Will in the future most people become vegan or vegatarian?

[Sucuk Ekmek]

6 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

 

There is a whole agenda by the ruling elite to make you go vegan, while they themselves may eat meat.

 

Yeah, it's not about the meat, it's about their desired human model. 

[zurew]

31 minutes ago, KH2 said:

Have fun supplementing these with 300 000 variations of organic and non organic supplements, just because you decided that animal killing is wrong - even though you still stepped on that ant and spider?

I am not a vegetarian or a vegan, but they are superior when it comes to morality. If I were to test the consistency of your moral system regarding this topic, more than likely you would either have to take a ridiculous position or your morality wouldn't be consistent. - So trying to dunk on their morality is stupid, imo.

34 minutes ago, KH2 said:

It's kinda funny to me, that a lot of you vegans/vegetarians here have no problem with, for example, masturbation - and consider abstinence as very unhealthy to both mind and body. Why abstain from something so natural, after all! But then, you don't apply the same logic to eating and diet? it's just really kind of amusing to me.

I don't think anyone is using the same logic you are suggesting here. If you try to point to contradictions in positions, then ask for positions and then  point to contradicitions, don't make up hypothetical positions on your own, that no one takes.

 

[Carl-Richard]

@KH2 Would you become a vegan if it was objectively healthier than eating meat but you would have to supplement with B12?

[Danioover9000]

@KH2   I think in the distent future it's a non issue exactly what we eat as a whole, because 1,000 of years later we won't be classical humans, we will be transhuman, part cyborg, part alien, part whatever. We either will continue eating waht we consider today as classic foods, or our diet will mostly be lab grown meats, veggies, fruits, and so on, or in an alien facility. I also look forward to us developing empathy and moral superior to vegans, such that we feel enpathy to the plants to not kill them. We might even eat digital objects.

   But it's a long journey, and humans are omnivores, and no amount of moral preach, nor hither spiritual insight can deceive what my tongue says: meat tastes GOOD.

[thepixelmonk]

8 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

@KH2 Would you become a vegan if it was objectively healthier than eating meat but you would have to supplement with B12?

Of course not, he's not actually concerned with health to that degree, these are just excuses people make in order to not take the subject seriously. I mean c'mon, making comparisons to masturbation and stepping on ants? This is just a joke.

[StarStruck]

I really feel for vegans. I feel sad for animals too but we have to be realistic: hard to be healthy without meat consumption.

Vegans will solve itself because the hardcore ones (the ones who are vegan their whole life without cheating) develop some major health problems and/or become sterile. It is neo-Darwinism at its sadist.

Personally I've tried vegan lifestyle for couple of months and I felt slowly dying. My energy levels were on the floor. I was really not enjoying life. Luckily I had the introspection to be real and stop with it.

Edited October 12, 2022 by StarStruck

[Jannes]

15 hours ago, KH2 said:

It's kinda funny to me, that a lot of you vegans/vegetarians here have no problem with, for example, masturbation - and consider abstinence as very unhealthy to both mind and body. Why abstain from something so natural, after all! But then, you don't apply the same logic to eating and diet? it's just really kind of amusing to me.

Here's what you very conveniently get in majority of meat products:

• B12 -> animals get it supplemented as well
• Creatine -> not essential 
• Carnosine - non essential since body can produce it - but vegans be lackin' -> you said yourself  that the body produces it 
• Vitamine D3 (if you aint African, you must get it from your diet) -> sun, plus most people don’t get enough 
• Docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) - basically omega-3 -> you get it from fish and fish get it from algae. You can take an algae supplement and go straight to the source 
• Heme iron - non heme iron found in plants is harder to absorb, lack of iron may lead to anemia -> you should get enough as vegan if you eat a lot of Whole Foods 
• Taurine - non essential, but vegans be lackin' -> so what’s your point ?

Have fun supplementing these with 300 000 variations of organic and non organic supplements, just because you decided that animal killing is wrong - even though you still stepped on that ant and spider?

 

[Jannes]

5 hours ago, KH2 said:

Define me objectively healtier

Also, "if". I don't deal with "ifs". Eating meat is not unhealthy. Notice, that my choice of diet doesn't limit what I can eat, and what nutrients I can get, but yours does.

I think your thinking is that an omnivorous diet is a superset of a vegan diet. And so it has to be at least as healthy as a vegan diet but probably healthier. But that’s a bad way of looking at things because if you eat animal products you take calories away which could be filled with vegan food. So it very well can be the case that veganism is healthier then an omnivore diet. 

[zurew]

8 hours ago, KH2 said:

Also, "if". I don't deal with "ifs".

The purpose of "ifs" and hypotheticals is to test whether you would be willing to change your position or not if certain aspects and criteria would be in place.

