Critique: Leo's video on the left is one of his worst...

[Phil777]

I know, I know. Polarising title. But after some reflection I strongly feel that this is true.

Dear Leo,

To preface: I agree with a couple points: how we shouldn't demonize racists but give them leeway for change. That's it. In 3h that's his only really solid point. Maybe the trans sports issue but that's such a no brainer. 

The rest... Gosh. Leo, what's up with my man? Seriously... Damn. Holy smokes.

300 year time frame for some basic healthcare? For some basic equality of opportunity like we have here in Germany and other european states? Dude, I pay 600 bucks a year for university. Germany still prospers, Europe is way ahead of you in most issues. All you got is the innovation coming out of silicon valley and military supremacy. But that's not mutually exclusive with treating your people with some decency.

Furthermore, I get that people don't vote primarily on policy but on "vibe". Yes. But vibe is something that can change, it's so ethereal and it costs nothing. So to portray this misunderstanding as this unsolvable problem is not justified.

Also your Susan cook whatever model and spiral dynamics are simply models. You constantly confuse the map for the territory. As if this little framework encaptures the reality of all of human development, psychology, politics and society. If you think this is true, you are basically believing in something without evidence or direct experience. 

Your objection "how do you know that?" Is only used when someone presents an argument that contradicts your viewpoints. You always revert back to solipsism when it fits your narrative.

But when it comes to ridiculous statements like 90 percent of people are dumb, lazy and selfish and cannot amount to nothing so better bow down to the rapist slave master for some crumbles, you think this is true. Simply true, you never say things like "in my opinion" , "from my point of view", "I think this or that". It's always in these absolutes sprinkled with a good piece of arrogance and a slice of superiority complex.

The number one thing that makes me shake my head is: "this is coming from tier 2". Come on. Come on man. Are you really so full of yourself? You are definitely not fully tier 2, not even predominantly. You haven't even integrated most lessons from green yet.

And again, this is JUST A MODEL. A stupid set of ideas and frameworks that don't even capture 0,01 percent of the complexity of life.

Your use of principles like not-knowing, relativism and non duality is completely arbitrary, hypocritical and laced with double standards.

Finally your analysis of vegans is simply laughable. You have no idea what you are talking about. Humans did not primarily live off of meat at all. If you had any idea about this topic you would know that. 

And your argument why people in third world countries need meat is because it provides more calories? Seriously, this is among the worst arguments I have ever heard for eating meat indicating an absolutely lacklustre understanding of nutrition and biology. 

To get 600 calories of beef, you need to feed beef cattle approx. 24000 kcal of grain.

Lentils, other legumes as well as soy could be cultivated on that land and are are packed with protein and many essential minerals and vitamins and can sustain way more people, requiring a lot less land.

There are some nuanced arguments to be made about certain micronutrients bioavailability, food sensitivities and gut conditions for some people.

No one is saying everyone needs to be a vegan as it requires some nutritional knowledge for certain micronutrients like B12, Omega 3 (especially DHA), Choline and Vitamin K2. 

But a primarily plant based diet is best for overall health, sustainability and not some privileged position of ungrateful college students. Most of these foods are dirt cheap. Plants food are on average way cheaper, especially when you take out government subsidies for the meat industry. 

So to recap your point about veganism: you are absolutely ignorant, uneducated and completely and utterly wrong and dare I say stupid (as you are so quick to judge people as stupid, so here, take it back).

I write this text with love as I expect much better from you. Your points are not brilliant, not tier 2, not very complex, nor revolutionary. You don't even come close to someone like Schmachtenberger for example.

Check yourself, you have no grounds to talk down to all of humanity like you do. It's honestly laughable. It's time that you develop true intelligence beyond your psychedelic induced awakenings and train your mind.

Let me tell you, if you don't work out, eat fruits and vegetables, do Breathwork and extended meditation sessions on a regular basis, you haven't tapped into the full capacity of your brain yet. My honest advice is that you pump the breaks when it comes to psychedelics and you do groundwork to stabilise your normal waking state into a higher, MORE LOVING baseline state of consciousness because your peak experiences seem to give you a literal god complex and unjustified sense of all knowingness and superiority. You think because you had experiences of infinite intelligence, your egoic mind is now infallible and it's ideas not filtered through your distortions, traumas and blind spots. They are. It's obvious to all of us and you are making a fool of yourself.

I am aware that this is my perspective but that's honestly all I can do: share my limited, humble perspective

Ok, I am done here. Love you Leo. Have a good day everyone.

 

Edited October 23, 2022 by Phil777
Typo.

