What is the difference between the enlightened and insane? (with examples)

[UpperMaster]

Hey, this is a serious question and is not meant to be a mockery of Leo or any other spiritual master. I've been contemplating the difference between insanity and enlightenment, as many people with mental conditions like schizophrenia seem to have very similar symptoms to an enlightened master. Leo has previously mentioned that there is a fine line between enlightenment and insanity (this was touched on in the duality series), but what is this fine line?

I also came across a video on YouTube about a former Actualized.org viewer who first started watching Leo because he saw an alignment with Leo's teachings and what he's experienced due to his condition. He then stopped watching Leo, as he found that a scientific explanation for his condition helped him more.

 

This is the video for context (yea he goes on a rant but that's not my point):

 

So...What is the difference between the enlightened and insane?

 

Let me know

 

[Leo Gura]

The awakened is functional, the insane is not functional.

If you are not able to compose yourself and be chill, there's a problem. If you are not able to handle your own basic survival needs, there's a problem. If you are not able to be happy, there's a problem. If you are not able to interact peacefully with others, there's a problem.

Edited October 17, 2022 by Leo Gura

[UpperMaster]

1 minute ago, nuwu said:

not sure if based for entertaining the illusion of plurality or cringe because its just bad

Don't understand what you saying.

[UpperMaster]

6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The awakened is functional, the insane is not functional.

What about this, lets say you take a psychedelic and you have visions, do you call them hallucinations or an enlightenment experience?

 

Like you remain functional after the experience.

I think I really started getting caught up on this. Some ppl on the forum say they had an enlightenment experience by just taking a bunch of mushrooms for the first time. Is that really enlightenment, seems like just a realization while high. If thats enlightenment, then contemplation could be enlightenment no?

Edited October 17, 2022 by UpperMaster

[LSD-Rumi]

@UpperMaster a Schizophrenic person is trapped in a chaiotic dream. He is in a worse case than normal people. Why would you compare them to enlightened people? 

[Leo Gura]

18 minutes ago, UpperMaster said:

What about this, lets say you take a psychedelic and you have visions, do you call them hallucinations or an enlightenment experience?

Like you remain functional after the experience.

I think I really started getting caught up on this. Some ppl on the forum say they had an enlightenment experience by just taking a bunch of mushrooms for the first time. Is that really enlightenment, seems like just a realization while high. If thats enlightenment, then contemplation could be enlightenment no?

These distinctions are bogus.

As I explained in my State Of Consciousness Is Everything video, everything is a state of consciousness and there are many kinds and degrees of awakened states.

There is no such thing as "enlightenment". This is one of the biggest errors of modern spirituality.

Edited October 17, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Loba]

It depends on the type of mental illness, how severe it is, and the symptoms presented.  If you don't have a mental illness, you won't know how similar and different they can be, so someone like Leo who is neurotypical is not going to be able to give you a good answer on this topic as he has no experience with it.

In my experience with mental illness, it is like a breakdown of the boundaries of the outside world.  Your dream world comes into your waking state, you are inundated with symbolism, archetypes and energies that you don't fully understand.  It comes flooding in, unexpected.  What those with mental illness often find in their psychosis is that there is more going on under the surface of reality than meets the eye.  You are literally stripped of your faculties, and put into a state that ancient man had to navigate.  Nothing makes sense anymore.  It is like being stripped of the normal rules of reality, given something completely new to have to work through, and you have to follow these new rules in order to get back to your previous state of being.  The mentally ill can often times be very aware of their state of disintegration/defragmentation.  It can take your ability away to structure a normal day, for sure, being in these states.  So they lose their functionality.

They used to have training for people who presented with these problems, in order to determine if they were fit for spiritual work or if they were too far gone.  Generally, people who presented with these issues were given training.  Some become too far gone, but a good number of them do have some abilities, interspersed with the illness.  Spirituality and mental illness go hand in hand and there is a reason for that.

A good example - it is almost like being foist into the occult without your permission.  You are given a task to complete that you have to take on in order to put yourself back together again.  Those who are not instructed, or who are interrupted, or generally told "no, you do it THIS way", by fools who think they know better, often damage the person's process.  At times, a person needs to collapse in this way in order to restructure the personality.  We simply don't have the right set up in our society to allow people the lengthy time they need to go through this, so people are medicated and put into the "broken" bag.

As for functionality - many shamans/mystics are not extremely functional.  They are halfway between the spiritual and the waking world.  It is actually very hard to navigate when you are always in two places at once.  It's like being half dead.

I'm not saying that there aren't differences between the two, but there are more similarities than you might realize.

Quote

 

http://studopedia.info/6-85774.html

Another important type of transpersonal crisis was described by Californian psychiatrist and Jungian analyst John Weir Perry, who called it the “renewal process” (Perry 1974, 1976, 1998). Because of its depth and intensity, this is the type of psychospiritual crisis that is most likely diagnosed as serious mental disease. The experiences of people involved in the renewal process are so strange, extravagant, and far from everyday reality that it seems obvious that some serious pathological process must be affecting the functioning of their brains.

