Decrease ALA dose slowely DURING a round

[Nivsch]

when the dose is too difficult, Isnt it sometimes wiser than stopping the round totally which causes more redistribution? explain below:

Right now I am doing a round with 1mg and I feel its maybe makes me stressed and its a little difficult. I dont know if its real or only psychological, so the only way to check this is to take 3-5 times higher dose in the next round. Otherwise I might be stuck at a psychological barrier without knowing I can do much more.

So say the next round I will start at 3mg and it will be really too difficult, in this case if i will stop I might cause an obvious redisteibution of heavy metals in my body.

But if I will decrease in 0.1-0.2mg every 3 hours until find a dose I can tolerate, Isnt it wiser and will cause much less redistribution?

I am assuming that, maybe, the protocol is written strictly for the "dumbs", without advanced nuances that can be better sometimes, but can't be communicated to not complicate the things too much and confuse people.

What do you think?

Edited October 12, 2022 by Nivsch

[The0Self]

(

I barely even noticed 300mg ALA e3h and 100mg DMSA e4h right out of the gate (ended up doing practically a 6 month round with 2 or 3 breaks initiated by missing a dose; misses are going to happen if you're doing it that long, but never let it happen until you've been on for the minimum 72 hours and you're out of that sub-72 danger zone), but I've seen countless reports of 1mg being way too much (like even "I'm-considering-calling-an-ambulance too much"), so first off... your experience is not particularly surprising.

)

@Nivsch

That's a very important question though. Read carefully... Decreasing (or stopping, or missing) the dose (falling chelator blood concentration) is solely what causes redistribution damage. Net-healing doesn't occur until after you've spent at the very least 72 hours (and preferably >96 hours, or even better, 2 weeks) on the same dose (or while increasing it, technically) without missing a single dose or being late or early by more than 30 minutes. So the question I have for you is: has it been at the very least 72 hours since beginning the round? If so, you can decrease the dose (or preferably just take your break), but then make sure you stay on that dose (or higher) for another >72 hours. You could maybe taper down to find the correct dose (again assuming you've been on that dose for 72 hours) but that is a rather maverick technique, and I would not take more than one 18 hour period to figure it out. You want to minimize your lifetime number of Decrease's (Stop's count as decreases too, of course), as that's basically where inevitable damage occurs each and every time.

The first 72 hours of each round should be regarded as the danger zone -- don't miss or decrease the dose until that period is over -- like your life depends on it. Accidentally doing it once isn't going to kill you, but it is certainly... not good.

Try to simply get through the >72 hours on-round (hopefully you're almost there, but if not, just try to power through it), and then take a break (for at least 72 hours), and then try this:

Start with an absurdly low dose. Far less than 0.25mg; probably far less than 0.1mg (might as well). Escalate every 3 hours until you find the dose that gives you symptoms that you are willing to tolerate, and then stay there for at least 72 hours (since getting to that dose, not since beginning the round at the absurdly low dose). Decreasing your lifetime count of stops or decreases involves doing long rounds.

And for ALA, you NEED to be taking zinc 3-4x (pref 4x) a day (for 30mg total for the day). Hopefully you're doing that, as it is 100% mandatory for ALA to avoid severe copper buildup. If you're not, definitely go back and do more research (but complete the current round). In fact, ALA so drastically elevates copper, that in order to completely stave off copper toxicity, you'd have to take so much zinc (which purges copper) that you'd be zinc toxic... In order to delay that, you can stick with just 30mg zinc a day (rather than 50mg) but you should consider molybdenum 4x/d (which also increases copper excretion) if you can handle it (apparently some can't handle molybdenum). You should also be avoiding nuts like the plague, as they have a tremendous amount of copper. And if you want to even further increase copper excretion, you can try to increase bile flow... one way to do that is to take the following four substances together 4x/d: taurine, glycine, milk thistle (silymarin), and phosphatidylcholine. That might sound like overkill, but in fact, ALA causes copper buildup SO drastically that all of that will itself only delay copper toxicity, not even prevent it indefinitely.

Edited October 12, 2022 by The0Self

[Nivsch]

4 hours ago, The0Self said:

(Stop's count as decreases too, of course), as that's basically where inevitable damage occurs each and every time.

If every finish of any round causes (more benefit but) also a damage because we stop, then why not after the 72 hours, decrease the dose graduately? This must be gentler to the system. For example: 1mg for 72 hours, then 0.9mg (75h), 0.8mg (78hr), 0.7mg (81hr), 0.6mg (84hr) .... 0mg after 102hr.