[Leo Gura]

Unfortunately you didn't hear what I was communicating because you were too busy defending your existing positions.

Nice try gaslighting me though

This is exactly what's wrong with the left. You can't teach them anything they don't already believe. It's sad that most leftists who watch my video will react very similar to you and learn nothing.

Edited October 23, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Phil777]

@Leo Gura

Don't get me wrong, I have no intention of gaslighting you, Leo. I get how my post may come of as such an attempt. I assure you, that was not my goal. I like you, I want the best for you and I appreciate your work as it has changed my life for the better more than anything else on the Internet. I apologize for my harsh tone. It's not a nice way to converse, don't you agree?

I grand you that your video had some more good points: the left should seek to understand the right, value creates wealth, self made billionaires do exist, value creation needs to be rewarded, hierarchies are real etc.

However, and I am going to make an additional point here, how much more a CEO for example gets compensated more than his/her employees is, as you point out in your video, relative. We agree. You seem to make the point that that justifies the current level of inequality. No, I would argue that it has gone way out of hand and that people havng to work 2-3 jobs just to make end meet is not tolerable or justified by "value creation" which is relative as well. The determination of the value of goods and services may be best determined through market forces as of now, but it is still a relative system. Furthermore, How the generated profit is split between all actors within a company is completely relative and to a large degree not coupled to market forces. If the CEO or the savings account of the company got 10 percent less of the overall profit but instead this money got addeed to the salary of all workers, they would all have significantly higher standards of living without significantly infringing on the survivabilty of the company or the standard of living of the CEO. That's how out of proportion and radicalized this capitalistic system has become. We don't need communism but simply a less prominent lower class and an uncompromising social security system.

Lastly, I guess I needed to get my objections out for me to cool off and see that the overall video wasn't all that bad. Some points are just indicative of your unconscious biases and blind spots, mainly those mentioned in my original post.

Nothing but love for you, brother. But because that's the case, I am real with you and tell you how I feel and think about your flaws and mistakes (in my humble opinion).

Lastly, you accuse me of gaslighting but gaslight me as part of "the left that can't be taught". how dismissive can you be? I did understand your points quite well as they are not thaaat complex nor hard to understand, I simply disagree with you. You need to be able to tolerate that for yourself at least, if not for me. Cause if you don't, you cannot see where you are mistaken and grow beyond your blindspots and limitations.

Cheers.

Edited October 23, 2022 by Phil777

[Dulinho]

To a large extent, I very much agree with you Phil777.

[Thought Art]

Just started pt 2

[puporing]

Limits of Left Politics aka "Limits of my love". 

Fundamentally most "left politics" boils down to a cry for help/more love one extent or another. Whether "an ask" is considered excessive or not depends on the limit of one's love, and actual limitations of reality (distinction from perceived limitations).

Edited October 23, 2022 by puporing

[Leo Gura]

10 hours ago, Phil777 said:

Some points are just indicative of your unconscious biases and blind spots, mainly those mentioned in my original post.

No, they aren't.

You just expected me to mirror your biases back at you, which I did not do.

You did not understand this video series. Because it was too subtle for you. The bottom line is that you do not understand the value and function of conservativism because you've been brainwash with leftist groupthink. And you are in denial about it.

I keep saying I teach advanced stuff, and you guys keep underestimating that.

Edited October 23, 2022 by Leo Gura

[thepixelmonk]

Largely agree with you Phil. Just don't follow Leo for his political takes and you'll be alright lol.

[Thought Art]

12 hours ago, Phil777 said:

. It's obvious to all of us and you are making a fool of yourself.

Should probably be care to only speak for yourself. 
 

I feel like I’d like to respond to your points and ask questions, etc 

If you re-read your own post do you really feel like you wrote that from a place of integrity?
 

[Thought Art]

11 hours ago, Phil777 said:

Lastly, you accuse me of gaslighting but gaslight me as part of "the left that can't be taught". how dismissive can you be? I did understand your points quite well as they are not thaaat complex nor hard to understand, I simply disagree with you. You need to be able to tolerate that for yourself at least, if not for me. Cause if you don't, you cannot see where you are mistaken and grow beyond your blindspots and limitations.

Cheers.

How do you know you understood his points quite well? Did you ever ask for clarification at any point in this discussion or have you just been telling him how wrong/ right his is after a first watch? 
 

I don’t know everything and I don’t know if Leo is right or wrong or if my interpretation of his is right or wrong. I’m going to approach these last two videos with humility and patience because I am generally left leaning. I sense and intuit a lot of powerful points were made in this video that needs to be integrated with Leo’s other work, and other people’s works.
 