Individuals involved in this kind of crisis experience their psyche as a colossal battlefield where a cosmic combat is being played out between the forces of Good and Evil, or Light and Darkness. They are preoccupied with the theme of death — ritual killing, sacrifice, martyrdom, and afterlife. The problem of opposites fascinates them, particularly issues related to the differences between sexes. They experience themselves as the center of fantastic events that have cosmic relevance and are important for the future of the world. Their visionary states tend to take them farther and farther back — through their own history and the history of humanity, all the way to the creation of the world and the original ideal state of paradise. In this process, they seem to strive for perfection, trying to correct things that went wrong in the past.

 

 

[amanen]

Awakening is about waking up from the illusion, insanity is delving ever deeper into it. You could use words like transrational vs irrational too, but I'm not sure how well they would fit this context.

Also notice that the person in the video just believed everything Leo said. Believing what someone says about what reality is supposed to be is not awakening.

Edited October 17, 2022 by amanen

[Breakingthewall]

16 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

There is no such thing as "enlightenment". This is one of the biggest errors of modern spirituality.

Awakening when you realize that everything is an illusion and the reality is infinite and you are the reality. Enlightenment is when you are perfect tuned with this apparent reality. So no ego, no desire. Someone who's enlightened could be sit in a room the rest of his life in perfect happiness. 

Someone who's enlightened use to have awakenings. If you are not enlightened, you are not going to have awakenings unless you provoke them with psychedelics 

Edited October 17, 2022 by Breakingthewall

[UpperMaster]

@LSD-Rumi  Well, because both an enlightened person and a insane person can experience a sense of non-duality, a loss of separation. The guy in the video explains how he thought he experienced many of the things Leo talks about merely due to his condition.

[UpperMaster]

27 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

These distinctions are bogus.

As I explained in my State Of Consciousness Is Everything video, everything is a state of consciousness and there are many kinds and degrees of awakened states.

There is no such thing as "enlightenment". This is one of the biggest errors of modern spirituality.

Ok, I'll watch that video then.

[Leo Gura]

27 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Awakening when you realize that everything is an illusion and the reality is infinite and you are the reality. Enlightenment is when you are perfect tuned with this apparent reality. So no ego, no desire. Someone who's enlightened could be sit in a room the rest of his life in perfect happiness. 

Someone who's enlightened use to have awakenings. If you are not enlightened, you are not going to have awakenings unless you provoke them with psychedelics 

This is a myth you invented, within a certain limited state of consciousness. Exactly the error I warn against.

Edited October 17, 2022 by Leo Gura

[LSD-Rumi]

@UpperMaster most schizophrenic patients won't be anywhere near enlightenment. I think some people who have a controlled version of schizophrenia can be very spiritual, yet this doesn't apply to most Schizophrenic people. 

[Proserpina]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

The awakened is functional, the insane is not functional.

If you are not able to compose yourself and be chill, there's a problem. If you are not able to handle your own basic survival needs, there's a problem. If you are not able to be happy, there's a problem. If you are not able to interact peacefully with others, there's a problem.

I agree.  Except with the functional part.  It can be difficult to function when you are meeting strange entities (some harmful).  You can look mentally ill in terms of functionality (not in terms of happiness or chill). Mindfulness easily helps but not when you’re a newb.  But society doesn’t care about newbs. 

[Chrisd]

The difference is quality of consciousness. The enlightened is very clear. 

[Breakingthewall]

6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

This is a myth you invented, within a certain limited state of consciousness. Exactly the error I warn against.

True, i invented because i never became enlightened. then it is a mental construction based on guesswork. that doesn't mean it's not accurate 

 

[Chrisd]

7 minutes ago, LSD-Rumi said:

@UpperMaster most schizophrenic patients won't be anywhere near enlightenment. I think some people who have a controlled version of schizophrenia can be very spiritual, yet this doesn't apply to most Schizophrenic people.

lol. Nice stigmatization. I can be highly conscious, even happy while some portion of me is having schizophrenic thoughts. I dont live in my thoughts anyway so who cares

[LSD-Rumi]

4 minutes ago, Chrisd said:

lol. Nice stigmatization. I can be highly conscious, even happy while some portion of me is having schizophrenic thoughts. I dont live in my thoughts anyway so who cares

I am just saying what applies to 90% of schizophrenic patients. They are lost in chaotic delusions.

Edited October 17, 2022 by LSD-Rumi

[Chrisd]

8 minutes ago, LSD-Rumi said:

I am just saying what applies to 90% of schizophrenic patients. They are lost in chaotic delusions.

Probably. But train them to get out of those delusions

Edited October 17, 2022 by Chrisd

[Thought Art]

Did anyone watch that guys full video? It sounds like he was having mental health problems prior to watching Leo? I didn’t finish it