Limits of left politics.

[Leo Gura]

@Danioover9000 Do not derail this thread with a debate about AI art. You already have a thread for that. You know the one.

This thumbnail is not even AI art. You're way too stuck on that issue.

Edited October 17, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

12 minutes ago, Judy2 said:

i watched bits of the video earlier today and the part where you elaborate on how "fair" capitalism is got me thinking a bit. basically what you left out entirely is that some people may be born with disabilities or simply less intelligent than others....and now the question is, is it "fair" that we reflect these disadvantages socially such that it becomes extra hard for them to get certain jobs or make as much money as others?

I didn't leave that out, that was the point. That's one of the biggest problems with the left. Out of foolish compassion they try to make everything unfair, fair. But there are serious limits to being able to do that.

We should try to make society as fair as possible, but you cannot socially engineer every inherently unfair thing out of existence.

Yes, if you were born with mental disability you cannot generate as much value as someone who is normal, and therefore you cannot and should not be as wealthy. Is this unfair? Yes. But that's life. Submit a complaint to God in the afterlife.

This does not mean we leave disabled people out for the wolves. Disabled people get disability payments for life already.

Leftists have a bad habit of trying to make things equal which are inherently unequal. Which leads to preversions and absurdities. Textbook example of this is the attempt to equalize men and women.

Edited October 17, 2022 by Leo Gura

[thepixelmonk]

52 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@something_else

   Those chess players performing much better than me, by cheating using A.I. chess programs to pick the best variations. They're real chess players.

   Why does gatekeeping exist?

lmao it wasn't even AI art. 100% triggered gatekeeping.

You: some person crying on internet message boards about robots

Real independant artists out in the world who are busy making a living out of a passion for their craft: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cq56o0YH3mE 

 

Edited October 17, 2022 by thepixelmonk

[Danioover9000]

    @thepixelmonk

18 minutes ago, thepixelmonk said:

lmao it wasn't even AI art. 100% triggered gatekeeping.

You: some person crying on internet message boards about robots

Real independant artists out in the world who are busy making a living out of a passion for their craft: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cq56o0YH3mE 

 

   Feel free to keep assuming I'm just some person crying on internet and not a professional artist threatened by this technology.

   P.S. Whoever reported me for my pic, you dawg shit.?

[Leo Gura]

20 minutes ago, Judy2 said:

@Leo Gura yes i think it gets very paradoxical and twisted here. because when we're trying to create society according to specific ideals, in a way we're trying to play God and define what's right or wrong, fair or unfair...but Reality itself exists beyond and prior to these ideals. I don't know if this makes sense the way i say it, but i think this applies to both the individual and the collective. You want life to work one way, but then no matter what you want it to be like, it's gonna crush these boundaries and be its own thing. And yet, we still need rules according to which we can structure society....so in other words, we can always think what's right or wrong and try our best to make things right, but they're gonna be what they're gonna be, beyond our constraints. And then you may call that right in the universal sense, beyond your mental conceptions, but at the same time you can't stop trying to find standards to live by, even if they are an imperfect reflection of Life itself. Sorry if this is too complicated or stupid.

Yes, humans are manipulating nature to create an artificial utopia. That's what society is. But we have to be careful in how we go about this because it can turn absurd and even harmful.

[Emrie]

16 hours ago, aurum said:

The thing I'd like to see the most in part 2 would be a critique of environmentalism. When does environmentalism go too far? This is a strong issue for me and therefore one I am mostly likely to have a bias about.

How DARE you even SUGGEST that environmentalism can even go too far!!!! Im-POSS-ible!!!

No but like more seriously, I think there are just some things I'll do no matter if they're going "too far" or not.

For example, I'm considering going to Sweden next summer and I'll probably take the train. Taking the train would require taking the night train and it would literally take more than 24 hours to travel to Stockholm, it's also much more expensive than just taking the plane. Some people would say it's too far, the plane flies anyway (though I would argue probably not so much anymore due to service staff shortage, airlines are canceling flights more often now), but I don't care I wanna do it anyway.

[aurum]

1 hour ago, Emrie said:

For example, I'm considering going to Sweden next summer and I'll probably take the train. Taking the train would require taking the night train and it would literally take more than 24 hours to travel to Stockholm, it's also much more expensive than just taking the plane. Some people would say it's too far, the plane flies anyway (though I would argue probably not so much anymore due to service staff shortage, airlines are canceling flights more often now), but I don't care I wanna do it anyway.

I wouldn't even necessarily consider that taking it too far. If you're young and going solo that sounds like it could be a fun adventure.

