Can we have an honest discussion about race?

[something_else]

53 minutes ago, thepixelmonk said:

We are asking you to expand further on the various bits of vague nonsense you have alluded to and you seem completely unable to do so

He can’t expand because he knows his arguments are based on nothing but bias. He’s resorting to deflection and distraction to avoid expanding on his main points with anything concrete

Quote

It's the same story with about 50% of you.  Your responses show laziness and lack of willingness to consider my position without already previously dismissing it.  

You have given us nothing to consider. Your argument is essentially “I believe this, isn’t it just so obvious”

You are the lazy one who is unwilling to substantiate your claims with anything, not everyone else for dismissing your arguments until you actually give something remotely concrete

The burden of proof is squarely on you, no one has to take anything you say seriously until that requirement is fulfilled

[trenton]

On 10/24/2022 at 6:19 PM, Heart of Space said:

Nutrition differences most certainly do not account for 100% of the difference in intelligence between Americans and Japanese.  Just pretend that there is a pie chart of all the variables, nutrition being one part.  Genes play a role here too, probably also cultural and behavioral differences surrounding academics.  Although, I'd argue adopting more disciplined cultural norms in general is a symptom of innate higher intelligence, probably due to superior genes.   

@Heart of Space

I think the reason people are getting fired up at you is because of your stance on innate intelligence. This was used by racist people throughout history to justify things like slavery through arguing that blacks are animals. Maybe you don't mean to come off that way. On a deeper level this debate is about nature vs. Nurture. Given the inequality between blacks and whites throughout history, most on this forum understandably argue that nurture is the greatest cause for these differences.

That said, there is research that suggests that environmental factors can influence genetic expression of your children and grandchildren. In the case of the Japanese, the seafood diet stays in place for centuries, influencing the genetic expression of their children and grandchildren. The genes which emerge from this environment may lead to higher IQ as you argued.

Even so, there is still significant genetic variety within any race. Two black people can be more different than a white and black person in terms of their DNA. If you maintain the belief that genes are inherent and inflexible, then this misguided scientific belief can get you in trouble. In fact genes are much more flexible than originally assumed.

"Biologists originally believed the DNA passed down to offspring remained unaltered, regardless of environment. Scientists are now learning this may not be the case."

Keep in mind that the gap between whites and blacks in IQ scores and test scores is getting narrower. The change is happening relatively quickly. Perhaps this demonstrates how quickly genetics can evolve between generations as environmental factors are equalized.

[EmergentUniverse]

So before I get too much heat, I'll admit I didn't read 100% of all posts. I did read a large number of them tho. I doubt I'm fully alone in this, although I am sorry that it admittedly makes me lazy. I'll hand that one over freely. 

    Recognizing that other people have lower IQ scores doesn't make us more worthy creatures, nor does it make anyone else less worthy. You might have identified a valid statistic. Understanding what it means and what we can do about it is another story.  We are all at our best when we lift each other up. 

     As for the originator of this post, I'm glad you recognized that denial is a powerful tool used by people to usually justify why they are special.  The next step is to see where denial exists within yourself, and understanding how and why it got there. If someone is smarter than you, let's say, does that mean you are unworthy of the life you are given? That you're instantly devoid of true and meaningful purpose? I doubt any of us are the smartest people to have lived... what does that mean for all of us? 

    Again...we're all at our best when we lift each other up.

Edited October 26, 2022 by EmergentUniverse
Spelling/poor review of my own writing.

[Leo Gura]

6 hours ago, Heart of Space said:

Or, you know, it could just give us a realistic expectation about how society may look after the issues of systemic oppression are resolved.  It could be legitimately more important than you think.

Let's resolve those issues and I will be happy to talk with you for hours about race IQ differences. Until such time, I'm out.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Leo Gura

[AtheisticNonduality]

Racist's advocate (he can't defend himself, so I must do it for him).

His argument is basically:

1. There is an IQ difference between the races.

2. IQ is mainly heritable, 80%. For example, if you have a white person raised in a high quality environment and a white person raised in a low quality environment, the difference in IQ is 80% attributable to genetics.

