A Summary of CSJoseph's "What is Extraverted Thinking"

[Dryas]

@Carl-Richard @JuliusCaesar
 

The best explanations for the functions and typology come from this channel imo: 

https://m.youtube.com/c/Talkingwithfamouspeople

The problem is you’re gonna have to dig through hours of bs to find the gold. It’ll be time consuming but it was fun and worth it for me. 

[JuliusCaesar]

9 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

WHAT?!?!?!  He's literally openly a creationist.  He talks about jesus and shit in most of his videos and openly ridicules and rejects all ideas of evolution.

CSJ has a highly metaphorical nonliteral understanding of Jesus. Which is something that to some extent even he doesn't know about himself. And could you define "evolution". I would assume you're referring to Darwinian Macroevolution or Abiogenesis, but I don't want to put my foot in my mouth there.

 

14 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

2. Yes I'm aware of the 4 sides of the mind.  I'm an ENTP with an INTJ cognitive focus, which should make me an expert at analysing CSJoseph as he claims to be exactly this. 

Isn't that exactly what CSJ claims to be? Or does he say he has an ISFJ subconscious focus? Also, I'm surprised you didn't correct my mistake earlier when I said ENTP's have an ISFJ Superego, ENTP's have an ESFP superego.

 

 

16 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

Basically.. Ni/Ne = abstraction + future focus.  The differences are:

Reduction vs expansion

Surviving vs thriving

The one vs the many

THE outcome vs potential outcomes

THE future vs potential futures

THE use case vs the use cases

 

I see we have a contradiction in semantics. CSJ is using different definitions for the same terms than you it would seem. Or maybe not. Could you give some examples of how these very vague concepts apply? For instance, can you provide an example of Reduction in Ni, and expansion in Ne? 

 

Also, many of your definitions are actually the same as CSJ's. For example, "The one vs the many" essentially sums up how CSJ thinks of Ni hero vs Ne Nemesis.

 

19 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

I couldn't believe that you watched his video and then transcribed it for him for free.

Then the reality of what I am in your understanding is impossible.

 

Also I didn't transcribe much of anything, I merely summarized what he said in my own words. That is to say if you read what I've written, and also watched his video. You'd find that you learn 100% the same things but reading my article was faster.

20 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

What type values "experience" more than any other type?  What type do you picture as the "surfer dude"?  ESTP.  Yet they're Se users.  Se might include CS's definition, but on its own it's completely wrong.

Lol, that's perfectly consistent with everything CSJ says. Well, CSJ might imagine ESFP's as being the surfer dude. Whereas the ESTP is the badass alpha male loudmouth whose probably your local mechanic, or someone like Becker.

 

ESTP's would probably like to surf also though. The two types are very similar since they share half of the same cognitive priorities.

 

22 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

Se and Si are both about experience, but Se is just experience with an outward focus.

Are you sure you're not CSJoseph yourself? I fail to see any difference between this and his understanding of Se vs Si.

 

25 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

1. Uhm, I'm kinda the MBTI consultant on this forum?  Of course I'll know my own MBTI.

Where did you learn MBTI? 

 

 

[JuliusCaesar]

23 minutes ago, Dryas said:

@Carl-Richard @JuliusCaesar
 

The best explanations for the functions and typology come from this channel imo: 

https://m.youtube.com/c/Talkingwithfamouspeople

The problem is you’re gonna have to dig through hours of bs to find the gold. It’ll be time consuming but it was fun and worth it for me. 

I'm fairly certain that CSJ accuses them of making errors. So, it might be interesting to summarize videos of that lol.

[Dryas]

13 minutes ago, JuliusCaesar said:

I'm fairly certain that CSJ accuses them of making errors. So, it might be interesting to summarize videos of that lol.

I mean, give the guy a chance before you summarize a video critiquing him lol. Maybe watch the video where he says csj isn't entp or some videos of him where he's typing actual people cuz you'll learn about his model/approach through that.

[thisintegrated]

40 minutes ago, JuliusCaesar said:

Isn't that exactly what CSJ claims to be? Or does he say he has an ISFJ subconscious focus?

He claims to be what I am (except he'd probably claim to be Orange, if he knew anything about Spiral Dynamics).

 

Quote

Also, I'm surprised you didn't correct my mistake earlier when I said ENTP's have an ISFJ Superego, ENTP's have an ESFP superego.

