Jen Stoltenberg - 'Putin's win will be a loss for all of NATO'

[mr_engineer]

4 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

Literally the same logic that allowed Hitler to take over half of Europe without any resistance. 

Yeah, but Hitler lost the war, right?! 

And notice how Russia beat the Nazis. Not by outright aggression, but by over-extending them. 

They're doing the same with Ukraine and the West right now. 

6 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

Also, you are from India according to your profile, why don't you mind your own struggling economy instead of worrying about Europe's, lol?

The whole world's economy hangs in the balance here. 

[mr_engineer]

10 minutes ago, no_name said:

So you’re saying the only way out of this situation is to sacrifice the lives of 44 million people? There is just no other way to try and save those lives?

I don't really agree that Russia will kill all the Ukrainian civilians. But, even granting you that, I'd take that over sacrificing billions of lives. 

All of us should be scared of a post-WWIII world, in which the precedent of nuclear attacks has already been set. 

This is our chance to take a clear stand on the issue of nukes. 

Edited October 21, 2022 by mr_engineer

[no_name]

8 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

I don't really agree that Russia will kill all the Ukrainian civilians. But, even granting you that, I'd take that over sacrificing billions of lives. 

All of us should be scared of a post-WWIII world, in which the precedent of nuclear attacks has already been set. 

This is a bit irrelevant, but I noticed Indian people tend to fear monger a lot. They love to talk about doom and gloom scenarios, whine and complain about how bad the world is. Conservatives like doing it too.

Just something cultural I noticed and I see it on this forum a lot too.

Edited October 21, 2022 by no_name

[mr_engineer]

2 minutes ago, no_name said:

Please go worry about that instead of wasting your time bullshitting about something you have no control over.

Well, I have control of what I tell you. And, of course I can't rescue everyone here, they're responsible for their lives. 

5 minutes ago, no_name said:

This is a bit irrelevant, but I noticed Indians tend to fear monger a lot. They love to talk about doom and gloom scenarios, whine and complain.  

Don't be racist. 

[no_name]

1 minute ago, mr_engineer said:

Don't be racist. 

I specifically said it’s a cultural thing in my post so that you don’t call me a racist.

[mr_engineer]

Just now, no_name said:

I specifically said it’s a cultural thing in my post so that you don’t call me a racist.

My bad. I agree. I can assure you that's not what I'm doing. 

I'm analyzing what I believe to be a very important attitude-issue with NATO that could lead to a major catastrophe. So that all of us collectively do something about it. Or at least minimize the damage to ourselves. 

[zurew]

9 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

I'd take that over sacrificing billions of lives. 

All of us should be scared of a post-WWIII world, in which the precedent of nuclear attacks has already been set. 

You are assuming that Russia will stop at conquering Ukraine, but why would Putin stop there? If Putin can see, that he can do whatever he wants (he just need to threaten with nuclear war), then he can use that card whenever he wants to achieve whatever he wants, this is exactly why there are lines that needs to be drawn.

[mr_engineer]

1 minute ago, zurew said:

You are assuming that Russia will stop at conquering Ukraine, but why would Putin stop there? If Putin can see, that he can do whatever he wants (he just need to threaten with nuclear war), then he can use that card whenever he wants to achieve whatever he wants, this is exactly why there are lines that needs to be drawn.

Human systems work non-linearly, not linearly. He could handle Ukraine. But, if he just keeps going, at some point, he'll over-extend! That'll be the chance for competing powers to stop him. 

This is what happened in WWII with the Nazis. 

[no_name]

Just now, mr_engineer said:

Human systems work non-linearly, not linearly. He could handle Ukraine. But, if he just keeps going, at some point, he'll over-extend! That'll be the chance for competing powers to stop him. 

This is what happened in WWII with the Nazis. 

People can’t peacefully watch a whole nation of people being destroyed, ESPECIALLY after we’ve seen the tragedy left behind Nazi Germany. 

[zurew]

17 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

But, if he just keeps going, at some point, he'll over-extend!

What do you mean, he would just over-extend. He can use the same 'nuclear threat' as an excuse to achieve whatever he wants, even if he is severely damaged militarily. - This is why I say that this logic, that oh noo he is threatning with nukes, therefore we need to do whatever he says is not as smart as it first seems.  A line has to be drawn.

[mr_engineer]

10 minutes ago, zurew said:

What do you mean, he would just over-extend. He can use the same 'nuclear threat' as an excuse to achieve whatever he wants, even if he is severely damaged militarily. - This is why I say that this logic, that oh noo he is threatning with nukes, therefore we need to do whatever he says is not as smart as it first seems.  A line has to be drawn.

The West has been harboring hopes of a regime-change in Russia. As long as NATO takes an adversarial stance towards Russia, Putin's position will get stronger, morally. So, that'll hurt the West's cause of Russian regime-change. 

But, if Putin keeps going nuts, his administration will implode. And then the US will have diplomatic opportunities to take him down. 