3. Therefore the IQ difference between a white person (presumably with a higher quality environment) and a black person (presumably with a lower quality environment) should be explainable 80% by genetics.

4. So because there are innate differences, people should be treated differently innately. If black students fail in academics or black professionals are underrepresented in business or media, it's because of biology and not environment. Meaning, no amount of environmental alteration will fix the underlying problem, and affirmative action takes away from the people "who really deserve it."

-----------------------------------

I have plenty of valid and irrefutable arguments against what I presented above, but I wanna see what you enthusiastic progressives have to offer. 

[Heart of Space]

17 hours ago, Consept said:

I just want to get in some stuff before this inevitably gets locked. 

@Heart of Space How would you account for the fact that Nigerian-Americans are actually more educated than white americans, with 59% of them over 25 having at least bachelors degree compared to only 33% of white americans. 

If you immigrate from Nigeria to America you are already filtering out the less competent Nigerians, so it's an extremely biased sample group.  I don't even really have to address it beyond that.  It'd be like if I took the top 1% of Nigerians, gathered some statistics on them and then compared them to the aggregate of one hundred million white Americans.  Do you see the issue?  

17 hours ago, Consept said:

—Black-white differences in academic achievement have also narrowed throughout the twentieth century. 

https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/9780815746096_chapter1.pdf

Absolutely.  Because there are obviously more variables affecting these intelligence metrics beyond genetics that are extremely relevant.  I've emphasized it over and over again.  This is not counter to my narrative about genetics and race.  My perspective accounts for everything.

My contention is that in the perfect world, when we control for all the possible environmental variables, it is extremely likely that there will still be measurable differences in intelligence between the races.  This is politically relevant and should be understood and accepted by everyone.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Heart of Space

[Consept]

38 minutes ago, Heart of Space said:

If you immigrate from Nigeria to America you are already filtering out the less intelligent Nigerians, so it's an extremely biased sample group.  I don't even really have to address it beyond that.  It'd be like if I took the top 1% of Nigerians, gathered some statistics on them and then compared them to the aggregate of one hundred million white Americans.  Do you see the issue?  

Yes I agree with what you say but my point is that you have to ask why are these Nigerians are the top 1%? It is usually environmental factors within Nigeria, the 1st generation immigrants would be from wealthy families who were able to afford to study abroad. There could multiple genius' living in the slums of Nigeria who would have no access to any opportunities and literally no chance to develop their genius. So this is why environment is so important. When you say top 1% it's the top 1% who have the means not necessarily the potential highest intelligence. 

45 minutes ago, Heart of Space said:

My contention is that in the perfect world, when we control for all the possible variables we can control for, it is extremely likely that there will still be measurable differences in intelligence between the races

OK I get what you're saying and I probably agree but the issue is there are so many variables and so much historical context that it almost becomes a moot point. It would also be just as likely that black people were higher in iq when you control for everything. You could also bring in that there are very few 'pure' races, as in if you do a dna test you'll most likely be a mix of a lot of different races, this is the case especially with african-americans, so then it's like what are you even testing?

Overall I think intelligence is very flexible and dependent on environment, especially the parents. So if its believed by others that a certain race is less intelligent this can actually have real world implications as the children will be treated as such and it will be even harder for them to achieve if the world thinks they're stupid. So this is the issue with the thought process of one race being inherently better than another. I appreciate your attempt at the conversation though 

[thepixelmonk]

57 minutes ago, Heart of Space said:

My contention is that in the perfect world, when we control for all the possible environmental variables, it is extremely likely that there will still be measurable differences in intelligence between the races.  This is politically relevant and should be understood and accepted by everyone.

You have shown no hard science for this remotely whatsoever other that vague allusions and this is the complete opposite of politically relevant until you have that. We do have hard science. We have the peer-reviewed studies to back this up. You have nothing. The very sources you try and post contradict yourself.