Taking it too far might be something like trying to ban fracking, without understanding any of the energy, economic and geopolitical implications of what you're asking for.

I also wanted to add something to my previous post. When I was talking about the cost of mudslinging, the recent jumping ship of Tulsi Gabbard I think is a perfect example.

Tulsi is decrying the political left for "wokeism" and group think. I think she is completely wrong if she thinks the joining the Republican party is the solution to these problems. But the issue is that she's not 100% wrong in her critique of the left. And in that small amount of truth, conservatives can use that and feel justified in their beliefs. Which just reinforces their position.

Of course conservatives can do this even if the left makes no mistakes. I'm not trying to blame this entirely on the left. But still, these mistakes do create a backlash and strengthen the right.

[Tyler Robinson]

@aurum that woman has some serious mental issues. 

 

[Danioover9000]

@aurum

4 minutes ago, aurum said:

I wouldn't even necessarily consider that taking it too far. If you're young and going solo that sounds like it could be a fun adventure.

Taking it too far might be something like trying to ban fracking, without understanding any of the energy, economic and geopolitical implications of what you're asking for.

I also wanted to add something to my previous post. When I was talking about the cost of mudslinging, the recent jumping ship of Tulsi Gabbard I think is a perfect example.

Tulsi is decrying the political left for "wokeism" and group think. I think she is completely wrong if she thinks the joining the Republican party is the solution to these problems. But the issue is that she's not 100% wrong in her critique of the left. And in that small amount of truth, conservatives can use that and feel justified in their beliefs. Which just reinforces their position.

Of course conservatives can do this even if the left makes no mistakes. I'm not trying to blame this entirely on the left. But still, these mistakes do create a backlash and strengthen the right.

   Banning fracking is a legit aim to go for. There's already not that much land left, and fracking is further creating weaknesses and small to large spaces inside the nearby land that increases the potential of sink holes to happen.

   Of course, going about it without careful consideration for who or what groups you are up against is gonna backfire.

   Also, the same could happen in conservative/republican parties and right-wing groups, a few do swing to the moderate-to-moderate left. 

Edited October 17, 2022 by Danioover9000

[Thought Art]

One of my biggest pet peeves with the left in politics especially in Canada is that they are way to much like snowflakes, play into cancel culture culture wars… like, recently for the Green Party if Canada basically self destructed from the inside out as people called each other racist, mysogonist, transphobic etc INSIDE ITS OWN PARTY. The Green Party is supposed to be the most progressive party in Canada. Which is likely is… however a lot of these people are hyper sensitive, have no back bone, are selfish and short sighted etc

Instead of working out their differences they hurl these accusations at one another… this gets carried in the media and it basically tears the Green Party apart from any legitimacy amongst left and green leaning Canadians. 
 

I was a vote on these idiots years ago be Anna Mae Brown took a dump on everything they had built.

I mean, one person was running to be the leader of the Green Party recently but got Misgendered once by mistake on a zoom call and basically had a break down. They called members of their party transphobic online and started a fund raiser… no…These types of people, especially the woman Anna Mae Paul who was voted leader just last election have no idea what it means to run or govern a diverse country full of people at different developmental levels etc… they are too petty, insecure and self centred. They think the world is Twitter or something. 
 

It’s ironic the people who preach acceptance and diversity are actually too meak and selfish to actually be part of a diverse country in a mature way. Diversity ain’t easy, and you can’t cancel, name call and bully your way to a more progressive Canada.

Edited October 17, 2022 by Thought Art

[Leo Gura]

There are plenty of problems on the left, but Tusli Gabbard is just a closet conservative. Her support of MAGA right-wingers is absurd.

She was never truly progressive. And her supporters were fools for thinking she was on Bernie's level. She never was. Tusli has always appealed to people like Jimmy Dore, who is now completely unhinged and hurts the left more than he helps.

Yes, Tusli is anti-war, but culturally she's very conservative. And the absurdity of all this is that now she will align with conservatives who supported the Iraq war, like Tucker Carlson.

Today's conservatives are so full of shit about being anti-war. They were all defending the Iraq war when it happened, and they will do the same again when it serves their America-first agenda. If Trump started a war with Iran they would all be for it.

People who think Tusli is progressive are really naive. Looking at you Joe Rogan.

Edited October 17, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Tyler Robinson]

@Danioover9000 is she doing for clout chasing especially after Trump? 

 

[Bad_anarchist]

16 hours ago, Ulax said:

@Bad_anarchist Do you have any sources regarding the immigration issues?