I assumed you meant the subconscious.

 

40 minutes ago, JuliusCaesar said:

CSJ has a highly metaphorical nonliteral understanding of Jesus

He does not.  He takes most Christian ideas literally.  His dad was like a priest or something, don't recall exactly.

 

40 minutes ago, JuliusCaesar said:

Or maybe not. Could you give some examples of how these very vague concepts apply? For instance, can you provide an example of Reduction in Ni, and expansion in Ne? 

So someone invests an "engine".  Ni says "we will use this to make cars", Ne says "we will use this to make cars, planes, trains, electric skateboards, ships, etc."

Ni is right that the revolution will take place in the form of the car, but is blind to the other possibilities.

Ne is less practical and less focused, but sees further into the future than Ni and is more aware of the where the technology can be taken.

 

Quote

Also, many of your definitions are actually the same as CSJ's. For example, "The one vs the many" essentially sums up how CSJ thinks of Ni hero vs Ne Nemesis.

Yeah he's got a decent MBTI foundation and some good theories, but he takes them too seriously and could never consider the possibility of his definitions/understanding being wrong, which is why after a decade of studying MBTI he's not made much progress.

 

40 minutes ago, JuliusCaesar said:

Lol, that's perfectly consistent with everything CSJ says. Well, CSJ might imagine ESFP's as being the surfer dude. Whereas the ESTP is the badass alpha male loudmouth whose probably your local mechanic, or someone like Becker.

Mechanics are ISTPs and occasionally ISTJs.  Very rarely ESTPs.

ESTPs are gamers, streamers, surfers, racers, basically all athletes, most gym guys, guys who go fishing while drinking beers, most florida guys, most motorsport guys, most food youtubers, gardeners enjoying the outside air and sun (really just Se people), people who often go for walks in nature (again really just Se like ISFPs).  They care about the experience more than any other type.  CSJ would just say they want to give others an experience, but that's BS, they don't give a fuck about that, for the most part.

 

Quote

ESTP's would probably like to surf also though. The two types are very similar since they share half of the same cognitive priorities

The ESTPs are the ones who'd invite those other types to surf, not the other way around.

 

40 minutes ago, JuliusCaesar said:

Are you sure you're not CSJoseph yourself? I fail to see any difference between this and his understanding of Se vs Si.

LOL, he does not deserve the ENTP title.

 

40 minutes ago, JuliusCaesar said:

Where did you learn MBTI? 

Every source that exists, basically.

Debating people on Reddit, studying socionics, studying every other cognitive model, looking at every MBTI chart/meme, chatting to people about MBTI, talking to lots of types, listening to MBTI youtubers, looking through thousands of types on personalityDB, reading articles, debating people carl on this forum, talking about it with people irl, etc.

And all that over several years.

Edited October 24, 2022 by thisintegrated

[JuliusCaesar]

2 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

I assumed you meant the subconscious.

Mental autocorrect I guess. Yes, that's what I meant.

 

2 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

He takes most Christian ideas literally.

So? Atheists take Christian ideas literally, does that make Atheists Christians?

 

3 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

His dad was like a priest or something, don't recall exactly.

If in fact CSJ's understanding of his own mind is correct, then his Fe child would obviously inherit the moral values of Christian upbringing.

 

3 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

So someone invests an "engine".  Ni says "we will use this to make cars", Ne says "we will use this to make cars, planes, trains, electric skateboards, ships, etc."

Okay, so it is indeed a semantical difference. Under CSJ's definitions. "we will" is always Ne, because Ni deals with the future of the self, whereas Ne deals with the collective future or in other words what others want to/are going to do.

 

However, there is some overlap between your concept of Ni/Ne and his. In that, under CSJ's definitions, Ne deals with all possible futures, whereas Ni only deals with the one way forward for the self.

 

With that being said, I fail to see any actual difference between your definitions and CSJ's, other than you seem to think that there is such a difference.

 

6 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

Ni is right that the revolution will take place in the form of the car, but is blind to the other possibilities.

Ne is less practical and less focused, but sees further into the future than Ni and is more aware of the where the technology can be taken.

This could be interpreted many different ways. But it would seem you're trying to say the same things CSJ is without admitting that you agree with him. I say this because, if CSJ were evaluating let's say how an INTJ (Ni hero) looks at this vs how an ENTP(Ne Hero, INTJ's unconscious counterpart) looks at it, he would probably agree on that specific basis.