And, maybe you do gaslight throughout your original post if you were to read what you said and rematch it that may be more obvious. Some simple example would be around the spiral and development models. Leo states often in other videos I’d not this one that these models are finite etc… unlike how you portray your interpretation of his absolutist views on them. Not sure if that’s really gaslighting or what. Another example would be saying his ideas aren’t tier 2 and that he’s not even past stage green. Which seems to be, and I maybe wrong… but it seems to me to misunderstand the context of the videos. He’s criticizing the left and discussing the strengths and values, perspectives of stages blue and orange. A normal tier 1 person would not likely be able to reflect on Critisim of his own political leaning. 
 

Personally I’m going to need to sit with the videos and contemplate and self reflect over time. I thought there was a lot of interesting ideas throughout part 1 and 2. It seemed almost grounding.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Thought Art

[Gidiot]

I do love Leo and his wisdom which he freely gives and I freely binge, and I agree with probably 90% of the video... but I definitely don't agree with

"be useful or die"

and human beings know what value is and what isn't objectively and that free markets are fair and don't have influences and biases projected onto them or that they are the perfect system.

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Gidiot said:

"be useful or die"

That's not Leo, that's life.

[Thought Art]

@Gidiot Hehe stop going to work tomorrow onward  and see what happens 

[Phil777]

9 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

No, they aren't.

You just expected me to mirror your biases back at you, which I did not do.

@Leo Gura 

What I expected from you are points that actually see things from a tier 2 perspective with a grounding in love, the sort of conventional form of love, the "I want what's best for you and give you a warm embrace unconditionally" sort of love (that needs to be integrated in green). Maybe that's my mistake. 

I guess this expectation comes from your recent claims to be "coming from tier 2". I see sprinkles of it. I think intellectually you are definitely tier 2 to a large extend. But tier 2 encompasses all areas of development including EQ. Your tier 2 cognition simply gets hijacked by your blocked up emotions, sense of solipsism and self centered spirituality.

You cannot honestly state that most people are inherently lazy and selfish if you have the right understanding of what causes people to develop psyches that manifest such characteristics. There are seldom children that get born in a healthy, growth conducive environment with their needs met and that are loved by both parents, that do not have an insatiable drive for exploration, adventure, expression and "doing things" as well as a ln inherent drive to share and collaborate.

On a different note:

Your body is not fit to sustain higher states of consciousness beyond psychedelics. I can see it. This is my unsubstantiated claim. I admit that. So I don't put a truth label on this but that's my hunch. People who permanently ascend into higher states of consciousness (I have met them, they are incredible to witness), all have beautifully refined bodily structures, posture, craniofacial balance and energetic flow throughout every movement and expression. You see it when you see it. I don't see it with you.

I never felt the need to express these ideas but since you are so quick to dismiss nearly all of humanity as lazy, dumb, worthless pieces of meat that better get up and do the dirty work for their slave masters, I don't feel like you deserve to have your private little, cushy illusion of intellectual supremacy.

Your points were not subtle, they were not too advanced, they were not too complex. These are all straightforward, easy to understand, one dimensional points. Never throughout the video did I have to really think or listen again to what you said to immediately get what your points are saying precisely. It was always like a click. A clear, vivid 3d encapsulation that made perfect sense. Your points were illuminated, dissected and then ultimately scrapped for some salvage.

It's not like you explain complicated quantum mechanics that twist the mind and need to be understood from a creative, subtle, counter intuitive perspective. 

Your reactions only solidified my original post for me. That's honestly so disappointing cause it was not like I was trying to confirm my ideas, get your attention or get a reaction out of you, but what I hoped was some clarification or even admitting when you were wrong.

For example the vegan point: why don't you admit that your "calories" argument is wrong? It is. It's simply and factually is false. "How do you know that?" Science, biology, human physiology, nutrition science, direct experience. That's how.

Why is that so hard?

I think I am done here. I will now take a break from this channel for 6 months. I'll check in again once I have unwired my neurology from this echo chamber. I have been here (the yt channel) since I was 16. Now I am turning 25 next month. 

It has been a wonderful journey. I just think it is time to leave the nest.

Leo my man, 

I appreciate you dearly and sincerely. You have been one of the most influential people in my entire life, shaping my thinking to be radically open, creative and a tad bit crazy and showing me that there is much, much more to life than I initially thought. 

Your LP Course is one of the best things that has ever happened to me. Incredible value, incredibly unique. For this I am forever thankful.

I'll come back in 6 to 12 months. Hopefully on better terms until then only the best of luck to you Leo and to everyone here on the forum.

