Scorn Is Out!

[Danioover9000]

   Is this right to call this type of critique from mainstream gamers and average FPS player? Normie critique?

 

[The Mystical Man]

I think Scorn would've benefited from a traditional Archplot. Mystery is fine, but, in this case, it's too much mystery. For example, Spirited Away is praised for its mysterious bathhouse. Miyazaki doesn't explain anything, but Spirited Away is an Archplot. That means there is a protagonist that we can relate to. That's so important. Because I find it sad that the developers of Scorn spent a decade building beautiful environments without understanding and applying showmanship. But I hope they're proud of their achievement and happy with the sales.

 

Edited October 21, 2022 by The Mystical Man

[Leo Gura]

Scorn's plot is perfect. That's not its problem. What it lacks is gameplay. No amount of story or art can compensate for lack of gameplay in a game.

Edited October 21, 2022 by Leo Gura

[The Mystical Man]

Quote

No amount of story or art can compensate for lack of gameplay in a game.

That's true, but narrative drives gameplay. In fact, narrative drives every aspect of a video game: art and music, too.

Edited October 21, 2022 by The Mystical Man

[LSD-Rumi]

1 hour ago, The Mystical Man said:

but narrative drives gameplay. In fact, narrative drives every aspect of a video game

Narrative is overrated. The most important aspects in any game are the gameplay mechanics and the artstyle. Plot is secondary to that.

[The Mystical Man]

7 hours ago, LSD-Rumi said:

Narrative is overrated. The most important aspects in any game are the gameplay mechanics and the artstyle. Plot is secondary to that.

That depends on the type of game that you're making. A game like Fortnite is all artstyle and gameplay. But that's not the kind of game that Scorn is. The nature of Scorn suggests that it would benefit from Naughty Dog's principle: Narrative Drives Gameplay.

I'd never suggest that Fortnite needs an Archplot, because it's already successful as the type of game that it is. But what type of game is Scorn? Just an atmospheric type? 

Actually, atmosphere and mood are two different things. Mood can be achieved with visuals alone: the right colors and light. Atmosphere, however, comes from a well-thought-out setting, which is an aspect of story. For example, you can create an image of a castle, and it can have a certain mood, but the atmosphere of Hogwarts is unique. The way I see it, Scorn achieves a macabre mood, but it fails to establish a unique atmosphere. So Scorn isn't even an atmospheric type, it's a mood type. It's a mood experience, not an emotional experience. 

"When we want mood experiences, we go to concerts or museums. When we want meaningful emotional experience, we go to the storyteller." - Robert McKee

Edited October 21, 2022 by The Mystical Man

[Extreme Z7]

Haven't played Scorn yet but I actually admire its lack of gameplay.

If the developers of the game want to create an action-ey game that sells, they should do it in a future project.

Edited October 21, 2022 by Extreme Z7

[The Mystical Man]

2 hours ago, Extreme Z7 said:

If the developers of the game want to create an action-ey game that sells, they should do it in a future project.

I think it's wiser to make the commercial stuff first. Then you'll have the resources to create whatever artsy-fartsy stuff you want. That's how Rowling did it. First, write HP. Then you can write Casual Vacancy. That's how Pixar did it, too. First, make Toy Story. Then you can make WALL-E. 

Edited October 21, 2022 by The Mystical Man

[Danioover9000]

   Well, that's a trinity going on there: Gameplay, narrative structure and game design. All three ideally should be actively well balanced for the intended purposes in one designer's mind for a group, and that may take one or 2 of those three and emphasis more.

   When it comes to gamers, and gaming, game mechanics is the most active element of a game. Narrative and design are the attractors of a video game or other form gaming.

   I can definitely agree that scorn is very well designed in atmosphere, at the cost of some narrative and less active game mechanics. Keep in mind a very small team of developers were working on Scorn for 5 plus years, and only have access to limited resources, from equipment's to creative minds, so it's easier for us to make a judgement on Scorn after the fact, but while designing scorn it's very difficult to know more than you're limited by. 

[Leo Gura]

Games that rely much on narrative hardly deserve to be called games, and they always suffer for it. Because if you want narrative, that's what films are for.