I think I might have been rather green on immigration previously, and not been prepared to look into the systemic issues surrounding immigration. So, I would appreciate content on immigration.

I don’t really have to say much more than to just look at the death shootings that has been going on. Many innocent bystanders has been killed. 2 years ago a 12 year old girl was shot to death because she got in between a shooting.  

Here is a part from a Wikipedia article that I think Summs it up:

“In 2021, Sweden was found to have the 2nd highest gun homicide rate (after Croatia) out of 22 European countries surveyed. Most other countries surveyed had instead experienced a decline in gun homicides.[2][15]

According to researcher Amir Rostami in 2021, those responsible for the gun violence are predominantly young men and often second generation immigrants.[16]“

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_Sweden

I took a Wikipedia article because I think is sums everything up in a good way, also you can look at the sources in the article. Also I don’t know what sources to quote since majority of the sources I know on the topic are done in Swedish and People using this forum speak English. I don’t wanna put in a bunch of sources nobody here would understand. 

hate crime against Jews has also gone up according to some sources with the immigration, since many of the immigrants are from Middle Eastern countries where Anti-Semitism and propaganda against Jews is high. My partner is Jewish and he has experienced this first hand. That is ofc anecdotal thoe. 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Sweden

If you scroll down to “Effects of immigration” they write about this.

We have to understand what kind of society Sweden is and what kind of society the people who come here are from. Sweden is a very homogenous culture, everybody agrees with each other which is why it is so peaceful. It is also among the most secular country on the planet. Not to long ago the government literally made a statement saying that religion doesn’t belong in school. There are a few Christian schools (Sweden is considered Christian) but many of the people who go there don’t consider themselves religious. Swedes as a people think you are complete whack if you say you go to church on Sundays. The immigrants coming here are very religious Muslims (most of them) And this causes major segregation. You are completely free to exercise whatever religion you want, nobody is going to stop you, freedom of speech is fundamental to the country. But when you come to a country that barley accepts their own religion the differences become to large. The Christian’s here are already like a small segregated society in some places. So it has more to do with the aversion towards religion as a whole rather than Islam of in it self, although I would argue swedes have an issue with Islam which leads me to my next point. 

Sweden is the most equal country on earth(Well all of Scandinavia really and places like Canada) and many people consider the veil in Islam to be a sign of female oppression. The view on the role of the man and the woman is radically different. Many swedes think the view of the woman is unacceptable and many are even disgusted by it. Feminism is the norm here and this is another value crash. 

Education is also at the centre of the society, University is a old tradition. Unlike other countries in the world, an education is so extremely important, you need a certificate of some sort to be able to move around in the society. You will be at the bottom and you will have a very difficult time doing something without it and you will most likely end up on government assistance unless you open a successful bussnies.(Which most people can’t do) This is a country where getting a basic cleaning job is hard without a high school degree and close to 90% have high school degrees.  There is no such thing as dropping out of school in 7th grade, it is mandatory . And since all education (even university education) is completely free, not having one because socioeconomic status isn’t a problem . This is probably one of the biggest issues with immigration. Sweden has taken on immigrants from Somalia, a place where there currently are no schools since they shut down a few years ago when the society started falling appart . Many of these people didn’t even go to first grade and Many of the older ones about 40+ are illiterate, especially common among elderly women. 
 

imagine coming to country where getting a basic job becomes impossible without schooling and you have none. Just being independent becomes a major struggle for these people when for most it is not. Many who come here are years behind on education and when all Swedish kids are off to university at 20, you are still in high school struggling with basic Swedish. Your parents have no schooling and don’t know the language either so they are not gonna be at to much help either. So many families end up on government assistance and this is a recipe for creating criminality and segregation. And when immigrants make up 20% (This what the latest study from 2022 estimated it to be) of the population this will create major problems because there are so many you can’t integrate them into the society. Just to get all of these people into education takes resources we don’t have. 

Another major problem is the view on government and state. Scandinavia is known for having enormous trust in government and police, but the immigrants who come here are used to a corrupt system. In the town I used to live, there was this part of town that was heavily  segregated. The ambulance was not allowed to go without a police transport because it was to dangerous. The people living there would throw rocks and try to get into the ambulance and steal tools. This attitude on government is problematic.

