Are you spiritual or just mentally ill?

[Sugarcoat]

I want to share something I find important. 

So recently I made a post in a non duality forum talking about how I’ve experienced a gradual loosening of my sense of self and “realness” and once a glimpse of “nothingness”. (Once for a couple of minutes it was as if the back of my eyes was completely empty and the looker was gone)

I’ve been very into spirituality since a few years back, and since one year back I transitioned from spirituality to hardcore non duality which resonated more with me. I meditated for some years, did other different spiritual practice. 

Thus, in my mind, this sense of weakening of the sense of self, the change in time, space, and other aspects of my perception: I thought all of this was related to the loosening of the illusion of self as if I was getting closer to “the natural way things are”. 

One person commented that I should look into depersonalization and derealization. I try to be very open minded always so ofc I did. I’ve read a bit about it years back and it didn’t ring many bells but this time I read a little about the symptoms and so forth and when I tell you….I was in shock . It was so accurate.

I decided to stop reading after a little while to not run the risk of confirmation bias. I’ve decided I will see a psychologist first. 

for example I had epilepsy when I was younger, and I have visual snow syndrome now, both which apparently can be related to depersonalization.

I’m not gonna self diagnose but oh lord it was spot on that which I read

ive been like this since early childhood so I don’t know of anything else

I’m not in any way speaking against non duality or spirituality . I still see value and engage in spiritually and non duality resonates but my message to y’all is: Maybe you don’t think you’re “one of those”. But why not be open minded? Maybe you’re making conclusions about your experiences that aren’t accurate. Just entertain the idea

its very tempting sometimes to frame things in a spiritual way, when maybe perhaps sometimes what’s going on is more materialistic. This is a trap too I think 

edit : so still nothing makes sense to me I still feel weird even weirder now it’s not even negative like this is the weirdest I’ve felt ever

Edited October 11, 2022 by Sugarcoat

[Phil King]

Most redditors are way too in love with science to recognize any sort of awakening and will classify any awakening symptoms as some sort of mental illness. I feel that depersonalization is very similar losing of sense of self. I also get bouts of visual snow on the daily, especially during meditation and have had depersonalization/derealization in the past from overusing weed. The difference I think is that during depersonalization, life didnt feel real and there was a serious lack of love for life. Whereas awakening makes life feel extremely vivid and "real" even though you know its an illusion. 

Its possible that it could be a mental illness, but if you have been doing serious spiritual work, then i doubt it

[Sugarcoat]

1 minute ago, Phil King said:

Most redditors are way too in love with science to recognize any sort of awakening and will classify any awakening symptoms as some sort of mental illness. I feel that depersonalization is very similar losing of sense of self. I also get bouts of visual snow on the daily, especially during meditation and have had depersonalization/derealization in the past from overusing weed. The difference I think is that during depersonalization, life didnt feel real and there was a serious lack of love for life. Whereas awakening makes life feel extremely vivid and "real" even though you know its an illusion. 

Its possible that it could be a mental illness, but if you have been doing serious spiritual work, then i doubt it

good take. I’m conflicted and confused as I’m not completely set on either one of them. 

yes it seems similar. Maybe there’s people who have been diagnosed with those disorders that had have awakenings, then there are those who have the disorders but think they’re spiritual…

When you label something a mental illness it makes it seem like it’s “false” meanwhile something else is more “true” . So the normal state of solid sense of self is true and a accurate perception meanwhile the weakened sense of self is untrue

maybe im sounding like I’m contradicting my post but I meant it just as a possibility 

what caused your visual snow? I’ve had it as far as I remember with no drug use 

could you go in more detail with your experience of these disorders in comparison to awakening 

I have struggled with my self esteem since early childhood. Have been addicted to daydreaming and for the vast majority of my life I have felt either a sense of unease or distress, or a sense of dissatisfaction. Been lonely, shy, socially anxious etc 

I’ve not  had glimpses except that one time where the sense of a looker was empty . But I’m not sure what that was because it wasn’t profound . I wasn’t in awe it was more like “wait hold on what”

maybe it’s both mental illness and spiritual , I mean you don’t have to be happy to awake and stuff like that ig….

 

 

 

[Phil King]

20 minutes ago, Sugarcoat said:

what caused your visual snow? I’ve had it as far as I remember with no drug use 

Im pretty sure it was LSD. Ive basically tripped 1-2 times per month every month in the past 2 years

 

20 minutes ago, Sugarcoat said:

could you go in more detail with your experience of these disorders in comparison to awakening 

I have struggled with my self esteem since early childhood. Have been addicted to daydreaming and for the vast majority of my life I have felt either a sense of unease or distress, or a sense of dissatisfaction. Been lonely, shy, socially anxious etc 

Im kinda similar. I thought I may have had maladaptive daydreaming disorder. I remember when I was really young, like under 10, my imagination was so vivid that I would essentially be completely in my mind and lose touch with the "real world." Been working on getting over my social anxiety though the spiritual work as helped a lot

When i was 17-18 I started smoking and would get so high that I would have ego deaths and forget who I was. The days after I got that high, I always felt depersonalization and I didnt understand what was happening cause I had not found actualized yet. It actually made me extremely depressed, but there was a lot of stuff going on in my life at that time(peak of covid) so it probably just made it worse. 

