Critique: Leo's video on the left is one of his worst...

[Tyler Robinson]

50 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Of course meat is relatively expensive compared to starchy carbs.

But meat is also very filling and meat is wired into the cuisine of virtually every culture. Vegans are in denial about that reality.

When you are talking about ending meat, you are literally talking about destroying culture. Which is why it pisses people off so much.

Does the kind of meat matter? 

 

Do you differentiate between chicken, goat, turkey, fish, beef, pork? 

[Thought Art]

53 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I doubt that.

Here is a short Vox article about the amount of land and canaries that go into animal agriculture…

Vox Article

[Leo Gura]

Of course animals use more land.

But we are not sarce on land in most places.

Regardless this is irrelavent to my videos. Vegans will try to debate this stuff all day and miss the big picture. Even if vegansim is best, healthiest, cheapest, greenest, most ethical, it doesn't matter.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Thought Art]

@Leo Gura The growing of cattle works for some places but not others. For example, in South America using large amounts of water for cattle leaves many people without access to water so they die. 
 

and, it’s not just about more or less land but all the different systems Of earth ecology and economy and how those intertwine that I’m pointing to. 
 

You could also say the consumption of meat destroys other cultures that didn’t consume that much in the past but now want to eat more like the west. 
 

Maybe I’m bleeding over on scope here

I am of the opinion that if the world ate less meat it would be better for humans and the planet overall.

But, that’s besides the point here. People have their culture and their beliefs around food. 

Edited October 24, 2022 by Thought Art

[Thought Art]

I wonder if there is a common misconception that people at tier 2 are always right, always agree and always see one another as ‘reasonable’

because ‘reasonable’ has relative aspects to it

[Stovo]

On 23/10/2022 at 0:05 PM, Phil777 said:

300 year time frame for some basic healthcare? For some basic equality of opportunity like we have here in Germany and other european states? Dude, I pay 600 bucks a year for university. Germany still prospers, Europe is way ahead of you in most issues. All you got is the innovation coming out of silicon valley and military supremacy. But that's not mutually exclusive with treating your people with some decency.

The same Germany that shut down all their nuclear power plants making them overly reliant on Russian energy and now having to switch on coal plants to keep the lights on? 

The same Germany that even now has learned zero lessons and is still seeking to shut down its nukes? 

These are perfect examples of left-wing idealism gone wrong. 

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Thought Art said:

I am of the opinion that if the world ate less meat it would be better for humans and the planet overall.

Nothing I said contradicts that.

The world would also be better if we all drove hydrogen cars. But it ain't gonna happen in our lifetimes and it would be smart to understand why rather than whine about it and throw cans of soup like children.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Thought Art]

@Leo Gura I agree

i think that’s what the left fails to see also and it tends to run heavy in our dialogues … how it ‘SHOULD’ be vs the reality 

people shouldn’t be racist

people shouldn’t eat meat

people shouldn’t do sexual misconduct 

people should be environmentally friendly

people shouldn’t shoot each other 

 

etc

Edited October 24, 2022 by Thought Art

[DocWatts]

16 hours ago, thepixelmonk said:

Largely agree with you Phil. Just don't follow Leo for his political takes and you'll be alright lol.

Honestly it's probably not a bad thing that Leo will have bad takes from time to time, as it's a good reminder that everyone has blindspots, and that one shouldn't simp for teachers and gurus.

Hell, even the OG Ken Wilber has shadow aspects that he hasn't integrated, which make their way into his work from time to time...

Anyone who's spent a significant amount of time here is likely already aware of the limitations of the Green-meme. Reasonable people who have integrated aspects of Yellow can of course disagree on where and to what degree Green is being unreasonable (and that goes for the other Spiral stages as well). Not like people who embody Tier2 values are a monolithic block that are in agreement about everything, after all 

Edited October 24, 2022 by DocWatts

[DocWatts]

From my own perspective, the overall blind spot of the Left can be summed up as a lack of self-awareness around thier developmental privileges (which in all fairness Leo does a good job of expounding upon in the vid).

In that they have been privileged enough to be socialized into a more ethically and epistemically sophisticated worldview (at least in comparison to right-wing worldviews).

Being unaware or unmindful that one is privileged in this way can make it difficult to be compassionate towards other people who haven't had access to the same opportunities. Ironically, this is a more subtle version of the mistake that conversative and libertarians make in thier victim blaming of people whom our socio-economic system has failed.

Edited October 24, 2022 by DocWatts

[RareGodzilla]

Quote

300 year time frame for some basic healthcare?

I think that some of your disagreements come out of cultural differences.

The thing is that if you took the European healthcare system and applied it to USA, it wouldn't work. Culture is a big problem. In Europe, we have public programs that encourage fitness; just basic urbanism is more walkable; people bike to work; they use public transport more. Every minute spent walking and not just sitting down in your car is a net positive for public health. We have way more regulation when it comes to food quality. Portion sizes are regulated, sugar is limited, for example our coke has less sugar. Food in general is much better quality, so even people who don't take care of their health at all are forced by the system to eat better. And just in general, people tend to eat better. It's a cultural thing. You can't buy deep-fried butter or sugar-glazed ham here. I remember trying to find a place that sells Mountan Dew, but there isn't any because it's too unhealthy you can't sell it here.

I think that many Americans don't appreciate the complexity needed for a socialized health system to work. But I believe it's a worthwhile pursuit. Healthy people are happier and more productive. This makes it cheaper in the long term, but you should be aware that it's not as simple as throwing a bunch of money at hospitals. It will necessitate significant societal changes. 