 

8 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

The ESTPs are the ones who'd invite those other types to surf, not the other way around.

Yeah, this just looks like more of CSJ's understanding of Se users, especially high Se users such as ESTPs and ESFPs. And an Si user like an ISTJ, or ESFJ would seem to be the one most likely to say yes. Though other Se users can of course agree to go surfing because they have Si in their unconscious.

 

10 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

Every source that exists, basically.

And yet by your own admission you're largely unaware of CSJ's material. When many pay him to teach them Jungian Analytical Psychology. Of which I happen not to be in case you were curious about that.

 

11 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

debating people carl on this forum

Well, at least someone tries to take on the "MBTI consultant of the forum". No offense intended, but I mean really, are you getting paid to do this? The way you speak about yourself makes me feel like you do.

 

12 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

And all that over several years.

I assume you did that not as a career but as something on the side.

 

30 minutes ago, Dryas said:

Maybe watch the video where he says csj isn't entp or some videos of him where he's typing actual people cuz you'll learn about his model/approach through that.

I recall from long ago I saw a CSJ video where he responds to exactly the video you're referencing. So, I've already watched at least part of it, but it was a long time ago and of course CSJ didn't play the whole thing but only the parts he thought he needed to rebut.

[thisintegrated]

17 minutes ago, JuliusCaesar said:

So? Atheists take Christian ideas literally, does that make Atheists Christians?

Difference is he actually believes them.

 

17 minutes ago, JuliusCaesar said:

If in fact CSJ's understanding of his own mind is correct, then his Fe child would obviously inherit the moral values of Christian upbringing.

Not how Fe works.  It's about feelings and values, not beliefs.  I couldn't care less what my family wants me to believe.

 

17 minutes ago, JuliusCaesar said:

Okay, so it is indeed a semantical difference. Under CSJ's definitions. "we will" is always Ne, because Ni deals with the future of the self, whereas Ne deals with the collective future or in other words what others want to/are going to do.

 

However, there is some overlap between your concept of Ni/Ne and his. In that, under CSJ's definitions, Ne deals with all possible futures, whereas Ni only deals with the one way forward for the self.

 

With that being said, I fail to see any actual difference between your definitions and CSJ's, other than you seem to think that there is such a difference.

wtf, you fail to see the difference?  CSJ says Ni deals with the self.  I say Ni deals with others, or anyone, doesn't matter.  I don't see how you concluded "one possibility for the engine" was referring to "possibility for your self".  Do you identify as an engine?

"Ne deals with the collective future or in other words what others want to/are going to do"

Again nothing like what I said.  "Who" is completely irrelevant.  Ne applies to single objects or single people just like Ni.

 

Ne = "I can become a pilot, or a programmer, or a chef".  

Ne = "They can become pilots, or programmers, or chefs".  

Ne = "That rock over there can become a pilot, or a programmer, or a chef".  

Ne = "Those rocks over there can become pilots, or programmers, or chefs".  

 

Ni = "I will become a pilot".  

Ni = "They will become pilots".  

Ni = "That rock over there will become a pilot".  

Ni = "Those rocks over there will become pilots".  

 

 

17 minutes ago, JuliusCaesar said:

This could be interpreted many different ways. But it would seem you're trying to say the same things CSJ is without admitting that you agree with him

omg I don't agree with him!

 

Edited October 24, 2022 by thisintegrated

[thisintegrated]

25 minutes ago, JuliusCaesar said:

And yet by your own admission you're largely unaware of CSJ's material. When many pay him to teach them Jungian Analytical Psychology. Of which I happen not to be in case you were curious about that.

I've seen hundreds of hours of his videos.

 

25 minutes ago, JuliusCaesar said:

Well, at least someone tries to take on the "MBTI consultant of the forum". No offense intended, but I mean really, are you getting paid to do this? The way you speak about yourself makes me feel like you do.

I get paid as much as Carl does to mod.

 

25 minutes ago, JuliusCaesar said:

I assume you did that not as a career but as something on the side.

Well, tbh Leo's been stingy with the pay lately..

So yeah, I consider it as something on the side.

Edited October 24, 2022 by thisintegrated

[Asayake]

I think Talking with famous people is an ENTP. 

I think CSJ is an ENTJ. He's smoking a cigar and has a similar talking style like my ENTJ friend. The two people I know who smoke cigars is an ENTJ and an ESTP.