Edited October 21, 2022 by Leo Gura

[The Mystical Man]

10 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Games that rely much on narrative hardly deserve to be called games, and they always suffer for it.

Almost always. And that's because storytelling is one of the most underestimated crafts. Everyone thinks they know how to tell a story, but the only game studio that does it well is Naughty Dog. And that's because they study Robert McKee's work. Pixar does that too.

Quote

Because if you want narrative, that's what films are for.

Some narrative experiences work better as games. I have no interest in watching the Uncharted movie, for it was designed to be an active cinematic experience. Druckmann and Straley gave a GDC talk on that subject. One of the best GDC talks ever.

Edited October 21, 2022 by The Mystical Man

[Danioover9000]

@The Mystical Man

3 hours ago, The Mystical Man said:

Almost always. And that's because storytelling is one of the most underestimated crafts. Everyone thinks they know how to tell a story, but the only game studio that does it well is Naughty Dog. And that's because they study Robert McKee's work. Pixar as well.

Some narrative experiences work better as games. I have no interest in watching the Uncharted movie. It was designed to be an interactive cinematic experience. 

   The Last of Us part 1 and 2, old school text-based games, click and scroll games, Visual novels to name a few narrative heavy games.

   Even at the metaphysical and existential level, stories are central to yourself identity and the world. Character and plot = GOD incarnated into a finite being, being inside a gigantic space called the universe, history and Akashic records and Samskaras and wheels of fortune/time, story making might be a part of the foundations of existence as many cultures do tell stories.

[Danioover9000]

@Leo Gura

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Games that rely much on narrative hardly deserve to be called games, and they always suffer for it. Because if you want narrative, that's what films are for.

   Including the Last of Us 2?

[The Mystical Man]

24 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

story making might be a part of the foundations of existence as many cultures do tell stories.

The reasons for why we tell stories are so manifold that I couldn't list them all. There are many functions of storytelling that fulfill the numerous purposes of storytelling. Unlike the other arts, the art of storytelling is deeply interlinked with the human psyche.

Edited October 21, 2022 by The Mystical Man

[Leo Gura]

18 hours ago, The Mystical Man said:

Almost always. And that's because storytelling is one of the most underestimated crafts. Everyone thinks they know how to tell a story, but the only game studio that does it well is Naughty Dog. And that's because they study Robert McKee's work. Pixar does that too.

Asking for great narrative from your games is like asking for great narrative from your porn.

It's always gonna be 2nd rate.

Naughty Dog games are a great example. The narrative is decent at best. Uncharted does not have any kind of amazing narrative. It's decent. But they put so much attention on it that the gameplay suffers. And this is the best case scenario. Most games do it much worse.

The narrative of Indiana Jones is way better than Uncharted.

14 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Leo Gura

   Including the Last of Us 2?

I don't like that whole series. Never interested me.

I don't like highly linear narrative games.

Edited October 22, 2022 by Leo Gura

[The Mystical Man]

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I don't like that whole series. Never interested me.

You have no idea what you're missing out on. If gameplay is what's most important to you, Part II has some of the best gameplay I've ever seen. It has the best everything, actually: the level design, the sound design, the animations, the AI; it's incredible:

 

Edited October 22, 2022 by The Mystical Man

[Leo Gura]

I'm well aware of the game. I'm just not interested in it.

I'm not interested in most games.

Edited October 22, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Vibes]

24 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I'm not interested in most games.

@Leo Gura What about Inside and Limbo? 

They have some creepy vibes and nice puzzles.

 

[Extreme Z7]

@Vibes  Limbo was overrated imo.

Haven't played Inside, though.

[Danioover9000]

@Vibes

On 2022-10-23 at 0:29 AM, Vibes said:

@Leo Gura What about Inside and Limbo? 

They have some creepy vibes and nice puzzles.

 

   Inside...is that the one Storpey played? I think it is, and it's actually a decent Indie game but it's a bit creepy atmosphere for sure.

   Limbo's a good game for a horror puzzle scrolling game, but another game that I know and own got inspired by it got better artwork and animation.

   Rock and Roll Racing 1 and 2, and Jurrasic games are pretty good despite the classic PS1 graphics.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Danioover9000