass? I am not certain about many things but that's definitely not the result of tier 2 cognition.

So, let's use spiral dynamics as it is intended, as a guideline for better understanding our fellow humans and a tool for humble self reflection rather than a way to feel superior, special or elite.

 

[Thought Art]

23 minutes ago, Phil777 said:

@Thought Art @Thought Art 

Also look at what you see in me and look at Leo's responses. He called me a jackass? I am not certain about many things but that's definitely not the result of tier 2 cognition.

Well, maybe he called you a jackass because you called him stupid in your opening post. 
 

Also, that post you made re-quoting Leo but putting slavery in there was pretty rude. 
 

Your behaviour isn’t descriptive of being yellow or tier 2 behaviour. Your stuck in your perspective, from my point of view. I personally view your post and behaviour as green. But, that’s fine…
 

This is something you want to fight for, go fight for it. No one here is saying you shouldn’t. Fighting for animals and the environment and everything as it’s probably the best diet for most people and the planet as a whole is a good thing. 
 

But, most of the world doesn’t see it this way right now. Most people don’t understand nutrition like you do. Nutrition as a field has so many different beliefs in it. A lot of people think they need meat to survive. If you think you can, or that the word will shift away from eating meat faster than Leo’s projections that’s also fine. 
 

The videos are about understanding others perspectives other than your own. 
 

Another characteristic of stage yellow is not getting caught up in minutiae. It’s about seeing Leo’s larger points that he is making in his “limits of left” videos. He isn’t going to be correct  about everything, every little detail.  
 

But, try to be a little more kind and respectful going forward and trying to understand other peoples perspectives. I’ll do the same.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Thought Art

[Tanz]

In short if the "left" claims to be more conscious, they must be more tolerant and allow people to find their way.  Freewill is the gift you gave life when you created the world.  

I don't hit my children because they didn't listen to me.

Both sides are guilty of "hitting their child", that is the major problem. 

The right believes they are more conscious, and so does the left, so it justifies their actions.  

Edited October 26, 2022 by Tanz

[Thought Art]

43 minutes ago, Phil777 said:

 

So, let's use spiral dynamics as it is intended, as a guideline for better understanding our fellow humans and a tool for humble self reflection rather than a way to feel superior, special or elite.

 

I’m not doing that. 
 

I am attempting to objectively analyze your behaviour and stance using spiral dynamics. 
 

I’m only bringing up tier 2 because you keep attacking Leo for not being tier 2. 

In fact this is exactly what Leo does in his work and I try best to do. 
 

I’m not judging you that I think your coming from a green place. Maybe I’ll keep my interpretations in my head for now on as they likely will receive a defensive response. 
 

I’ve clearly stated my views on my own place in the spiral and yet you say this. 

In fact, your whole opening post is all about your interpretations and ideas being superior. Which is why you called him stupid and speak down to me.

I hope over the coming weeks you can self reflect on your conduct here in this thread.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Thought Art

[Thought Art]

32 minutes ago, Phil777 said:

@Thought Art @Thought Art 

So according to your own criteria for categorization "actively arguing about things", Leo with his take on veganism in his video and his responses in this chat, isn't coming from tier 2. 

 

That’s not an actual quote of what I said and it’s not a criteria I’ve layed out. It’s also clear to me your rather intellectually dishonest, full of double standards, partake in gas lighting and straw manning others. 
 

I won’t be responding anymore to this thread. Best.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Thought Art

[Leo Gura]

6 hours ago, Phil777 said:

So to sit in your armchair, advocate complacency (300-year timeframe) and call yourself an advanced thinker in the process isn't doing any good. You are not doing any good with that. That's my claim.

If you wanna be practical here, you should take note that the excesses of the left have driven the right wing to near insanity, terrorism, and civil war. Yet you keep pushing. And you call that Tier 2? You keep pushing and you will get a fascist into office who will set us back 30 years.

Tier 2 is all about Spiral Wizardry, which is exactly what my video series demonstrated.

In a nutshell the problem with leftists is that they do not understand the need for Spiral Wizardry. That's it.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Phil777]

@Thought ArtYou can categorize me how you want if that is helpful to you. I won't argue this point any further. I have some food for thought from you. I'll let that simmer a bit. Hopefully you will too and haven't shut down due to my conduct.

I think we need to be careful not to demonize green tendencies within us and aim to let them flourish in healthy way under the guidance of tier 2

If you are curious about my self reflections, go see my post about effective communication. I reflect on my mistake with starting the initial post in the way I did. I made a lot of mistakes and I will aim to do much better in the future. So, this was helpful to me, your reflections were helpful to me. Thank you.

And if my perspectives and suggestions seemed rude or condescending to you, my apologies.

[Godhead]

The way Leo takes on the status quo of American politics and explains how it is almost impossible to change while developing nations have solved the same issues America is facing is honestly hilarious. 

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

If you wanna be practical here, you should take note that the excesses of the left have driven the right wing to near insanity, terrorism, and civil war.

Blaming the left for right-wing idiocy is extremely myopic.

The American left is a joke and yet America's right-wing movement is completely bonkers.