 

[DocWatts]

Also, there seems to be some confusion on this point:

Germany, Norway, and the other progressive Western Europe counties are Social Democracies, rather than Socialist countries.  At the end of the day Norway and Finland are still capitalist countries, they just use a far more humane form (for thier own citizens at least) of capitalism  than what exists in a place like the United States.

Leo's point (and one that I agree with) was that the Spiral center of gravity for the entire culture would have to be much higher than it's current Blue/Orange leanings in order to sustain the kind of socialism that SD-Green advocates for.

Social democracy, rather than Socialism, is the next developmental stage for the United States, and there's a far more realistic chance of seeing the Overton window shift in this direction in our lifetimes.

Edited October 24, 2022 by DocWatts

[Phil777]

@Stovo Being dependent on Russian gas is because of the left? The CDU, a center-right, christian party, that governed for the last 16 years, brought us this mess. The greens, the most left leaning party in Germany is the most vocal about supplying Ukraine with weapons against Russia btw. 

Shutting off the nuclear power? also CDU under Merkel.

[Phil777]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Even if vegansim is best, healthiest, cheapest, greenest, most ethical, it doesn't matter.

um...      ok?

[Thought Art]

@Phil777 it doesn’t matter because people won’t stop eating it 

[Phil777]

@Thought Art "Outlawing slavery is the most ethical, humane and most morally sound action to take."

"It doesn't matter as people want to and are going to own slaves" - most americans in the first half of the 19th century.

"tier 2" everybody.

[Phil777]

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Nothing I said contradicts that.

The world would also be better if we all drove hydrogen cars. But it ain't gonna happen in our lifetimes and it would be smart to understand why rather than whine about it and throw cans of soup like children.

You will probably live another 50-60 years, I even 60-70 years.

So what will happen in our lifetimes is like 90-95 percent mix of electric and hydrogen (and better future technologies).

No one is expecting perfection or absolutes.

Same with veganism, social security and healthcare reform. If you americans fail to do it, you won't be competitive long term as your populations creative and innovative capability is locked up in a dreadful and fearful rat race of unsafety and existential angst.

[aurum]

34 minutes ago, Phil777 said:

@Thought Art "Outlawing slavery is the most ethical, humane and most morally sound action to take."

"It doesn't matter as people want to and are going to own slaves" - most americans in the first half of the 19th century.

"tier 2" everybody.

That’s not an accurate representation of how tier 2 thinks. You are implying that tier 2 has a defeatist attitude when in fact it usually does not.

Easy to mistake to someone as a defeatist when in fact they are surrendering to reality. These are not the same. The difference can seem subtle but it’s highly significant.

A tier 2 attitude towards growing up in slavery would not just be to shrug its shoulders. It would be to understand why slavery exists in all its complexities. And when you do that, what you will find is that eliminating slavery is far less simple than you originally thought. Which is not to say you can’t work towards that aim, but it should be grounded in the reality of the situation.

In essence, you are making the tier one mistake that Leo spoke about when he said that leftists tend to see tier 2 people as not progressive enough. 

[Thought Art]

@Phil777 what do you mean?

Human slavery and eating meat aren’t really symmetrical. 
 

As I understand it, a hallmark of being tier 2 is being able to understand others choices and actions without judgment or condemnation. 
 

Okay, I’d like to ask some questions.

1. What does being tier 2 to you mean?

Edited October 24, 2022 by Thought Art

[LordFall]

On 10/23/2022 at 8:51 AM, Phil777 said:

12 hours ago, Phil777 said:

@Leo Gura

You cannot honestly state that most people are inherently lazy and selfish if you have the right understanding of what causes people to develop psyches that manifest such characteristics. There are seldom children that get born in a healthy, growth conducive environment with their needs met and that are loved by both parents, that do not have an insatiable drive for exploration, adventure, expression and "doing things" as well as a ln inherent drive to share and collaborate.

However, and I am going to make an additional point here, how much more a CEO for example gets compensated more than his/her employees is, as you point out in your video, relative. We agree. You seem to make the point that that justifies the current level of inequality. No, I would argue that it has gone way out of hand and that people havng to work 2-3 jobs just to make end meet is not tolerable or justified by "value creation" which is relative as well. The determination of the value of goods and services may be best determined through market forces as of now, but it is still a relative system. Furthermore, How the generated profit is split between all actors within a company is completely relative and to a large degree not coupled to market forces. If the CEO or the savings account of the company got 10 percent less of the overall profit but instead this money got addeed to the salary of all workers, they would all have significantly higher standards of living without significantly infringing on the survivabilty of the company or the standard of living of the CEO. That's how out of proportion and radicalized this capitalistic system has become. We don't need communism but simply a less prominent lower class and an uncompromising social security system.

My friend, I think you're in for a rude awakening. Our society is not really even close to stage orange yet, meaning the full depth of capitalistic individualism has only begun to manifest itself. It's still being held up by tribal collectivism(stage blue.)

When the scope of things like automation, decentralized finance, drone warfare, etc are reached and you can start to make billions with 5-10 people as opposed to tens/hundreds of thousands of employees, you will see what a stage orange world will look like; which is needed to reach the stage green state of a more humane economy. 

The 21st century will IMO be way more brutal than the 20th century. Your ideas are nice but the average person is not ready/willing to take full responsibility for their own existence. Even today you can make a living-learning relatively simple freelancing skills and most people refuse to do that. I say refuse because I'm not talking about people in poverty that don't have time to study business because they're working three jobs. I mean middle-class cosy people. When the rugged is pulled from under them, they will struggle big time.

COVID has taught me how separated and antagonistic our communities and society still are. We are nowhere close to widespread mutual collaboration. When the basic comforts of society are pulled from us, the average person is just as ruthless and cruel as you would expect stage-red people to be.