Edited October 26, 2022 by thepixelmonk

[zurew]

1 hour ago, Heart of Space said:

it is extremely likely that there will still be measurable differences in intelligence between the races.  

You still haven't provided anything that would suggest that there would still be significant differences. Words like 'extremely likely' and 'obvious' are doing the heavylifting for you without being anything tangible behind them.

Edited October 26, 2022 by zurew

[Heart of Space]

13 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Let's resolve those issues and I will be happy to talk with you for hours about race IQ differences. Until such time, I'm out.

Both issues are heavily intertwined.  Your refusal to discuss it is clear evidence of your own personal bias.  

[Topspin715]

What is the point that you are trying to make here exactly and why do you feel it is important to make it?

[Heart of Space]

7 hours ago, zurew said:

You still haven't provided anything that would suggest that there would still be significant differences. Words like 'extremely likely' and 'obvious' are doing the heavylifting for you without being anything tangible behind them.

This is pure laziness on your part.  Look up IQ by country, it takes you 2 minutes to find one simple intelligence metric among many.  There you will see many countries in Africa struggle to attain 60% the IQ of Japan.

Please make some personal effort.  This is embarrassing for you or anyone making this level of effort to understand an opposing point of view.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Heart of Space

[thepixelmonk]

3 minutes ago, Heart of Space said:

This is pure laziness on your part.  Look up IQ by country, it takes you 2 minutes to find a simple intelligence metric of many.  There you will see many countries in Africa struggle to attain 60% the IQ of Japan.

Please, make some personal effort.  This is embarrassing for you or anyone making this level of effort to understand an opposing point of view.

Jesus christ like are you purposefully being ridiculously obtuse? Every single person here is aware of and has acknowledged these metrics you are referring to.  They mean nothing on their own, we have plenty of data to support that, and you yourself have yet to post a single source that doesn't contradict your own points. Please, make some personal effort next post.  This is embarrassing for you and everyone trying to understand your point of view.

Edited October 26, 2022 by thepixelmonk

[zurew]

24 minutes ago, Heart of Space said:

Please make some personal effort.  This is embarrassing for you or anyone making this level of effort to understand an opposing point of view.

What embarassing is, that since you started this thread you haven't been able to provide one evidence that would support your point.

Throwing around statistics that shows IQ gap between races and groups says nothing about causality and causes - I am suprised that you still don't understand this point, even though this is obvious.

Im sorry my guy, no one will make the arguments for you. You were the one who made  big claims on this topic, you are the one with a conclusion and you are the one who is 100% certain in his position, so lets see at least 1 evidence that support your claim(s).

 

Edited October 26, 2022 by zurew

[Consept]

33 minutes ago, Heart of Space said:

Look up IQ by country, it takes you 2 minutes to find one simple intelligence metric among many.  There you will see many countries in Africa struggle to attain 60% the IQ of Japan.

Thought this Forbes article might be relevant to your contention - 

Statistics Show IQ Disparities Between Races. Here's What That Really Means

Yes. there are differences in measured IQ between various ‘races’. But what if anything do these differences mean? One cannot accurately and meaningfully compare scores of people with differing experiences health status and educational opportunities ( see the answer to the question Why is African IQ so low compared to Asians and whites? below).” If IQ tests are being used to compare individuals of wildly different backgrounds, then the variable of innate intelligence is not being tested in isolation. Instead, the scores will reflect some impossible-to-sort-out combination of ability and differences in opportunities and motivations,” writes Brink Lindsey. Moreover, IQ is not a measure of inherited, permanent, unvarying intellectual potential. Although it is often discussed as if it is. It does measure, albeit imperfectly, how well one has mastered certain intellectual skills such as literacy and the ability to analyze and use basic math. People who do this less well than others may have intellectual deficits or they may be suffering from poor educational exposure, trauma, poisoning or even from poverty. So IQ is a useful metric for perceiving such limitations, but NOT for discerning that one has a genetic or permanent intellectual decrease: unfortunately it is routinely interpreted in this manner to claim the innately lower intelligence of dark-skinned people.