 

4 hours ago, The0Self said:

Start with an absurdly low dose. Far less than 0.25mg; probably far less than 0.1mg (might as well). Escalate every 3 hours until you find the dose that gives you symptoms that you are willing to tolerate, and then stay there for at least 72 hours

I will try even though the effect is accumulating and I don't feel it fully at the beginning.

 

5 hours ago, The0Self said:

And for ALA, you NEED to be taking zinc 3-4x (pref 4x) a day (for 30mg total for the day). Hopefully you're doing that, as it is 100% mandatory for ALA to avoid severe copper buildup

I do it, but at 1mg the copper built up has to be very minor and be offseted easily but the zinc, isn't it?

[The0Self]

11 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

why not after the 72 hours, decrease the dose graduately? This must be gentler to the system

It just ends up dragging the damage-time duration out longer. So no there’s no benefit to doing that.

[Ima Freeman]

Tip: If ALA is too harsh on your psyche, chelate with DMPS for a while and try to increase it's dose.

I believe DMPS detoxes gentler through an equilibrium mechanism between the cells and extracellular space.

Toxic people seem to have is a boged down liver, so it is wiser to reduce body burden first, without overwhelming the liver, because if the liver can't process a toxic load it sends it back into the blood stream.

[The0Self]

5 hours ago, nuwu said:

not a chemist

 

5 hours ago, nuwu said:

 

@The0Self shouldn't it be exactly what we want? the amount of unbound heavy metals (or other toxins) would stay low throughout ending phase which gives time to the body using its own detoxification mechanisms and to avoid acute redistribution

If it is, we have no data yet to confirm. We do know that as long as chelator conc. is steady for 72+ hours, the eventual redistribution from stopping the chelator outright will not cause net-damage. But that's probably cutting it close, which is why it is best to do at least 96 hours, and preferably 2 weeks (which many can't handle, but it would be optimal if they somehow could).

 

Not to mention, sometimes you just do the round as long as possible until you miss a dose -- making sure it's not something non-ALA if ALA is in your system (if you forget a dose, forget all the doses, not DMSA or DMPS with ALA still in system, as that will fuck you up) -- so the round will already end for you and at that point it's break time, not taper time.

The excess amount of chelator that persists throughout the round... when it flushes out of the body when you stop the round, the heavy metals that it has stirred up are left where they are, only now with no chelator to intermittently attach them before they situate themselves in tissues. As soon as either the chelator is not present, or the chelator concentration reduces, the excess of stirred up metal situates itself in nearby tissue (systemically: "from whence it came"). It's a numerical thing -- a certain amount will simply redistribute per the level of both chelator and heavy metal in system. Whether it happens slowly or for a long period, the exact same amount will redistribute.

As an aside... This is slightly hard for me to explain, but if you have a highly intuitive mind, this might make sense: IF the half life of ALA were not the shortest of all the chelators (luckily, as it happens, it does in fact have the shortest half life), THEN oral chelation with ALA plus another chelator would not be effective. Because ALA is the one that can cross the blood brain barrier. I'm too lazy to explain why that's the case, but literally (assuming an extremely basic understanding of pharmacology; particularly elimination half life) it directly logically follows from the previous paragraph... If you get it, then there is a good chance that you understand chelation enough to not hurt yourself. Congrats. So it's a good little test (the only reason for this current paragraph).

 

It may be better for this to happen over a time course rather than all at once, but since the half life of these compounds is so short, it is unlikely to be as steady as just stopping the chelator. Tapering down may result in a lot of ups and downs, and who knows what kind of additional stress that is or isn't doing. Maybe search onibasu.com for anyone else asking Cutler or vetted naturopaths these questions -- maybe there are some. Definitely go do that if you want to find out:

http://onibasu.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi?query=tapering+down+chelator&submit=Go!&idxname=fdc&sort=score&max=20

http://onibasu.com/archives/fdc/5552.html

What is certain though, is that in any relevantly short length of time (less than multiple years), "the body using its own detoxification mechanisms" does not come into play. Not one iota. The body does not detox heavy metals at any rate that is even remotely significant (for our purposes / in relation to chelation) -- which is the reason behind the potentially very dangerous intervention, chelation, even being on the table in the first place.

Edited October 13, 2022 by The0Self

[The0Self]

@nuwu Tapering UP at the beginning of the round, to get to a dose you can handle, is perfectly fine. Rising blood levels are fine. It's falling levels that cause damage.

The last thing you quoted is too hard to explain. All you need to know is this: if using ALA+DMPS or ALA+DMSA, NEVER stop the DMPS or DMSA first. Stop either both at once, or the ALA first. ALA being elevated while one of the other 2 is dropping will result in accumulation of mercury INTO the brain.