CSJ typed Talking with famous people as an ESTP. Talking with famous people typed CSJ as an ESTJ. I think they're both somewhat dishonest with their typing of eachother and doing it mostly to annoy eachother. But I think ESTP is closer to Talking with famous people than ESTJ is to CSJ. But I still think they're both just trolling eachother, which I don't necessarily like. It would be nice if two of the most prominent voices on MBTI took their roles a bit more seriously.

I have watched a lot of both their channels and they both have some golden content as well as some flaws. I bought the CSJ premium INFP content and was not impressed with it, I feel he doesn't like INFPs and sadly it shines through in the premium content. Some of it was insightful but some of it was just downright hurtful and didn't feel like it was well intentioned.

The premium content is mostly a lot of rambling about how INFPs are the biggest problem with mankind and how basically the only actualized INFPs are Robert Greene and Keanu Reeves. The premium content was not very relateable for me. However, I did find a lot of the content on his YouTube channel very valuable, probably more so than Talking with famous people.

Talking with famous people although very theoretically knowledgeable on MBTI, is just too high for his own good all the time. He seems to me like he's a tormented soul dealing with repressed emotions. He's doing multiple bong rips in the middle of his typing session and typing people way too confidently, just to later completely retype them when they do a retyping session. Some of his typing sessions are good but in some of them he just goes for too many bong rips and as a fairly experienced weed smoker I can tell when he gets too high to properly type. It feels irresponsible to me. Some of his typing sessions I think his typing felt way off. With that being said he too has his nuggets of gold on his channel. But man he should really stop getting super blazed when typing people live. I think he doesn't have a healthy relationship with weed or drugs in general, being that he also made a drug tier list where he if I recall correctly recommended people to try opiates and meth.

[JuliusCaesar]

49 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

wtf, you fail to see the difference?  CSJ says Ni deals with the self.  I say Ni deals with others, or anyone, doesn't matter.  I don't see how you concluded "one possibility for the engine" was referring to "possibility for your self".  Do you identify as an engine?

"Ne deals with the collective future or in other words what others want to/are going to do"

Again nothing like what I said.  "Who" is completely irrelevant.  Ne applies to single objects or single people just like Ni.

Okay so it is in fact correct that you're using different definitions to CSJ.

 

49 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

Ne = "I can become a pilot, or a programmer, or a chef".  

Ne = "They can become pilots, or programmers, or chefs".  

Ne = "That rock over there can become a pilot, or a programmer, or a chef".  

Ne = "Those rocks over there can become pilots, or programmers, or chefs".  

 

Ni = "I will become a pilot".  

Ni = "They will become pilots".  

Ni = "That rock over there will become a pilot".  

Ni = "Those rocks over there will become pilots".  

These are superfluous differences. You might as well just use one Intuition function and forget about Extraverted vs Intraverted. Extraverted means aimed towards others, whereas intraverted means aimed at the self. CSJ's definitions make sense, yours do not, as they have no meaning whatsoever.

 

To clarify, there isn't any meaningful difference between the specifics and non specifics here. Furthermore, these minor differences have nothing to do with the definitons of Extraverted and Intraverted anyway. If you wanted to use these concepts, it would make more sense to call it General Intuition and Specific Intuition.

 

45 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

I've seen hundreds of hours of his videos.

I find that hard to believe. Which videos specifically have you "seen"?

 

46 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

I get paid as much as Carl does to mod.

I don't know how much Carl is paid. But okay.

 

46 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

So yeah, I consider it as something on the side.

That means you have a career elsewhere that takes up more of your time right?

 

56 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

omg I don't agree with him!

Perhaps you don't accept his definitions of Ne and Ni. But you do seem to accept his understanding of Se vs Si.

 

 

[thisintegrated]

9 hours ago, JuliusCaesar said:

That means you have a career elsewhere that takes up more of your time right?

I do.  But I make money from just hanging around the forum.

 

9 hours ago, JuliusCaesar said:

Okay so it is in fact correct that you're using different definitions to CSJ.

Yes, like I was saying all along.

 

9 hours ago, JuliusCaesar said:

These are superfluous differences. You might as well just use one Intuition function and forget about Extraverted vs Intraverted. Extraverted means aimed towards others, whereas intraverted means aimed at the self. CSJ's definitions make sense, yours do not, as they have no meaning whatsoever.

