Can we have an honest discussion about race?

[Leo Gura]

@Heart of Space I wonder, do you have enough intellectual honesty to admit that blacks could genetically have higher IQs than whites?

How the hell would you know what the baseline genetics are capable of if you did not control for environment?

Science requires strict controls. You are blending variables like a child. Which is why no serious scientist takes your views seriously.

Edited October 25, 2022 by Leo Gura

[ArcticGong]

Most people are taller today than 100 years ago. @Heart of Space . People live longer and die less. Female, child and maternal mortality is down. Mortality, overall, is down. No one is denying intelligence hereditability, but it seems like you overemphasize it. 

Edited October 25, 2022 by ArcticGong
changing that to like

[Lews Therin]

"Notice how you erroneously assume the default position is environmental factors."

No i am not. I am not assuming anything, i am explaining to you how to make a case for what you are defending. That is not even my position.

At no point i assumed there was a "default" position, i don't have to make assumptions because i am not the one making claims, other than "we can't know for sure"

You are the one making a claim "Black people are genuinely intellectually inferior".

Therefore, in order to substantiate your claim, you need something more than what you have so far offered which was:

"It would follow that..."

"would it not be extraordinarily obvious..."

and

"But I don't' believe that accounts..."

Essentially the problem is that, as you said you don't BELIEVE the environmental factor explain this question, but you also can't seem to provide any evidence, all you have is this belief.

[Consept]

@Heart of Space 

Hey man I know you're busy but could you address my previous post where I asked how you would account for Nigerian immigrants and second generation Nigerian Americans being more educated than white Americans. 

I also linked a study talking about how the gap between black and white kids in education is shrinking, coinciding with environmental improvements. Seems relevant to your points 

[AtheisticNonduality]

12 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Heart of Space I wonder, do you have enough intellectual honesty to admit that blacks could genetically have higher IQs than whites?

I'm inclined to say the difference is environmental. But if we are going down the genetic route this seems pretty dubious for a variety of reasons (like neuro-structural disparities between the races, as in East Asians having higher developed temporal lobes and Europeans having higher developed frontal lobes). But yeah, this is basically just Heart of Race-ism. Heart of Race is uncomfortable with the idea of his inferiority because he's too accustomed to his own racist superiority ideas, and his open-mindedness is crippled because of it.

Also racism as a type of fear seems to be genetically based, or at least biologically easy to develop (good basic Wikipedia article for this topic):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_and_race#Corrections

And there's this. If Heart of Race actually wanted to do this correctly and attempt to validate his racism he'd have posted this, which is actually compelling when it comes to biology and history, instead of "just do a few seconds of research" and repeating the same nonsense over and over again.

https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2017/01/672_222907.html

And: 

Quote

"Scientific research has found no evidence, none at all, to support the existence of intellectual difference among races," he said.

However, scientists generally agreed that humans had made significant sacrifices in return for increased brain size, Su said.

The brain consumed lots of energy, and a bigger brain made birth more difficult and drained resources from the rest of the body, resulting in many issues such as decreased physical strength. Europeans were generally bigger and stronger than Asians, Su said, but whether the physical difference was associated with brain size required further investigation.

"The Darwinian selection may still be going on today, but I think the brain size difference among races will eventually disappear due to the widespread genetic exchange occurring around the world today," he said.

An anthropologist based in Beijing said the study tackled an important but sensitive issue in human evolution.

"The findings may fuel racist debate," said the anthropologist, who requested anonymity.

Data in the study also showed a high frequency of genetic mutations occurring in South Asian populations, who lived in a warmer climate, and the anthropologist said it would be interesting to investigate whether Darwinian positive selection favouring bigger brains had also occurred there.

If so, it might suggest that brains grew bigger as humans spread further from Africa.

 

[Leo Gura]

Xenophobia is certainly genetic and everyone has it to some degree.

[Heart of Space]

35 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Heart of Space I wonder, do you have enough intellectual honesty to admit that blacks could genetically have higher IQs than whites?

How the hell would you know what the baseline genetics are capable of if you did not control for environment?

Science requires strict controls. You are blending variables like a child. Which is why no serious scientist takes your views seriously.

My god your posts are of some serious quality.  Like the meta game being played here with this post.  If finite Leo could see it from my perspective you would shit yourself with laughter.  

All hail the higher being of Actualized.org

[Leo Gura]

12 minutes ago, Heart of Space said:

see it from my perspective you would shit yourself with laughter.

Back at ya

Only it's not so funny when you realize your narrative is needlessly fueling a stereotype that harms minorities who are long fed up with such bullshit.

Edited October 25, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Heart of Space]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

Back at ya

Only it's not so funny when you realize you're ignorance is contributing to a stereotype that harm minorities.

Or, you know, it could just give us a realistic expectation about how society may look after the issues of systemic oppression are resolved.  It could be legitimately more important than you think.

[zurew]

20 minutes ago, Heart of Space said:

Or, you know, it could just give us a realistic expectation about how society may look after the issues of systemic oppression are resolved.  It could be legitimately more important than you think.