[Nivsch]

On 13.10.2022 at 1:12 AM, The0Self said:

It just ends up dragging the damage-time duration out longer. So no there’s no benefit to doing that.

I understand. At this time of this message I was around ~36h, but I felt I couldn't keep more with 1mg, so I reduced to 0.9mg and stayed until 48h and then reduced to 0.8mg and stayed until now (80h) and I will keep going with the 0.8mg until tommorow I believe. Yes I reduced a little but this is much better than if I would stop cold turkey after only 36h.

Next time I will do as you suggested, and I consider to choose a dose, take 66% of it but every *2* hours to ensure very stable blood level of the ALA.

[The0Self]

53 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

I understand. At this time of this message I was around ~36h, but I felt I couldn't keep more with 1mg, so I reduced to 0.9mg and stayed until 48h and then reduced to 0.8mg and stayed until now (80h) and I will keep going with the 0.8mg until tommorow I believe. Yes I reduced a little but this is much better than if I would stop cold turkey after only 36h.

Next time I will do as you suggested, and I consider to choose a dose, take 66% of it but every *2* hours to ensure very stable blood level of the ALA.

Looks good. Good plan! ? 

Yeah the kind of decreases you’re talking about, if done for just a short period, are perfectly fine; insignificant, even.

In all actuality, 3 hours is even cutting it a little close with ALA, so 2 hours during the day is definitely more optimal. Try not to exceed 3 hours at night though. If you wanted to be a bit haphazard with it for convenience purposes, the most reckless I would ever consider doing it is as follows: x mg every 2h during the entire day, except for 1 dose — the dose right before sleep — where one can take a double dose and then set the alarm to wake up in 4 hours to take the usual x mg and then set the alarm for 3.5 hours, for a total of 7.5 hours bed rest (I’d only do this if, for instance, 7.5 hours bed rest was an absolutely critical need; try to get away with less while on round, but only if you can) — and the pre-bed dose can be 3h after the previous one since it’ll be a double dose.

Though it is highly recommended that you don’t do that. It is best to take ALA every 3 hours or more often. It’s just really hard to do that if your rounds are several weeks long. But for a 96 hour round? Yeah take it every 1.5-3 hours around the clock. I would not recommend 72 hour rounds as that’s the bare minimum but if you’re dosing every 2 hours for a 72h round, it’ll probably be just about as good as a 96h round.

 

The only reason that is even remotely feasible is that the chelation load doesn’t increase linearly with dose. 50% increase in dose = 18% faster mercury excretion (chelation load). So the inverse is true with decreasing doses, and therefore, it is greatly more important to just make sure you have at least something in your system (though it would not be optimal to only think about that, just catastrophe-avoiding), never taking a break too much longer than the half life. You might think the half life is 3 hours right? It’s actually as little as 30 minutes (for a very significant portion of the metabolites). So it would be best if you took it every 30min, but as described in this paragraph, the main thing is that you don’t let it get anywhere near zero… which hopefully you can see is actually something you do need to worry about, considering a significant portion of its metabolites have an effective half life of only 30min, not anywhere near 3 hours. Its half life is actually similar to small doses of alcohol, for reference.

Edited October 14, 2022 by The0Self

[Nivsch]

@The0Self Thanks for the very interesting answer. I think I will take it every 2 hours also in the night I will pre weight the capsules before and it will be very easy just to swallow. I have a question,

In how RS-ALA (50% R and 50% S) different from R-ALA in its action in the body? And why andy cutler opposed to take R-ALA?

How can I know that ALA isn't also connected to some other cort mineral or other essential minerals in the heart for example and doesn't pull them out from the heart and change the relationship of minerals there?

I know this is not a scientific claim, but it still scares me a little like how can anybody knows the full complextiy of what it does.

At least in the R-ALA form I can know it is fully natural and our body already have that so I feel safer cause I know that it doesnt do that.

But when we combine the S molecule syntheticly how can we be so sure it doesnt behave differently?

 

Edited October 21, 2022 by Nivsch

[The0Self]

3 hours ago, Nivsch said:

How can I know that ALA isn't also connected to some other cort mineral or other essential minerals in the heart for example and doesn't pull them out from the heart and change the relationship of minerals there?

^^ this I can answer.

But I don’t know about the rest of your questions, and the forum at onibasu.com hasn’t been working lately so I don’t know how to find out what Cutler has said about it.

 

ALA doesn’t disturb much mineral transport. Neither do DMPS and DMSA. EDTA does cause one to lose a lot of calcium and zinc, etc, but ALA mainly just causes copper buildup. Some other minor mineral alterations too, iirc, like selenium, but it didn’t seem to be significant, last time I checked.