 

To clarify, there isn't any meaningful difference between the specifics and non specifics here. Furthermore, these minor differences have nothing to do with the definitons of Extraverted and Intraverted anyway. If you wanted to use these concepts, it would make more sense to call it General Intuition and Specific Intuition.

..how are they superfluous?

How is reductionist the same as expansionist?

They're opposites.

Ni people will decide on one outcome and say anyone who's considering other possibilities is stupid.

Ni will say "electric cars are nonsense! Impossible!", "drones will never be able to do deliveries!".

Ne will do the opposite and love exploring these possibilities.

Edited October 24, 2022 by thisintegrated

[Carl-Richard]

8 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

Ni will say "electric cars are nonsense! Impossible!", "drones will never be able to do deliveries!".

Ne will do the opposite and love exploring these possibilities.

Will coming up with justifications for why electric cars are nonsense be considered an expansive movement?

[thisintegrated]

7 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Will coming up with justifications for why electric cars are nonsense be considered an expansive movement?

It would still be in service of their reductionist ideas.  The closest they'd get to having "expansive movement" is using their Te to back up their Ni. Te openly looks for outside logic.

[JuliusCaesar]

4 hours ago, thisintegrated said:

..how are they superfluous?

How is that not obvious to you? What use is there in distinguishing between Generality and Specificity of phrases?

 

4 hours ago, thisintegrated said:

How is reductionist the same as expansionist?

They're opposites.

Fine, the point I'm making is that these are silly distinctions you need not bother to make. 

 

4 hours ago, thisintegrated said:

Ni people will decide on one outcome and say anyone who's considering other possibilities is stupid.

Well yeah, I mean CSJ would agree especially when it comes to INFJ's and even INTJ's to some extent, though the Ti critic/Te Parent of the INTJ might allow more room for accepting the ideas/logic of others than the INFJ's Te trickster/Ti Child. Just as the Fe Parent/Fi Critic of the INFJ would allow for more use of ethics in their judgment.

 

4 hours ago, thisintegrated said:

Ne will do the opposite and love exploring these possibilities.

Again, the only validity I see in your thoughts stems from your partial application of CSJ's definitions. Of course, an ENTP or ENFP will tend to behave like this, that's just the nature of high Ne. Heck, even their introverted counterparts do it just maybe not so aggressively.

 

You still haven't explained why you reject CSJ's definitions. He literally uses Extraversion vs Introversion the same way every psychologist has for like a century. Whereas you're using your own contrived definitions, and the value in them I have yet to see.

Edited October 24, 2022 by JuliusCaesar

[Loba]

19 hours ago, Asayake said:

Talking with famous people although very theoretically knowledgeable on MBTI, is just too high for his own good all the time. He seems to me like he's a tormented soul dealing with repressed emotions. He's doing multiple bong rips in the middle of his typing session and typing people way too confidently, just to later completely retype them when they do a retyping session. Some of his typing sessions are good but in some of them he just goes for too many bong rips and as a fairly experienced weed smoker I can tell when he gets too high to properly type. It feels irresponsible to me. Some of his typing sessions I think his typing felt way off. With that being said he too has his nuggets of gold on his channel. But man he should really stop getting super blazed when typing people live. I think he doesn't have a healthy relationship with weed or drugs in general, being that he also made a drug tier list where he if I recall correctly recommended people to try opiates and meth.

I used to talk to him pretty frequently.  We were friends for a while.  I care about him a lot and feel he has a lot of value to add to the MBTI community.  I just look past his drug usage because I don't feel that people's habits are really my business.  He also cares for and treats his girlfriend very kindly and got her the help she needed, if you're a decent person he is pretty open and genuine, albeit sometimes a bit feisty.  

He has strong ADHD and I think he uses things to self-medicate this condition.  I asked him at one point and that is what he told me.  He doesn't really seem to be all that tormented, tbh, more like he works through things and just lets it roll off his back.  He's an ENTP and I gotta be honest, not a lot of ENTP's are tormented.  They tend to think through everything and come to conclusions on stuff before really letting it get to them emotionally and if it does, it doesn't really stick around for very long.

I prefer him over CSJ.

19 hours ago, Asayake said:

I bought the CSJ premium INFP content and was not impressed with it, I feel he doesn't like INFPs and sadly it shines through in the premium content. Some of it was insightful but some of it was just downright hurtful and didn't feel like it was well intentioned.