Even this happened with Hitler, by the way. He lost cuz of internal sabotage. 

Edited October 21, 2022 by mr_engineer

[mr_engineer]

@KH2 I'm not saying that sitting back and doing nothing is the solution. You prepare better. 

And, internal factors were in Russia's favor in WWII. They weren't enough, there was an application of brute-force. But, systemically speaking, over-extension/diplomatic attrition is the way to take down fascist regimes. Cuz logistically, there's a limit to how much a certain administration can control. 

Expansionism and colonialism backfire on the regime, without a doubt. It's just that in this case, there was a history of Ukraine wanting to join NATO and NATO entering Russia through the back-door. Whether this is true or not, a large portion of Russia believes this, which is why the people support him. 

[Danioover9000]

@mr_engineer    Dude, you too heated and triggered to have a normal conversation at this point. Go Netflix and chill, maybe go outside, smell the roses, touch green grass.

   This world situation will resolve itself, without your approval.

[mr_engineer]

15 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@mr_engineer    Dude, you too heated and triggered to have a normal conversation at this point. Go Netflix and chill, maybe go outside, smell the roses, touch green grass.

   This world situation will resolve itself, without your approval.

Don't make it personal. You don't know what I can do for the world. And how important these happenings are for my plans for my life. 

Edited October 21, 2022 by mr_engineer

[Danioover9000]

@mr_engineer

4 hours ago, mr_engineer said:

Don't make it personal. You don't know what I can do for the world. And how important these happenings are for my plans for my life. 

   But you're making it personal to you from the way you write back to most of us. We're indirectly telling you that you're aging faster because of this.

[mr_engineer]

42 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@mr_engineer

   But you're making it personal to you from the way you write back to most of us. We're indirectly telling you that you're aging faster because of this.

You got a problem with me? 

You want to talk shit at me, PM me. This isn't the thread for that. 

[Danioover9000]

@mr_engineer

3 hours ago, mr_engineer said:

You got a problem with me? 

You want to talk shit at me, PM me. This isn't the thread for that. 

   See, like this for example. Now, how am I to conclude that you're not taking this situation personal??? Like I said, Netflix, chill, touch grass, smell rose.

   Also, my opinion on this war, just to not get accused of derailing the thread, is that Ukraine should ideally be a sovereign country, that both the USA and NATO and Russia should treat as a buffer state between them. However, both NATO and the USA and western hemisphere and the Russian country and its eastern hemisphere countries are playing a tug of war at the moment, trying to incrementally gain advantages ever so slowly.

[mr_engineer]

7 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

See, like this for example. Now, how am I to conclude that you're not taking this situation personal??? Like I said, Netflix, chill, touch grass, smell rose.

Again, you're making this about me. And you're assuming that I'm not chilled, that I'm heated. That I'm 'too triggered to have a normal conversation'. How dare you assume that about my sanity?! You are shit-talking me when you say that. 

No more shit-talk against me on this thread, or I report you. You got a problem with me, PM me. I will not tolerate you invalidating what I'm saying by making personal remarks about me. The problem isn't the personal remarks themselves, but the fact that you're using them to discredit what I'm saying. 

Edited October 22, 2022 by mr_engineer

[Blackhawk]

13 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

Ukraine should ideally be a sovereign country, that both the USA and NATO and Russia should treat as a buffer state between them. 

You contradict what you say.

If Ukraine is sovereign, it should be allowed to join whatever side it wants, and not get treated as a buffer state. It should only be treated as a buffer state if it wants that, which it doesn't (smart move).

So if Ukraine wants to join NATO (which it wants. Smart move), it should be allowed to do that, and not be treated as a buffer state.

That is true sovereignty.

If you force them to be a buffer state against their will, you take their sovereignty away.

[Danioover9000]

@Blackhawk

6 hours ago, Blackhawk said:

You contradict what you say.

If Ukraine is sovereign, it should be allowed to join whatever side it wants, and not get treated as a buffer state. It should only be treated as a buffer state if it wants that, which it doesn't (smart move).

So if Ukraine wants to join NATO (which it wants. Smart move), it should be allowed to do that, and not be treated as a buffer state.

That is true sovereignty.

If you force them to be a buffer state against their will, you take their sovereignty away.

    What do you mean I contradict what I say? Where has my take contradicted?

   Can you explain to me why the following you said is a 'smart move' for Ukraine from your point of view:

becoming a sovereign country,

and a buffer state,

not choosing to become a buffer state,

and choosing to join NATO,

while either choosing to or not to be a buffer state? Is being a buffer state a choice? And why did you leave out the other possibilities of:

Ukraine joining Russia instead of NATO?

Ukraine joining with China?

Ukraine joining and making additional treaties and alliances with other foreign countries? Like with the USA? Or some other country?

 

   Also, what is a true sovereign state to you?

   What if becoming a buffer state is by survival, and not by choice?

Edited October 22, 2022 by Danioover9000