Thats the first part that have to be in place, because its not reasonable to try to argue on a point if there is no way to change your mind. The second part would be about arguing on those points whether or not a vegan or a vegetarian diet would really meat your criteria(s).

So we go from abstract to tangible. If you don't even agree on an abstract level (in principles, in certain criteria)  you sure as hell won't agree on a tangible level.

 

Edited October 12, 2022 by zurew

[Jannes]

5 hours ago, StarStruck said:

I really feel for vegans. I feel sad for animals too but we have to be realistic: hard to be healthy without meat consumption.

Vegans will solve itself because the hardcore ones (the ones who are vegan their whole life without cheating) develop some major health problems and/or become sterile. It is neo-Darwinism at its sadist.

Personally I've tried vegan lifestyle for couple of months and I felt slowly dying. My energy levels were on the floor. I was really not enjoying life. Luckily I had the introspection to be real and stop with it.

That guy is literally insane lmao.

You can feel tired at the beginning of a vegan diet because your gut bacteria has to adapt and you might not be skilled enough yet to cook meals that have the same calories as before. Calorie restriction makes you tired of course. 
 

Here is a short video that compares the diets. The guy eats meat so it’s not pro vegan. He basically says that healthy vegan diets are on the same health level as healthy omnivores diets. But healthy vegan diets are for sure more healthy then omnivores "eat whatever I want diets“ @KH2 

 

 

[Carl-Richard]

7 hours ago, KH2 said:

Define me objectively healtier

Your definition.

 

7 hours ago, KH2 said:

Also, "if". I don't deal with "ifs". Eating meat is not unhealthy. Notice, that my choice of diet doesn't limit what I can eat, and what nutrients I can get, but yours does.

I'm not a vegan bro. I just want to hear your arguments. I think you do deal with ifs, just not this particular if.

[Bobby_2021]

On 10/11/2022 at 7:51 PM, Carl-Richard said:

What did we eat before those millions of years? Does eating plants require agriculture? ? In what way should we appeal to evolution to inform our dietary choices? Should we eat things that increased reproductive fitness during a certain period of our history in a world of pre-modern scarcity, or should we eat things that increase health and longevity today in a world of modern post-scarcity? Are those the same?

Our bodies have adapted to eating meat because it offered a quick source of all the vitamins and minerals compared to plants. 

Meat was our primary diet for most of history because plants couldn't fulfill that role.

I completely accept if you raise ethical concerns, like should we eat meat at the cost of animal suffering.  I myself am a great animal lover. Accepting this is hard for me. 

Even climate concerns are mostly bullshit. Check this video for an indepth explanation.?

https://youtu.be/sGG-A80Tl5g

Reducing climate change by reducing meat consumption is pure propaganda.

@Carl-Richard

Another serious cause of concern is soil degradation. Excessive farming and over reliance on plant products will be problematic because the nutritional density of our crops have steadily decreasing over time.

An orange made in 1920s were much more Nutritionally dense compared to an orange made hundred of years later. 

(Source: God revealed it to me.?)

It's a common myth that cattle takes away land which can be used to grow crops. In fact cattles grazes on non stable and rugged land which are unfit for cultivation anyway.

So eating meat is a great way to replenish what being excessively hard to replace with plants alone. 

On 10/11/2022 at 8:27 PM, Jannes said:

That sounds like such a conspiracy theory. 
Don’t you think they could also be just stage yellow thinker and recognize that we won’t sustain the human race with meat consumption and because veganism is healthy and sustainable it should be supported? 

Or bill gates is a stage orange multi billionaire who wants to amaze more money and power while masquerading as an elite thinker.

He is more orange than yellow.

Observe his actions, not his words.

He himself eats ham burgers but he wants you to go vegan. Lmao. 

On 10/11/2022 at 8:27 PM, Jannes said:

In what? 

In general health and fitness.

I have seen jacked body builders who are vegetarian. They are the exception, rather than the rule. 

On 10/11/2022 at 8:27 PM, Jannes said:

Source: Gigachad

I don't give in to propaganda sources. 

21 hours ago, zurew said:

Lets get into specifics, what a vegan or a vegetarian is missing when he/she is not eating meat?

Creatine, for starters. That is almost exclusively found in meat.

You need to supplement a lot.

You can ask a vegan. All I have seen is theylm obsessing about 112 supplements and still appearing dissatisfied. ?

I will go vegan after seeing the vegans experiment with this stuff for decades until they generate good results. 

It's also a cause of concern the way supplements are being made.

The last thing you want is heavy metals which are found in many vegan supplements.

Is it really worth the cost? 

Edited October 12, 2022 by Bobby_2021

[zurew]

15 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Is it really worth the cost? 

I guess depeds on for what reason(s) you do it. If its for moral reasons, then there is not much to argue there.

 if you would only do it for health reasions, then yeah, you might not have so much reason to go for it, but that is different from the original claim, that veganism or vegetarianism is not healthy.