The premium content is mostly a lot of rambling about how INFPs are the biggest problem with mankind and how basically the only actualized INFPs are Robert Greene and Keanu Reeves. The premium content was not very relateable for me.

How can we be the biggest problem with mankind?  I mean, most of us are kind of lazy and sit in the back of the class.  If you're going to look at who's generally a ruthless dictator that kills millions, or a psychopath who butchers his victims, or a CEO that owns a business that is destroying the planet - it's not going to be the INFP.

Maybe he considers vulnerability at the expense of self-actualization a problem?  Like, rather than being functional in the sense of active output in the real world, most of our value lies in working in the realm of emotion, what's good/bad, spiritual growth and so forth.  INFP's are generally the ones rescuing animals, parenting little kids, trying to tend to their emotions/values/spirituality. 

If he has a problem with INFP's then this probably means he has a shadow with the feminine, as the INFP type is the most feminine - esp. if they are women.  If you don't know how to handle women, an INFP might not be the best type.  I used to talk to his ex and she did have some stories about him...

But I mean, he's the one with the fancy white board so what do I know? 

[JuliusCaesar]

28 minutes ago, Loba said:

How can we be the biggest problem with mankind?  I mean, most of us are kind of lazy and sit in the back of the class.  If you're going to look at who's generally a ruthless dictator that kills millions, or a psychopath who butchers his victims, or a CEO that owns a business that is destroying the planet - it's not going to be the INFP.

Maybe he considers vulnerability at the expense of self-actualization a problem?  Like, rather than being functional in the sense of active output in the real world, most of our value lies in working in the realm of emotion, what's good/bad, spiritual growth and so forth.  INFP's are generally the ones rescuing animals, parenting little kids, trying to tend to their emotions/values/spirituality. 

If he has a problem with INFP's then this probably means he has a shadow with the feminine, as the INFP type is the most feminine - esp. if they are women.  If you don't know how to handle women, an INFP might not be the best type.  I used to talk to his ex and she did have some stories about him...

But I mean, he's the one with the fancy white board so what do I know? 

To be fair to @Asayake  I have an INFP cousin who loves nothing more than to smoke weed and play video games. I am not criticizing him mind you, I'm just saying that he values these things very highly that's obviously a fact. However, he also frames houses and is thus a productive member of society. All because his ENTJ father my uncle who owns a roofing company hired and trained him (Se child/Ni Parent of ENTJ in synchronicity with the Si child/ Ne Parent of the INFP). 

 

So, in the example of my cousin, you could criticize him for his creature habits, which of course is something I do not personally do. Or you could praise him for contributing to society. So, both of you are right in some sense I would I say.

[Asayake]

2 hours ago, Loba said:

I used to talk to him pretty frequently.  We were friends for a while.  I care about him a lot and feel he has a lot of value to add to the MBTI community.  I just look past his drug usage because I don't feel that people's habits are really my business.  He also cares for and treats his girlfriend very kindly and got her the help she needed, if you're a decent person he is pretty open and genuine, albeit sometimes a bit feisty.  

He has strong ADHD and I think he uses things to self-medicate this condition.  I asked him at one point and that is what he told me.  He doesn't really seem to be all that tormented, tbh, more like he works through things and just lets it roll off his back.  He's an ENTP and I gotta be honest, not a lot of ENTP's are tormented.  They tend to think through everything and come to conclusions on stuff before really letting it get to them emotionally and if it does, it doesn't really stick around for very long.

I prefer him over CSJ.

How can we be the biggest problem with mankind?  I mean, most of us are kind of lazy and sit in the back of the class.  If you're going to look at who's generally a ruthless dictator that kills millions, or a psychopath who butchers his victims, or a CEO that owns a business that is destroying the planet - it's not going to be the INFP.

Maybe he considers vulnerability at the expense of self-actualization a problem?  Like, rather than being functional in the sense of active output in the real world, most of our value lies in working in the realm of emotion, what's good/bad, spiritual growth and so forth.  INFP's are generally the ones rescuing animals, parenting little kids, trying to tend to their emotions/values/spirituality. 

If he has a problem with INFP's then this probably means he has a shadow with the feminine, as the INFP type is the most feminine - esp. if they are women.  If you don't know how to handle women, an INFP might not be the best type.  I used to talk to his ex and she did have some stories about him...