In evaluating the claims by hereditarians with known racist ties of higher white and Asian IQ, we must be mindful of a tendency called the ‘Pygmalion effect’ The high intellectual achievement and IQs of whites and Asians may owe something to this. In a classic 1960 experiment, California teachers were informed that as a result ofIQ test scores, certain students of theirs were found to be “special,” with prodigious potential and the expectation of intellectual greatness. Accordingly, the grades of the children labeled “special” improved dramatically, and, when tested a year later, half of their IQ scores had risen by 20 points. In fact, these children had been chosen at random, and the improvements in their scores served to demonstrate the outsize role that teachers’ expectations can play in a student’s academic success.

Also, in 2005 we saw an example of this effect when Broward County Department of Education which had formerly assigned children to normal, remedial or gifted classrooms solely according to their teachers’ assessments, began administering standardized tests to all second graders.

The number of gifted African American children in the district soared 80 percent, and that of gifted Hispanic children immediately skyrocketed 130 percent. Shortly thereafter, the policy shift resulted in a tripling of both black and Hispanic “gifted” students.

None of the students’ genes had changed.

It’s worth noting that some point to the fact that some Asian populations, not whites, are accorded the highest scores and point to the fact to counter accusations of racism. However not all Asians are accorded high scores, and the higher scores are use to reinforce the model minority myth— and to demonize Asians. Frank Wu who wrote Yellow: Race in America Beyond Black and White points out that “Asian Americans are brought into the discussion only for the purpose of berating blacks and Hispanics.” He also notes that the high IQ scores and intelligence accorded Asians is also subtly turned against them to characterize them as lacking creativity and as unfair competitors who are clannish and unwilling to assimilate. Meanwhile the gap between white and Asian IQs continues to grow, with Asians outstripping the growth of whites’ IQs. The average gap between African American and white IQs is narrowing, which some ascribe to greater access to higher education but more study is needed to understand it.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2019/08/14/statistics-show-iq-disparities-between-races-heres-what-that-really-means/?sh=3c77c4274490

[Heart of Space]

If you guys want actual decent responses from me, you're going to have to wait till tomorrow evening.  I work 12 hour shifts and I have no time to fully read your responses and properly respond.  Not my fault, thread was closed on the day I made it and opened when I started work.  It's way too much for me to respond endlessly to 20 people while working.

[Heart of Space]

@Consept  That is not really that compelling an article to me.  I'm concerned with the IQ of fully formed adults as children's intelligence is something that is too dynamic to use as a meaningful foundation to address the race and IQ problem.  They also don't refute the possibility of genetics as a factor for the intelligence gap entirely.

And criticisms of IQ as an intelligence metric are valid.  But it is more something that is used by researchers to put a number to intelligence as to quantify it to a certain degree.

Just as having a bachelors degree does not necessarily make you smarter than average.  It's also correlated with higher intelligence.  This makes it an imperfect metric given individuals, but meaningful when extrapolated to the millions.

I'll be able to give more thoughtful and complete responses to some of the posts here soon.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Heart of Space

[Consept]

23 minutes ago, KH2 said:

I'm actually really genuinely interested in what kind of response you'll be able to generate, and the kind of non-biased studies with enough sample size and correct methodology will you provide. Seems like your positions are indefensible to a pretty significant degree, but it'd be interesting if you actually proved us wrong

I second this, I havent been able to find any scientific research that confirms and can say for sure that one race is innately more intelligent than another but im curious to see if there is actually any evidence to back this up. As i said before it is so hard to get a study thats completely independent of environmental factors it could be near on impossible to find. Maybe if you had children of all races growing up together in the same environment maybe a foster home or orphanage and then tested their intelligence and one race always stood out that could maybe be something. But I can imagine anything that proves this will be very difficult to find if it exists, but always open to changing my mind

[The0Self]

Surprised none of us have deleted this thread yet. Oh well — we’re adults, after all.

[Carl-Richard]

Anybody care to catch me up to speed? Who's winning?