I then went to college and had access to LSD and then looked up on YT "How to do psychedelics for personal development" and found actualized. About 2 months later, I had my first real awakening on LSD and that gave me extreme joy instead of depression. Its possible if I found actualized during when I was smoking weed I may have recontextualized the derealization as awakening, but the two states felt very different. 

Edited October 11, 2022 by Phil King

[Sugarcoat]

12 minutes ago, Phil King said:

Im pretty sure it was LSD. Ive basically tripped 1-2 times per month every month in the past 2 years

Damn… interesting. There’s not much known about vvs but I’m curious what’s going on there 

Quoting didn’t work anymore so I’ll just copy and paste your answer :

(((((Im kinda similar. I thought I may have had maladaptive daydreaming disorder. I remember when I was really young, like under 10, my imagination was so vivid that I would essentially be completely in my mind and lose touch with the "real world." Been working on getting over my social anxiety though the spiritual work as helped a lot)))))

Damn I wonder if there’s certain personality types that are more drawn to spirituality and psychedelics . But the daydreaming can be a real struggle…it consumes so much time and energy. And lowkey it’s based on a sense of dissatisfaction because if you were at ease there would be no need to dissociate. 
spiritual work can def help social anxiety, personally what helped most was just exposure I would say…over and over

(((((((When i was 17-18 I started smoking and would get so high that I would have ego deaths and forget who I was. The days after I got that high, I always felt depersonalization and I didnt understand what was happening cause I had not found actualized yet. It actually made me extremely depressed, but there was a lot of stuff going on in my life at that time(peak of covid) so it probably just made it worse. ))))))

damn…. Interesting that the depersonalization would come after. You mean actualized explained how it’s because of ego backlash? 
I’m sorry you went through that. Personally I don’t have much drug experience but I’ve been through tough times where certain belief systems fall apart and nothing makes sense and it’s disturbing 

(((((I then went to college and had access to LSD and then looked up on YT "How to do psychedelics for personal development" and found actualized. About 2 months later, I had my first real awakening on LSD and that gave me extreme joy instead of depression. It’s possible if I found actualized during when I was smoking weed I may have recontextualized the derealization as awakening, but the two states felt very different. )))))))

im glad you had a positive “experience”. 
but yea recontexualization can def make a huge difference but also cause confusion . yea maybe a sense of loosening of the sense of self or absence can be both disturbing or positive . It’s hard to label it and say what it is, a mental disorder or something else.

 

 

 

[Phil King]

11 minutes ago, Sugarcoat said:

Damn I wonder if there’s certain personality types that are more drawn to spirituality and psychedelics . But the daydreaming can be a real struggle…it consumes so much time and energy. And lowkey it’s based on a sense of dissatisfaction because if you were at ease there would be no need to dissociate. 
spiritual work can def help social anxiety, personally what helped most was just exposure I would say…over and over

Yeah i definitely think certain personality types are more attracted to spirituality. Im pretty sure there was a poll for meyers briggs personality types on the forum and a large percentage were INTJ, INTP, INFJ, more introverted types. And yeah i still struggle with the daydreaming although i think it can be helpful in moderation in the form of a visualization exercise.

 

14 minutes ago, Sugarcoat said:

damn…. Interesting that the depersonalization would come after. You mean actualized explained how it’s because of ego backlash?

It basically pointed me in the right direction in spirituality. I was agnostic and pretty nihilistic before and the depersonalization just made life feel completely meaningless. After directly experiencing God and seeing what Leo was actually talking about and not just theorizing and mentally masturbating it made the work a lot easier

[Ulax]

1 hour ago, Sugarcoat said:

I want to share something I find important. 

So recently I made a post in a non duality forum talking about how I’ve experienced a gradual loosening of my sense of self and “realness” and once a glimpse of “nothingness”. (Once for a couple of minutes it was as if the back of my eyes was completely empty and the looker was gone)

I’ve been very into spirituality since a few years back, and since one year back I transitioned from spirituality to hardcore non duality which resonated more with me. I meditated for some years, did other different spiritual practice. 

Thus, in my mind, this sense of weakening of the sense of self, the change in time, space, and other aspects of my perception: I thought all of this was related to the loosening of the illusion of self as if I was getting closer to “the natural way things are”. 