You still haven't proven anything, but If your assumption on this topic would be true, what would you do with that information? What would it change?

Edited October 25, 2022 by zurew

[Pudgey]

How successful are you? 

[thepixelmonk]

14 minutes ago, Heart of Space said:

Or, you know, it could just give us a realistic expectation about how society may look after the issues of systemic oppression are resolved.  It could be legitimately more important than you think.

Says the guy in the very middle of directly contributing to said oppression issues lmao jesus christ the irony and lack of self-awareness in this thread is such a joke I don't even have the words.

[Consept]

Seeing as you dont want to engage my points, you do realise that having stereotypes of black peoples intelligence does actually affect them in many areas, not least education where black boys are treated markedly different from a young age in comparison to their white counter parts, where theyre seen to be more aggressive for example, this leads to self fulfilling prophecy as these boys get labelled from a young age, which in turn leads to not doing so well at school. 

Heres an example of a 53 year old woman calling the police on a 9 year old black kid because his backpack brushed her and she thought he groped her - https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2018/10/13/black-childs-backpack-brushed-up-against-woman-she-called-report-sexual-assault/

 

Another interesting stat is that here in the UK black women are 4 times more likely to die during childbirth, one of the reason being that healthcare professionals have an unconscious bias that black women can take more pain - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59248345

Just some examples on how spurious racial claims and bias' can have real world consequences 

[Heart of Space]

@Consept

I can only respond so much, I'm at work.  Blame Leo and his mods, they closed my thread on my off days.  Be patient.  I'm not threatened by honest discussion.

[Topspin715]

Who cares?  If you compare any two groups of people, however arbitrarily defined, you will find group A has a genetic/cultural edge in some ways over group B and a relative weakness in others

having good or bad genes doesn't make any human life intrinsically more valuable than another

the reason why any person might want to label themselves as superior to another or another as inferior to them would stem from insecurity and one's own deficient self esteem

[Heart of Space]

21 hours ago, Roy said:

The problem with this entire topic is; let's suppose it's all true - now what? What's the end game? What can we do with this information to progress as a society?

Notice how if you don't have meaningful or persuading answers to these questions readily available, you're just bringing up an inherently inflammatory topic without any real direction. It just pisses a whole lot of people off and nobody gains anything, which should give you a hint to maybe stay away.

Says the guy who didn't read a single post I made clearly, because I answer that question quite clearly like two or three times.  

It's the same story with about 50% of you.  Your responses show laziness and lack of willingness to consider my position without already previously dismissing it.  

Edited October 25, 2022 by Heart of Space

[thepixelmonk]

6 minutes ago, Heart of Space said:

Says the guy who didn't read a single post I made clearly, because I answer that question quite clearly like two or three times.  

It's the same story with about 50% of you.  Your responses show laziness and lack of willingness to consider my position without already previously dismissing it.  

You have not answered anything clearly whatsoever, just vaguely alluded to various bits of nonsense. Leo re-opening the thread to allow open discussion had some merit but at this point should just be locked again because you are obviously not capable of actual discussion.

Edited October 25, 2022 by thepixelmonk

[Heart of Space]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@Heart of Space I wonder, do you have enough intellectual honesty to admit that blacks could genetically have higher IQs than whites?

Do you actually think I'm intellectually dishonest?  Earth to Leo, there ARE individual people of color who have extremely high IQ.  I don't deny their existence. They certainly exist.  To me, minor differences in intelligence between races due to genes is extremely uncontroversial.  As it should be in a healthy free thinking society.  As it currently stands 80% of liberals and progressives begin frothing at the mouth as soon as this topic gets brought up.  I'm here to vaccinate this problem of intellectual rabies.  You're welcome, though be patient, it's a long healing process with some emotional pain.  

Edited October 25, 2022 by Heart of Space

[thepixelmonk]

49 minutes ago, Heart of Space said:

Do you actually think I'm intellectually dishonest?  Earth to Leo, there ARE individual people of color who have extremely high IQ.  I don't deny their existence. They certainly exist.  To me, minor differences in intelligence between races due to genes is extremely uncontroversial.  As it should be in a healthy free thinking society.  As it currently stands 80% of liberals and progressives begin frothing at the mouth as soon as this topic gets brought up.  I'm here to vaccinate this problem of intellectual rabies.  You're welcome, though be patient, it's a long healing process with some emotional pain.  

Jesus christ talk about a strawman. Leo is obviously not referring to individuals, he is referring to your overall claim of statistical racial genetics. There's intellectually dishonesty all over the place. This whole thread is one of the most intellectually asinine on the whole forum. You are not vaccinating anything. You are just proving what a racist clown you are. People here are trying to give you the benefit of the doubt. When Leo reopened the thread, people are trying to continue the discussion in some form. We are asking you to expand further on the various bits of vague nonsense you have alluded to and you seem completely unable to do so.

Edited October 25, 2022 by thepixelmonk

[Topspin715]

this conversation is similar to whether or not men and women are biologically identical.  obviously not.  

 

the issue is whether you are highlighting those differences to heal and empower, exploit and abuse, or just try to understand the nature of things from a more objective framework.