A question about the inner voice + thinking voice.

[inFlow]

Ok embrace yourself with this question, I cannot set it up fluently cause Im not a native English speaker, hope you understand.

So by "meditating" I began to witness a gap between the body+mind and Awareness, the ultimate I'am. Awareness observes everything that is happening, but one day I just got so confused with this one:
By observing thoughts I witness the inner voice, the random chatter about anything. And then when I notice the voice I use another voice to talk about and get a grasp of what the 1st voice is, but I kinda have to create a 2nd inner voice. And the most confusing part was that there was no difference between the two voices. One was sort of passive, one was, as I understand, active/conscious. Shed some light on my confusion, am I even doing the thinking or just thinking happens on it's own?

[Breakingthewall]

When you meditate, it happens that you see that the inner voice is a ghostly entity that is superimposed on the experience that is happening. you are meditating and you feel the temperature, the light, your breathing, and that is what there is. and that's it that is the total, absolute reality. nothing else exists. anything else you are inventing, it is a creation of your mind. this is very shocking and difficult to maintain since you have created a huge and elaborate mental world, but that does not exist, they are only thoughts.  the act of thinking is real, but not the content of thoughts. You have to get to see this, beyond the voice of the mind. the voice is real, it is happening, what the voice says is completely indifferent, noise. once you stop paying attention to the voice in the sense of believing what it says, the voice starts saying unrelated things, like: my mother went and then the car and her grandfather then the pride and the trees.... like this all the time. this is the step before the voice is silenced. when silent, you are free.

[inFlow]

5 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

my mother went and then the car and her grandfather then the pride and the trees.... like this all the time. this is the step before the voice is silenced. when silent, you are free.

I can confirm that I've had these moments where even the voice in the mind just talks such nonsense. Begins with something and goes off anywhere, it's like WTF is happening.

[Breakingthewall]

7 minutes ago, inFlow said:

I can confirm that I've had these moments where even the voice in the mind just talks such nonsense. Begins with something and goes off anywhere, it's like WTF is happening.

in my experience, once you realize that the content of the voice is indifferent, most of the time it is like that, a kind of meaningless background noise. unless you focus on something practical and the voice acts as a problem-solving tool, which is what it is for. the rest of the time it is not silent but it is in a kind of stand by, and with 10 minutes of meditation it becomes silent. the key is the real understanding of what the voice is. the voice is superficial, and above all, the content of the voice is not you. confusing reality with the content of the voice is the problem that all humans have, once you get out of there you realize how obvious and silly it was, but when you are attached to the content, you can not see it

 

[inFlow]

@Breakingthewall But does the voice stop? I do my Kriya for some time now, and it feels it's getting worse.

[inFlow]

21 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

unless you focus on something practical and the voice acts as a problem-solving tool, which is what it is for. the rest of the time it is not silent but it is in a kind of stand by

thank you for this.

[Batman]

Who is witnessing the internal chatter? Can you find a "witness", or is it possible that the witness is just another thought?

There is no "2nd voice". It is just another trickestery of thought, one that claims separation and observation of the alleged "1st voice". There is no real distinction between them, they are manifestation of the same thought process.

Stay with the question "Who am I?" or "To whom thoughts arise?", but don't satisfy with a conceptual answer. The mind will try tricks to claim to answer this questions with thought, but be alert and return to the question "To whom this thought arise?". Gain clarity that a thought cannot perceive or think other thoughts. A thought is not conscious of anything. A thought is not aware. However, it has formed into an identity without even being one. Is the identity formed in thought conscious of any thing? Or is it just a mirage? Who is aware of the thought-based identity?

[Galyna]

10 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

once you stop paying attention to the voice in the sense of believing what it says, the voice starts saying unrelated things, like: my mother went and then the car and her grandfather then the pride and the trees.... like this all the time. this is the step before the voice is silenced. when silent, you are free.

Thoughts can appear in the form of sensual images and auditory labels, so I wouldn't just say that only verbal chatter in your head can relate to thinking.

Thinking is way trickier than just hearing the voice. I do not have this crazy verbal chatter all the time in my head, it became very mind, quiet, and rather scattered with prolongated stops. However, I still see visuals as memories in my mind. These are all thoughts, guys, with regards to semantic load. 

 

@inFlow but to answer your question, yes, there is only one voice, and it is not even "the voice", since it is not autonomous, so these are just random thoughts formed into logical sentences. 

The best practice to shut off the mental chatter completely is to merge into the experience.

Today I was training my colleague. I was so preoccupied with the process, I literally forgot myself and just became what was: the person and myself. I used the logical function of my mind to explain them a process, however this filter, personal ego has completely gone. I "remembered" myself again when came back to my desk. I caught myself on the idea that I just forgot myself (Galyna with her personal life story, pain, suffering, happiness). But this happens so spontaneously, unfortunately, I cannot control this state.

Edited October 20, 2022 by Galyna

[Breakingthewall]

39 minutes ago, Galyna said:

Thinking is way trickier than just hearing the voice

10 hours ago, inFlow said:

 

Yes, the thing is not about to listen the voice or be silent, it's about to truly realize that all the mental paraphernalia is nothing. As long as you believe you can understand reality with your mind, it doesn't matter if you discipline yourself to be silent for several hours a day. It will be a tense silence, with subconscious activity in the background. but when you really see the mind for what it is, then even with mental activity you can be in a meditative state, because you don't cling to the mind. you know it's a false grip

[Galyna]

2 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

but when you really see the mind for what it is, then even with mental activity you can be in a meditative state, because you don't cling to the mind. you know it's a false grip

That is my best meditation to put awareness on itself. No practice really makes sense till you developed this ability to see your mind independently from what you are. 

[inFlow]

@Batman

10 hours ago, Batman said:

Who is witnessing the internal chatter? Can you find a "witness", or is it possible that the witness is just another thought?

The witness is who I'am in the end. The body and the mind is separate from the witness. That's why I wrote that there comes a bigger gap between the body+mind and the witnessing consciousness/awareness.

Thank you for your reply.

@Galyna @Breakingthewall

Thank you, it makes way more sense. Now I can go deeper.

[Batman]

7 hours ago, inFlow said:

@Batman

The witness is who I'am in the end. The body and the mind is separate from the witness. That's why I wrote that there comes a bigger gap between the body+mind and the witnessing consciousness/awareness.

You hold your self to be the subject of experience (you identify as a witness that is separated from body and mind). 

But again, if yoh discard the labels "witness", "body" and "mind" from direct experience, is there really separation? Where do you find a witness in experiencing? 

What I am suggesting is that any subject/object duality that we tend to create is an illusion formed in the mind (me/not me, thinker/thought, witness/witnessed, doer/doing). This why self inquiry and questioning "who am I" or "who is the witness" are so helpful and direct in dissolving identity from consciousness.

 

[Guru Peter Jordanson]

The inner voice is like your intuition that guides you daily, especially in certain decisions that you need to make. We were always guided by this voice in our lives but you are able be aware of it through meditation.

Thinking voice is all the details you accumulated throughout your life from society,family and friends etc.

Key here is to listen to the inner voice and to THINK (use thoughts from the almost never ending stream of "thinking"). To think is when your "inner voice" and yourself do not appear separate anymore.

There is a difference between thinking, observing thoughts (meditation) and allowing thought stream to mindlessly in your head until you get I'll from them.