These are just a few points and there are issues with how the government has dealt with it. The welfare system has attracted people who have no intentions of actually integrate into the society. You might accept other cultures and therefor believe there are no issues. However, how do you know the people who come to your country will respect you and your culture.  I am very open minded but even I have to admit it is very difficult for me. I live in a immigrant dense area and I am moving because if it. This  municipality has done nothing to help with integration and the government hasn’t given the help they promised. The immigrants here don’t even look at the swedes which makes me slightly uncomfortable at how segregated it is. The swedes literally live separate from the immigrants. And when you try to talk to them they will ignore you or flat out dismiss you. The  municipality have tried to help with the segregation, but nothing works and it has cost them so much money they are now in debt. So they have limited resources into helping people who are in need of financial assistance and people in need might not get help. There are places where the segregation has literally caused death. 

Edited October 17, 2022 by Bad_anarchist

[Tyler Robinson]

 

47 minutes ago, Bad_anarchist said:

I don’t really have to say much more than to just look at the death shootings that has been going on. Many innocent bystanders has been killed. 2 years ago a 12 year old girl was shot to death because she got in between a shooting.  

Here is a part from a Wikipedia article that I think Summs it up:

“In 2021, Sweden was found to have the 2nd highest gun homicide rate (after Croatia) out of 22 European countries surveyed. Most other countries surveyed had instead experienced a decline in gun homicides.[2][15]

According to researcher Amir Rostami in 2021, those responsible for the gun violence are predominantly young men and often second generation immigrants.[16]“

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_Sweden

I took a Wikipedia article because I think is sums everything up in a good way, also you can look at the sources in the article. Also I don’t know what sources to quote since majority of the sources I know on the topic are done in Swedish and People using this forum speak English. I don’t wanna put in a bunch of sources nobody here would understand. 

hate crime against Jews has also gone up according to some sources with the immigration, since many of the immigrants are from Middle Eastern countries where Anti-Semitism and propaganda against Jews is high. My partner is Jewish and he has experienced this first hand. That is ofc anecdotal thoe. 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Sweden

If you scroll down to “Effects of immigration” they write about this.

We have to understand what kind of society Sweden is and what kind of society the people who come here are from. Sweden is a very homogenous culture, everybody agrees with each other which is why it is so peaceful. It is also among the most secular country on the planet. Not to long ago the government literally made a statement saying that religion doesn’t belong in school. There are a few Christian schools (Sweden is considered Christian) but many of the people who go there don’t consider themselves religious. Swedes as a people think you are complete whack if you say you go to church on Sundays. The immigrants coming here are very religious Muslims (most of them) And this causes major segregation. You are completely free to exercise whatever religion you want, nobody is going to stop you, freedom of speech is fundamental to the country. But when you come to a country that barley accepts their own religion the differences become to large. The Christian’s here are already like a small segregated society in some places. So it has more to do with the aversion towards religion as a whole rather than Islam of in it self, although I would argue swedes have an issue with Islam which leads me to my next point. 

Sweden is the most equal country on earth(Well all of Scandinavia really and places like Canada) and many people consider the veil in Islam to be a sign of female oppression. The view on the role of the man and the woman is radically different. Many swedes think the view of the woman is unacceptable and many are even disgusted by it. Feminism is the norm here and this is another value crash. 

Education is also at the centre of the society, University is a old tradition. Unlike other countries in the world, an education is so extremely important, you need a certificate of some sort to be able to move around in the society. You will be at the bottom and you will have a very difficult time doing something without it and you will most likely end up on government assistance unless you open a successful bussnies.(Which most people can’t do) This is a country where getting a basic cleaning job is hard without a high school degree and close to 90% have high school degrees.  There is no such thing as dropping out of school in 7th grade, it is mandatory . And since all education (even university education) is completely free, not having one because socioeconomic status isn’t a problem . This is probably one of the biggest issues with immigration. Sweden has taken on immigrants from Somalia, a place where there currently are no schools since they shut down a few years ago when the society started falling appart . Many of these people didn’t even go to first grade and Many of the older ones about 40+ are illiterate, especially common among elderly women. 
 

imagine coming to country where getting a basic job becomes impossible without schooling and you have none. Just being independent becomes a major struggle for these people when for most it is not. Many who come here are years behind on education and when all Swedish kids are off to university at 20, you are still in high school struggling with basic Swedish. Your parents have no schooling and don’t know the language either so they are not gonna be at to much help either. So many families end up on government assistance and this is a recipe for creating criminality and segregation. And when immigrants make up 20% (This what the latest study from 2022 estimated it to be) of the population this will create major problems because there are so many you can’t integrate them into the society. Just to get all of these people into education takes resources we don’t have. 