[Phil777]

@Leo Gura I get where you are coming from. I agree that we need a more spiral wizard approach but we also need a growing and increasingly strong left. So let's not demonize stage green tendencies but aim to transmute them. We need to keep pushing for the right thing but do so intelligently. The right is winning the culture war and it's looking rather scary. So we need a fire under our ass, a desire for a better world. And this idealistic drive is what green is all about. But you are totally right in that it needs to be done in a calibrated and intelligent way. With increasing development comes increasing responsibility

@Godhead

Leo doesn't dispute that the right is to blame for its own antics and corruption. His video on the left is just for us lefties to better deal with them without making the problem worse. What can we do to actually and effectively understand the right and help it evolve? Cause if we help them evolve, we can evolve better ourselves cause - democracy.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Phil777

[Epikur]

45 minutes ago, Godhead said:

The way Leo takes on the status quo of American politics and explains how it is almost impossible to change while developing nations have solved the same issues America is facing is honestly hilarious. 

Blaming the left for right-wing idiocy is extremely myopic.

The American left is a joke and yet America's right-wing movement is completely bonkers.

Thes other countries enjoyed to be save behind the shadow of the USA. Without the USA who knows if they could have even survived.

Take into account after WW1 socialists took over Germany. The question is was it worth it?

[DocWatts]

3 hours ago, Epikur said:

Take into account after WW1 socialists took over Germany. The question is was it worth it?

On 10/24/2022 at 8:21 PM, Jake Chambers said:

 

That's a reductionistic take. The core issue is that the German military dictatorship was unwilling to take responsibility for losing the war, and chose to instead spread conspiracy theories that the army was 'stabbed in the back' by internal enemies. The German social democrats were just a convenient scapegoat, literally any government that came to power in such circumstances was in all likelihood f*cked. A non-socialist government was still going to be faced with the same issues (ie the immense suffering caused by the war reparations and later the Great Depression) that the Nazis were able to capitalize upon.

Edited October 26, 2022 by DocWatts

[DocWatts]

11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

If you wanna be practical here, you should take note that the excesses of the left have driven the right wing to near insanity, terrorism, and civil war. 

Another useful perspective for looking at this is that there's both a Demand and a Supply side to the rise of fascistic ideologies and behaviors.

While the Demand side of the equation of course refers to the dialectics of a society moving towards Green while there's still a large segment of the population that's anchored in Blue, there's also a Supply side to these issues that shouldn't be overlooked. By the Supply side I'm referring to the incentives structures within our society that provide Bad Actors plenty of opportunities to benefit themselves by deepening the existing divides within society, by dousing an already dangerous fire with boatloads of extra fuel. While much of the outrage we're seeing is a natural result of shifting societal values, a lot of it is being artificially cultivated as a form of devilry.

Focusing on just the Supply or Demand side alone will result in blindspots, as the two are mutually enforcing.

Edited October 26, 2022 by DocWatts

[Leo Gura]

@DocWatts Nice distinctions. Solid systems thinkin'.

You earn a Spiral cookie.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Superfluo]

1 hour ago, DocWatts said:

I'm referring to the incentives structures within our society that provide Bad Actors plenty of opportunities to benefit themselves by deepening the existing divides within society

Which structures are you referring to precisely?

[DocWatts]

19 minutes ago, Superfluo said:

Which structures are you referring to precisely?

Cultivating outrage and exploiting/deepening the existing divisions within our society is an externality of the incentive structures inherent to the media environment within our society.

Bad Actors will see the divisions in our society as a a lucrative market niche to be exploited. The YouTube algorithms which push emotionally triggering and sensationalist content as a way of cultivating engagement (ie screen time) is just one example of this. Examples of this can be found on the Left and Right, but the Right has a sizeable advantage here because the people they're marketing to are on the whole at a lower stage of Spiral development.

Politicians like Trump have figured out that tapping into these societal divisions is a lucrative way of engaging a political base that can exploited for personal gain.

Edited October 26, 2022 by DocWatts

[Godhead]

4 hours ago, Epikur said:

Take into account after WW1 socialists took over Germany. The question is was it worth it?

They didn't "take over", the SPD got voted in and calling them socialists is a bit of a stretch imo. The rise of the Nazi party and consequently WWII had many reasons: inflation, dislike of democracy, extreme reparations, economic struggles, carrying all the blame for WW1 etc. etc. 

The idea that it was because the Government was "socialist" is completely unsubstantiated. 

[DocWatts]

@Epikur As regards the end of WW1, it's also worth pointing out that the revolution in Germany which toppled the Kaiser was literally one of the conditions for the Allies to start peace negotiations to end the war. The German military was close to collapsing by this point and millions of Germans were starving, so ending the war immediately was Germany's only hope of maintaining any degree of national sovereignty.

The alternative would have been a total military occupation of Germany, which of course didn't happen until the end of the next world war.

Unfortunately, this also had the unintended consequence of making it easier for the German military dictatorship to deceive the public that the primary reason Germany lost was due to being stabbed in the back by internal enemies.

This allowed German leadership to push conspiracy theories based on the kernal of truth claim that Allies troops never occupied German soil, in order to wash thier hands of responsibility for losing the war; unjustly transferring that responsibility for defeat to the new Weimar republic, which is one of the many factors that smothered it in the crib.

Edited October 26, 2022 by DocWatts