But I mean, he's the one with the fancy white board so what do I know? 

Hmm. I might have been a bit harsh to Talking with famous people. I do like ENTPs overall and I tend to like weed smokers, I have been one myself in the past. One of my best friends is an ENTP and Talking with famous people has that same ENTP charm that makes him very likeable. But it still does bother me a bit that he does multiple bong hits while typing people, because it seems to me like he genuinely gets sucker punched high in some of those typing sessions. But seeing that he comes from a background of doing harder drugs I guess the weed is a healthier coping mechanism. It's just a bit unethical in my mind if his heavy weed use results in mistyping clients who have paid for typing sessions. I like his girlfriend, she reminds me a lot of my sister.

Regarding CSJ, his argument for INFPs being the biggest problem is that he thinks INFP is the smartest(most brilliant is how he puts it) out of all the types and that they can save the world but that they are too lazy to the point that they're wasted potential and stuck in idealism. This seems to make CSJ very upset. I get his argument but I feel like he doesn't communicate it in a good way in his premium content. When I watched the premium content it just made me feel bad without getting much insight at all. He was also repeating himself a lot. Over and over he is alternating between talking about how disgusting it is that INFPs are so lazy and how Robert Greene is the greatest human being of our time.

What CSJ doesn't seem to comprehend is that the laziness is a coping mechanism for dealing with being an INFP. It isn't so easy all the time. I wish he could be a bit more understanding in his content.

Edited October 25, 2022 by Asayake

[Loba]

2 hours ago, Asayake said:

Hmm. I might have been a bit harsh to Talking with famous people. I do like ENTPs overall and I tend to like weed smokers, I have been one myself in the past. One of my best friends is an ENTP and Talking with famous people has that same ENTP charm that makes him very likeable. But it still does bother me a bit that he does multiple bong hits while typing people, because it seems to me like he genuinely gets sucker punched high in some of those typing sessions. But seeing that he comes from a background of doing harder drugs I guess the weed is a healthier coping mechanism. It's just a bit unethical in my mind if his heavy weed use results in mistyping clients who have paid for typing sessions. I like his girlfriend, she reminds me a lot of my sister.

Yeah he is really sweet.  Back in 2019-2020 when I would visit my family every week I would get panic attacks on the bus and would sit and watch his streams and him and his friends really helped me out a lot.  He also helped his family out - the dad recently died and mom is in nursing care.  He's good with his family/girl and so this tells me he's a decent person.  He also was a good debate teacher that valued free thinking and autonomy.  

He probably could lighten up on the weed a bit, but again, it's not my call.  I just know him from interacting with him a lot on a personal basis and he is a pretty nice guy.

2 hours ago, Asayake said:

Regarding CSJ, his argument for INFPs being the biggest problem is that he thinks INFP is the smartest(most brilliant is how he puts it) out of all the types and that they can save the world but that they are too lazy to the point that they're wasted potential and stuck in idealism. This seems to make CSJ very upset. I get his argument but I feel like he doesn't communicate it in a good way in his premium content. When I watched the premium content it just made me feel bad without getting much insight at all. He was also repeating himself a lot. Over and over he is alternating between talking about how disgusting it is that INFPs are so lazy and how Robert Greene is the greatest human being of our time.

What CSJ doesn't seem to comprehend is that the laziness is a coping mechanism for dealing with being an INFP. It isn't so easy all the time. I wish he could be a bit more understanding in his content.

I don't think we are, although we supposedly hit 3rd smartest in MBTI, I think most are pretty average tbh.  I don't know what he expects with Te in 4th and Ti in 8th, I mean... we are dreamers and idealists.  I feel like just another generic dumbass, to be frank.    INFP can't save the fuckin' world, the best we can do is slide into an already set up system and continue to "dream" from wherever we find ourselves, with maybe a few outliers doing something more with themselves.  IDK why he's putting the responsibility on INFP.

Here's me, "saving the world". ^

He should try living in nothing but dreamland and feels and not a lot of grounding and see how he fairs.   

 

[JuliusCaesar]

10 hours ago, Loba said:

INFP can't save the fuckin' world, the best we can do is slide into an already set up system and continue to "dream" from wherever we find ourselves, with maybe a few outliers doing something more with themselves.  IDK why he's putting the responsibility on INFP.