I am not necessarily against supplementing, do you and if you are , why?

15 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

I have seen jacked body builders who are vegetarian. They are the exception, rather than the rule. 

what do you mean by not the rule? When you are talking about vegans or vegetarians you are already selecting from a small group of people, and if you combine that with the criteria of them being a bodybuilder then you narrow it down even more.

So to compare those numbers is not the best way to do a comparison, I think you would get a more precise comparison if you would compare them by % and not by numbers.

Edited October 12, 2022 by zurew

[Bobby_2021]

6 minutes ago, zurew said:

if you would only do it for health reasions, then yeah, you might not have so much reason to go for it, but that is different from the original claim, that veganism or vegetarianism is not healthy.

It could be healthy if you can dedicate lots of energy into making it that way.

I am simply not in a position to dedicate my time into it.

The original idea of supplements is to supplement your body with what your food cannot.

Supplementation is fine. Supplements are not a replacement, which is the way vegans see it. It a cope to make up for the lack of meat. 

Edited October 12, 2022 by Bobby_2021

[Danioover9000]

   Omnivore diet is ultimate diet.

   Or stick to sushi and seafood if that's your natural diet too.

[Carl-Richard]

21 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Our bodies have adapted to eating meat because it offered a quick source of all the vitamins and minerals compared to plants. 

Meat was our primary diet for most of history because plants couldn't fulfill that role.

We adapted in order to survive and reproduce, not sustain health or promote longevity. What actually leads to the most health and longevity is an empirical question that we can only answer today using scientific methods. To look for the answer in our evolutionary history is at best vacuous, at worst irrelevant.

 

21 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Even climate concerns are mostly bullshit. Check this video for an indepth explanation.?

https://youtu.be/sGG-A80Tl5g

Reducing climate change by reducing meat consumption is pure propaganda.

That video mainly centers around the heterogeneous farmland argument, but it doesn't go into how the farmland actually got there:

 

Quote

Worldwide, more than half of forest loss is due to conversion of forest into cropland, whereas livestock grazing is responsible for almost 40 percent of forest loss, according to the new study.

https://www.fao.org/newsroom/detail/cop26-agricultural-expansion-drives-almost-90-percent-of-global-deforestation/en

 

What about the tropical rain forests?

Quote

A new study led by a Stanford researcher shows that more than 80 percent of the new farmland created in the tropics between 1980 and 2000 came from felling forests, which sends carbon into the atmosphere and drives global warming. 

https://news.stanford.edu/news/2010/september/farmland-cutting-forests-090210.html

Edited October 13, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[integral]

In the future we will no longer need to eat. 

[Bobby_2021]

On 10/13/2022 at 5:16 AM, Carl-Richard said:

That video mainly centers around the heterogeneous farmland argument, but it doesn't go into how the farmland actually got there:

 

The whole foundation of this vegan discussion is centred around advanced economies. 

Almost half of the worldwide deforestation occurs in two countries, Brazil and Indonesia. These people really don't have much choice. Beef production will not have contributed to deforestation, if they had access to superior technology and methods of agriculture that is in US.

The US produces 18% of the world's beef. The amount of forest area in the US has only been slightly increasing not decreasing. It's because they can feed on grass, take shit in the grass, and the whole carbon cycle continues. They can eat the waste from crop production factories. All of those are converted into food in the form of meat.

Beef production has been ultra efficient in the US if you compare it to these "tropical countries", who may not have the tech or infrastructure to reach such levels of efficiency. Beef production can work in sync with plant production, if you can organise the whole process systematically. 

This conversation could be interesting if you could pull up stats just from the united states.

Worldwide stats are misleading. 

Brazil may give you 1 kg of beef by clearing some area of forest land.

The same 1 kg of beef may come form a cow who has been grown besides a factory that produces plant waste.

No forest has to be cleared at all, if you can make the production efficient. 

Edited October 14, 2022 by Bobby_2021

[Carl-Richard]

12 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

The whole foundation of this vegan discussion is centred around advanced economies. 

This discussion centers around whether animal agriculture is bad for the environment, and it's simply the case that it leads to deforestation.

Edited October 14, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[Bobby_2021]

10 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

This discussion centers around whether animal agriculture is bad for the environment, and it's simply the case that it leads to deforestation.

A lot of things that we do is bad for the environment.

Our task is to balance and minimise the loss of environment while maximising the benifits we get from the damage we do to the environment.

The net forest area in US has only been growing despite being the largest producer of beef.

Which means that the loss of forest is not that great as the environmentalists want you to believe.

Maybe you should try to find methods to implement more effective strategies like work form home which helps to reduce emissions, instead of focusing our efforts to cut down beef consumption which may not be that big of a deal when it comes to climate change.