Never give up on your deepest desires, your deepest passions, never give up on forgiveness, compassion and love. It's all within you. You just have to believe and trust. The universe will support you. Let's keep kicking ass. Let's keep expanding, let's keep on lovin'.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Phil777
Arzneimittelverschreibung

[Phil777]

You will remember who you are.

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Phil777 said:

You cannot honestly state that most people are inherently lazy and selfish if you have the right understanding of what causes people to develop psyches that manifest such characteristics.

Most people are lazy when it comes to the generation of creative value.

And selfish? That doesn't even need defending.

No one is forcing you to work for a slavemaster. Go start your own business if you are so smart. What you will soon realize is that most people do not have what it takes to succeed in that. And that's not because Jeff Bezos is holding you back.

Quote

On a different note:

Your body is not fit to sustain higher states of consciousness beyond psychedelics. I can see it. This is my unsubstantiated claim. I admit that. So I don't put a truth label on this but that's my hunch. People who permanently ascend into higher states of consciousness (I have met them, they are incredible to witness), all have beautifully refined bodily structures, posture, craniofacial balance and energetic flow throughout every movement and expression. You see it when you see it. I don't see it with you.

You got a lot of spiritual fantasies.

Those people you worship do not even know what God is. And neither will you if you keep following them like an ape.

Quote

It's not like you explain complicated quantum mechanics that twist the mind and need to be understood from a creative, subtle, counter intuitive perspective.

Politics is more complicated than QM because your mind is so filled with groupthink and bias.

Quote

Your reactions only solidified my original post for me.

Of course they do. Because you started as a stuborn mule and you ended as one. Nothing surprising there. To learn something new you actually have to think in new ways.

Quote

For example the vegan point: why don't you admit that your "calories" argument is wrong? It is. It's simply and factually is false. "How do you know that?" Science, biology, human physiology, nutrition science, direct experience. That's how.

Why is that so hard?

Organic fruits and veggies are more expensive per calorie than meat.

Yeah, junk refined carbs are cheap. But they are empty calories that make people obese.

It's not just about cost, it's about cost relative to holistic health.

If all I cared about was cost I would tell you to eat a bag of sugar every day. Technically vegan. Have fun with that.

The fact that you got hung up on this point out of everything I said just shows how unserious you were in listening.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Thought Art]

@Leo Gura Maybe If like 50-70% of crops didn’t go to feeding live stock veggies could be cheaper…. Historically meat was for the affluent. The amount of meat we it today is a luxury. I’ve read that some poorer countries do eat less meat and more beans and legumes for protein and calories because they can’t afford meat ecologically or financially.

 

The above statements are also culturally relative. Obviously some cultures like the Inuit up north are a of animal fat and protein as a staple because that’s all they had. Same for people living in some harsh African environments who have not developed agricultural systems.
 

Pt 2 was really good I think. I felt like I learned a lot and you make some things I’d been thinking about, but wasn’t sure about because it went against my left narratives I tell myself. I would often feel a bit confused because I considered myself left and progressive but when I would see the limits of left politics and share that with people on the left I would get attacked quite often. It was for this reason I also spend a lot of time by myself because I don’t feel like I fit in on either sides of this spectrum and I have a lot of work to do. 

Edited October 24, 2022 by Thought Art

[Leo Gura]

12 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

Maybe If like 50-70% of crops didn’t go to feeding live stock veggies could be cheaper….

I doubt that.

Growing and transporting fresh fruits and veggies is just expensive. And their calorie count is relatively low.

Quote

Historically meat was for the affluent. The amount of meat we it today is a luxury.

Yes

However meat is a lot cheaper these days.

Quote

I’ve read that some poorer countries do eat less meat and more beans and legumes for protein and calories because they can’t afford meat ecologically or financially.

Of course meat is relatively expensive compared to starchy carbs.

But meat is also very filling and meat is wired into the cuisine of virtually every culture. Vegans are in denial about that reality.

When you are talking about ending meat, you are literally talking about destroying culture. Which is why it pisses people off so much.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Leo Gura

[integral]

Consider that there is no need to agree or disagree. Agreeing and disagreeing is a game and a distraction from actually getting anywhere.

True or False isnt happening anywhere. It’s just another perspective some guy is hallucinating.

Edited October 24, 2022 by integral

[Thought Art]

@Leo Gura I find the topic of food, culture, nutrition, economics, ecology and history and how these intertwine in the understanding of what to eat and why to be very murky and confusing. 
 

I don’t know the truth on veganism.but, it definitely is destroying a culture. Things also change in reality all the time. 
 

I went through a phase of wanting to push veganism. 
 

however now I am more focused on being ant based. And letting others do as they want