Jen Stoltenberg - 'Putin's win will be a loss for all of NATO'

[mr_engineer]

 

I won't spell out the implications of this statement from him. I will let you folks read between the lines on this one. 

[Leo Gura]

Hasn't this always been obvious?

Yeah, this is a war of Putin vs NATO.

This is like saying a win for Hitler will be a loss for the Allies.

Lol

Edited October 20, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Hello from Russia]

Shit, rockets are on the way to Moscow right? 

[mr_engineer]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Hasn't this always been obvious?

Yeah, this is a war of Putin vs NATO.

This is like saying a win for Hitler will be a loss for the Allies.

Lol

He's making it obvious to those for whom it wasn't obvious, who were rationalizing it otherwise. It's not just buffonery on the part of the Western leadership to 'sanction Russia', it was intentional. Not only is this them intentionally declaring an economic war on Russia and cutting Russia off - it's demonstrably unapologetic. Which means that they will have no moral qualms escalating even further if this doesn't go well for them. 

It's unbelievable that they'd want to show their true colors that blatantly. Because this is a blatant warning to all the useful idiots believing that this was about 'democracy' and 'sovereignty' and not pure egocentrism on NATO's part. If you don't question why NATO would take the loss in Ukraine so personally after what he said, I don't know when you'll do it. 

Edited October 21, 2022 by mr_engineer

[Leo Gura]

Lol

NATO takes it personally because the last time some asshole in Europe started invading his neighbors, 50 million peeps were killed.

[mr_engineer]

@Leo Gura You have to admit that after this, Western diplomacy is out the window. Not only are they not being diplomatic about this, (you'd assume that the West is diplomatically superior to Russia because of their soft-power) they're showing an intent of never being diplomatic about the situation. 

Whether this war escalates or not, now depends on Russian diplomatic efforts. They're the only ones with diplomats on the table at this point. 

[Leo Gura]

Dude, ALL of this is the game of diplomacy. And both sides understand this. Seems like the only one who doesn't understand this game is you.

When Putin talks about nukes, he's playing this game.

When Putin sends in 100,000 troops, he's paying this game.

When Biden says that Putin is a war criminal, he's playing this game.

Edited October 21, 2022 by Leo Gura

[mr_engineer]

30 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Dude, ALL of this is the game of diplomacy. And both sides understand this. Seems like the only one who doesn't understand this game is you.

Please, enlighten me. 

How is doubling down on your egotism, saying that 'It's not their loss, it's OUR loss. And WE will pay you back for it', diplomacy?! How is identifying with someone else's loss a good diplomatic move?! 

As a diplomat, aren't you supposed to stand for something greater than yourself? Aren't you supposed to consider the other side's best-interests and stand for a moral good above you?! Something like peace or harmony?! That's been your narrative as the Western foreign-policy establishment, right?! What the hell is this, then?! 

And understand the reason they're doing this. It's because they're fucking losing!! If they were winning, they'd be singing a totally different tune, as to how virtuous they are and how evil Putin is for promoting the war. And they won because they're on the good side. Why this hypocrisy when they're on the losing side this time?! 

Whether they win or they lose, they're the good side. And, for this reason, the writing is on the wall as far as Western diplomacy is concerned. 

Edited October 21, 2022 by mr_engineer

[mr_engineer]

My only hope for the world now is that the American elite take this loss well. It's a faint hope, cuz you'd expect them to be bad losers. But, American citizens, either pray for your leadership to take it well or leave the US. Cuz they've named the loss as their own. 

[Leo Gura]

23 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

Please, enlighten me. 

How is doubling down on your egotism, saying that 'It's not their loss, it's OUR loss. And WE will pay you back for it', diplomacy?!

The same way that talking about your right to use nuclear weapons is diplomacy.

[mr_engineer]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The same way that talking about your right to use nuclear weapons is diplomacy.

That's a factual statement. Anyone who has nukes can make that statement.

Very different from setting your bad blood in stone like this. 

[Leo Gura]

Notice how hung up you are on this.

Let it go and relax.

Then you can think more clearly.

Edited October 21, 2022 by Leo Gura

[mr_engineer]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Notice how hung up you are on this.

Of course, I'm hung up on it! When NATO openly identifies themselves as being an enemy of Russia, not only does this further justify Putin's invasion - it gives him the justification to escalate even further. It basically proves his point. 

They're not even pretending to be on the side of peace and democracy and harmony anymore. This is a huge wake-up call for the people only believing the US government. 

I don't know about you, but to me, this does not look like good diplomacy. I'd like to be proven wrong on this, cuz if I am, I've been wrong about how de-escalation works for my entire life and I'd really want to learn something about it. 

Edited October 21, 2022 by mr_engineer

[mr_engineer]

This is highly irresponsible diplomacy on their part. 

This opens the door wide open for war-crimes on a level and scale we've never seen before. And we've seen a lot. We've seen what Hitler did, for example.

Prepare yourselves. 

[Leo Gura]

Both NATO and Putin are well aware that they are adversaries. This is nothing new. That's what this whole war is about from day 1.

It's hard to have peace when he invaded a country and keeps bombing it and calling it his.

Edited October 21, 2022 by Leo Gura

[mr_engineer]

Ukraine and Russia have a shared history. The mature thing to do would be to let them do their thing and direct those billions into improving your own economies, which are, quite frankly, struggling. 

NATO loses all humanitarian grounds for intervening in this situation when they identify with Ukraine's problems. If you say that 'We feel sorry for Ukraine, the evil Putin did this to you', I totally understand. But, it's not your loss!! Why take it on?! Especially when, as you mention, Russia is an adversary. 

[no_name]

5 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

Ukraine and Russia have a shared history.

Saying that Ukraine “shares history” with russia is similar to saying that a rape victim shares history with their rapist.

[no_name]

8 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

The mature thing to do would be to let them do their thing and direct those billions into improving your own economies, which are, quite frankly, struggling. 

By letting them do “their thing” you mean russia continuing to flatten out Ukrainian cities and the mass genocide of Ukrainian people?

When you see someone being gang raped on the street, is the “democratic” thing to do is to simply keep walking by “minding your own business”? 

[mr_engineer]

2 minutes ago, no_name said:

When you see someone being gang raped on the street, is the “democratic” thing to do is to simply keep walking by “minding your own business”? 

It's not 'democratic'. But, if the rapist has a nuclear weapon, the best thing in the interest of world peace is to let it happen while it's happening and then strategize deeper as to how to catch them and punish them. And to not yell threats at the rapist when you're not prepared to execute them! 

[no_name]

3 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

It's not 'democratic'. But, if the rapist has a nuclear weapon, the best thing in the interest of world peace is to let it happen while it's happening and then strategize deeper as to how to catch them and punish them. And to not yell threats at the rapist when you're not prepared to execute them! 

So you’re saying the only way out of this situation is to sacrifice the lives of 44 million people? There is just no other way to try and save those lives?