One person commented that I should look into depersonalization and derealization. I try to be very open minded always so ofc I did. I’ve read a bit about it years back and it didn’t ring many bells but this time I read a little about the symptoms and so forth and when I tell you….I was in shock . It was so accurate.

I decided to stop reading after a little while to not run the risk of confirmation bias. I’ve decided I will see a psychologist first. 

for example I had epilepsy when I was younger, and I have visual snow syndrome now, both which apparently can be related to depersonalization.

I’m not gonna self diagnose but oh lord it was spot on that which I read

ive been like this since early childhood so I don’t know of anything else

I’m not in any way speaking against non duality or spirituality . I still see value and engage in spiritually and non duality resonates but my message to y’all is: Maybe you don’t think you’re “one of those”. But why not be open minded? Maybe you’re making conclusions about your experiences that aren’t accurate. Just entertain the idea

its very tempting sometimes to frame things in a spiritual way, when maybe perhaps sometimes what’s going on is more materialistic. This is a trap too I think 

 

 

@Sugarcoat Ye dude, imo, its important to get grounded and actually develop a strong ego, i.e. strong sense of identity, before you transcend it.

Imo, spirituality is fucking great but its also v important to understand that, as Leo says, mentally ill folks are like moths to a flame when it comes to spirituality. Maybe someone can focus on spirituality as a means of mental health recovery. However, I think there are a lot of traps to fall into with that. Depth psychology and getting one's life generally together is more important imo for those who have mental health issues.

[Tristan12]

@Ulax I agree, spirituality most often becomes a method for avoidance for people with mental health issues. Those issues should be worked on with psychology knowledge and proper healing techniques, and then spirituality should be pursued after that where it will no longer be used as an escape.

[Sugarcoat]

1 hour ago, Ulax said:

@Sugarcoat Ye dude, imo, its important to get grounded and actually develop a strong ego, i.e. strong sense of identity, before you transcend it.

Imo, spirituality is fucking great but its also v important to understand that, as Leo says, mentally ill folks are like moths to a flame when it comes to spirituality. Maybe someone can focus on spirituality as a means of mental health recovery. However, I think there are a lot of traps to fall into with that. Depth psychology and getting one's life generally together is more important imo for those who have mental health issues.

Yea or both 

[Ulax]

3 hours ago, Tristan12 said:

@Ulax I agree, spirituality most often becomes a method for avoidance for people with mental health issues. Those issues should be worked on with psychology knowledge and proper healing techniques, and then spirituality should be pursued after that where it will no longer be used as an escape.

Ye I think for the most part its sensible to push off spiritual work until the future when dealing with trauma. That said, I think IFS therapy can be an appealing approach for folks who want trauma recovery as well as spiritual insight. 

Edited October 11, 2022 by Ulax

[RMQualtrough]

I think you know the answer m8.

[Tyler Robinson]

3 hours ago, AMTO said:

This isn’t exactly related, but it’s something I’ve noticed.

I’ve conversed with a number of people on here. Most seemed thoughtful & intelligent. Others definitely displayed mental fragility, or manipulative/abusive tendencies. I won’t go into it here, but Leo’s audience is deffo littered with unstable men, specifically, who use Leo’s teachings in concerning ways. I do read this form differently now & think mental health is probably a fairly frequent issue.

That means for so long you did not think of this as a mental asylum. That's what you are telling me. How did that even happen to an intelligent person like you? 

Gobsmacked. 

 

[Tyler Robinson]

Just now, AMTO said:

@Tyler Robinson Why are you being so snarky?  

Just being frank. Feeling surprised that it took so long to figure shit out.

 

[vishnusavestheday]

Psych wards are where the spiritual moths see fire

[Tyler Robinson]

26 minutes ago, AMTO said:

@Tyler Robinson I’ve been aware of it for years. Stop being a massive bitch. 

Ahhhhhhh! 

Someone finally talked like a man to me. Never had that in a long while. Made me feel cute. 

 

 

Edited October 14, 2022 by Tyler Robinson

[Gesundheit2]

[vishnusavestheday]

Wow, this topic is really a staged intervention disguised as innocuous bait.

3 minutes ago, AMTO said:

I’m not a man. Stop editing your stupid replies & get over yourself. 

@AMTO @Tyler Robinson

[Tyler Robinson]

@vishnusavestheday the men here are kinda feminine. Kinda hard to survive in such a place. You don't get a lot of action. 

Most men give very docile preachy replies. 

[meta_male]

@Tyler Robinson Why you still here then?

[Tyler Robinson]

@meta_male why should it be your bother why someone is here? I don't ask anyone why they are here. Everyone is here for their own reasons. Describing this place doesn't mean that someone loses the right to be here.