Another major problem is the view on government and state. Scandinavia is known for having enormous trust in government and police, but the immigrants who come here are used to a corrupt system. In the town I used to live, there was this part of town that was heavily  segregated. The ambulance was not allowed to go without a police transport because it was to dangerous. The people living there would throw rocks and try to get into the ambulance and steal tools. This attitude on government is problematic.

These are just a few points and there are issues with how the government has dealt with it. The welfare system has attracted people who have no intentions of actually integrate into the society. You might accept other cultures and therefor believe there are no issues. However, how do you know the people who come to your country will respect you and your culture.  I am very open minded but even I have to admit it is very difficult for me. I live in a immigrant dense area and I am moving because if it. This  municipality has done nothing to help with integration and the government hasn’t given the help they promised. The immigrants here don’t even look at the swedes which makes me slightly uncomfortable at how segregated it is. The swedes literally live separate from the immigrants. And when you try to talk to them they will ignore you or flat out dismiss you. The  municipality have tried to help with the segregation, but nothing works and it has cost them so much money they are now in debt. So they have limited resources into helping people who are in need of financial assistance and people in need might not get help. There are places where the segregation has literally caused death. 

Sorry but no proof. 

[aurum]

1 hour ago, Danioover9000 said:

@aurum

   Banning fracking is a legit aim to go for. There's already not that much land left, and fracking is further creating weaknesses and small to large spaces inside the nearby land that increases the potential of sink holes to happen.

   Of course, going about it without careful consideration for who or what groups you are up against is gonna backfire.

   Also, the same could happen in conservative/republican parties and right-wing groups, a few do swing to the moderate-to-moderate left. 

It is legit. Fracking is an environmental problem, and in that sense I’d be happy if it disappeared.

My point was that there would be consequences for doing so that I don’t always see environmentalists acknowledge. It can be easy to get wrapped up in trying to save the planet without thinking about the larger systemic ramifications.

1 hour ago, Tyler Robinson said:

@aurum that woman has some serious mental issues. 

 

She’s definitely lost the plot politically, that’s for sure.

[Jodistrict]

Here is an interesting video on the same subject.

 

[Bad_anarchist]

@Tyler Robinson what kind of prof are you looking for? Proof of what? I have cited Wikipedia articles that you can go use as a foundation and go from. These are well established facts.

[Thought Art]

? “left”

[Gidiot]

On 10/17/2022 at 3:46 PM, Leo Gura said:

I didn't leave that out, that was the point. That's one of the biggest problems with the left. Out of foolish compassion they try to make everything unfair, fair. But there are serious limits to being able to do that.

We should try to make society as fair as possible, but you cannot socially engineer every inherently unfair thing out of existence.

Yes, if you were born with mental disability you cannot generate as much value as someone who is normal, and therefore you cannot and should not be as wealthy. Is this unfair? Yes. But that's life. Submit a complaint to God in the afterlife.

This does not mean we leave disabled people out for the wolves. Disabled people get disability payments for life already.

Leftists have a bad habit of trying to make things equal which are inherently unequal. Which leads to preversions and absurdities. Textbook example of this is the attempt to equalize men and women.

I agree with the "cannot be as wealthy" and obviously how society is structured today should not id have to agree with. But imo an ideal society doesn't leave people out for the wolves whether they are disabled or not. A tier 2 point is that everyone is not going to have the same receptiveness to wage slavery; the grind that is life, and for such people that what to do their own thing in their own way saying "well create value or die" to me is just not very compassionate. Im not asking that those who cannot contribute much value to society get wealthy, im just demanding that they have a right to live too. maybe it sends the wrong signal but imo its just ego. people talk about how those that dont work and expect to live are entitled, but you have to admit that it is entitlement also that fuels the thinking that people should earn more than others providing more value in a made up system anyway. if value was determined by how much women you had sex with than hugh hefner would be the most valuable, to me anything beyond absolute basic survival eating, house, love/sex/compassion is arbitrary and how good or terrible you are means nothing to me. why should your opinion matter more?

being a conscious human being by your definition is an absurdity because so much of humanity is stage blue, this cutthroat every man for himself way of thinking is holding us back imo.

[something_else]

5 hours ago, Gidiot said:

people talk about how those that dont work and expect to live are entitled, but you have to admit that it is entitlement also that fuels the thinking that people should earn more than others providing more value in a made up system anyway.

The system is not entirely made up. The parts of it that feed and shelter you for example, are very very real. And the problem with this thinking is that if there were not people around creating this survival value with their work, society could not exist to begin with, nor could you. So by existing and not contributing value, you are leeching the value of others. Which is not especially fair