He doesn't. He puts that responsibility on INFJs. He expects INFPs to save the world through an INFJ, through the lessons and wisdom that INFJ gains in their Ti child and Si Angel/Demon from the INFP.

 

CSJ sees INFPs as the people who control libraries and schools, the people who control who gets censored and who gets a voice. And indeed, people in these positions tend to be INFPs. However, most INFPs probably just want smoke weed and masturbate, or at least maybe CSJ thinks that to some extent. Which probably makes him angry with them. CSJ hates people for the failed potential he sees in them.

[Loba]

49 minutes ago, JuliusCaesar said:

He doesn't. He puts that responsibility on INFJs. He expects INFPs to save the world through an INFJ, through the lessons and wisdom that INFJ gains in their Ti child and Si Angel/Demon from the INFP.

CSJ sees INFPs as the people who control libraries and schools, the people who control who gets censored and who gets a voice. And indeed, people in these positions tend to be INFPs. However, most INFPs probably just want smoke weed and masturbate, or at least maybe CSJ thinks that to some extent. Which probably makes him angry with them. CSJ hates people for the failed potential he sees in them.

I've known a few INFJ's and they struggle just as much as the INFP's just in their own unique ways.  Some I have gotten along with, and some I have not.  When I meet an INFJ, I see someone who doesn't have a sense of self most of the time - they are kind of an environmental amalgamation.  How are you supposed to save the world when you barely even know what you want for yourself/what you like?  They often don't have an identity, they just become "the people" in a literal sense.  That sounds really rough.

If an INFP were to do anything for an INFJ it would be showing them how to have a sense of self, how to not have to blend into the environment in such a way where you lose who you are, but I don't know if that lends anything to helping the world.  Maybe it helps the INFJ.  From what I have found dealing with them is that they do more than INFP's.  The wedge in my INFJ friendships IRL were because I was so stationary in life and they wanted to have more experiences out in the world.  I couldn't keep up with them in the area of self development.  On top of this, I can see into people pretty well and when I realized that they lacked a sense of self, but were more like black holes that brought everything into themselves, they got weird about it.  Like, they both want you to know this about them and to discover this part of themselves - I think they secretly want out of their "black hole", but once you see it, they run away.

Haha, smoke weed.  I used to do that a lot, but it was self medicating mental issues.  I quit it because it was expensive/masking things/I didn't want to be reliant on it/made me stressed when I didn't have it.  Me personally, I have mental health stuff that directly affects executive functioning.  Like, bills, groceries, daily schedules... what even is that?  I don't know.  I can focus intently on one thing at a time, and I'll get pretty far with it, but the constant distraction that life has to offer leaves me in the dark when it comes to basic "adulting".  I might be one of the least developed in some aspects and mid-tier developed in others on this forum.  Very lopsided.

The thing with INFP's is - we love other people, we care, but we wanna do what we wanna do.  What "feels right", and generally, if there are no distractions we can really bore our way into that pretty efficiently.  I think this gives off the illusion that an INFP is more capable than they are.  You see someone who is really excellent at one or two things and people think that can translate to many different scenarios and we're kind of one trick pony's.  On top of this, the INFP is very sensitive.  Emotionally, physically, mentally.  If they are not raised right, they break pretty quickly.  If you want a world of effective INFP's, then you need a restructured society with a system in place that makes sense that tailors to the needs of humanities most sensitive.  I don't know how feasible that is.  Everyone is just doing the best they can to get by.

And on top of that, the more work I do internally, the more I question if doing anything outside of myself has any value at all.  What if I was meant to grow in a certain way inside, and that's it?  That this world didn't really have much to do with it other than facilitating the right moments to fracture my metaphysical bones?  The more I grow, the more I question my sense of control over anything.  It sounds like CSJ is the one who is idealistic.  I mean, I hate to say it, but society is much more chaotic than people want to admit.  We all want to live in the bubble of order, but it's not like that at all.  Maybe all anyone can do is really work on themselves, grow their souls, and the rest will fall into place if people just did that collectively?  "Wasted potential".  It's such a narrow thing.  Who cares if INFP's waste potential?  What about starving children, people in poverty?  I wonder how many Einstein's we've lost due to the luck of the draw - who and where you're located?  You know?  A lot of life revolves around luck.

And maybe... the world isn't meant to be saved?  Maybe we aren't the good guys?