Did I Get A Glimpse On What I Am?

[Santhiphap]

Hi,

I just did the "Enlightenment Guided Inquiry - The Neti Neti Method" by Leo and I had an experience of that nothingness, or did I?

At the moment in the video when Leo said I should just try to consider that I am nothing and I should now try to be that nothingness, something happened for a split second or even shorter: Some kind of feeling of nothingness evoked very strongly. It seemed like nothingness was expanding rapidly, followed by an immense fear and because of that strong fear the nothingness shrunk/contracted and disappeared. All this happened in less of a second I think and the fear was dissolving as well.

Now I am questioning myself if that was some kind of imagination or hallucination. Everything else during the meditation felt like imagination but this short experience didnt feel like imagination. It just happened unvoluntarily. 

I cant really give more information except that now I have a very unclear picture in my head how it "looked" like in that moment. Just expanding and contracting blackness but no structures in it with which I could explain how I identified the expansion or contraction. It was more like a feeling than a picture.

Whats weird is that I didnt understand/realized myself as being that nothingness. It just came over me like a frightening chill. 

Could someone with confirmed enlightenment experiences comment on this?

Thank you.

[Bebop]

@Santhiphap Yes it sounds like you had a glimpse of nothingness. It's not an experience but rather what everything arises out of, your mind is not going to be able to grasp this. Keep going with it, ask yourself who is aware of the sensations

[Natasha]

@Santhiphap To me the initial glimps of 'no-self' was more a releaf than fear. But the ego always fights it though, because when you know what you truly are, you also know what you are NOT and that the mind-body construct is just an illusion, a false sense of self. 

This will help understand:

 

[Santhiphap]

@Bebop Thanks for replying Bebop,

I am almost speachless. Its hard for me to believe that it was genuine, but then again there is no possible way I could truly explain it with words because I have never had it before. One thing that I am sure of is that I didnt try hard at all. I was almost bored by the parts of the video when Leo went through the different senses and thoughts. "Of course I am not taste, duhhh"

Despite from other meditation sessions in which I tried so hard to grasp something that might enlighten me, today, I did not intend or think of an outcome like this in any way. 

After having that moment as confused and excited as I was, I almost didnt make it to the end of the video. The next thing I thought of was to ask about it in the forums. Then I cooked a meal. I didnt feel any different, just excited and mind blown. After eating, I am writing this now.

I am scared to forget and doubt it. I am trying to write down as much as possible to remind myself. Somehow I already start to lose some of the memory of what it REALLY was like. It wasnt the question of who I am that kicked it off. During the session I asked myself many times without results who I am or who the observer is. First word perceiver had a huge impact on me to understand more and that something must be perceivinig. But the thing that kicked it off was the thought of nothingness, trying to imagine nothing and then without being able to grasp it, just trying to be it. Trying to be something that I had no idea of what it might be but it must somehow be perceiving everything. I wonder why I didnt feel/experience any relation with that nothingness, it felt completely foreign. And the fear was like an existential fear of being sucked into the nothingness, not ever being able to get out again.

I think before trying to get to that nothingness again I might have to do some deeper research on peoples experiences and what happens next or else I will be too scared again and wont get any further than today.

Edit:

@Natasha Funny how in that exact moment you post the reply with the guide  Thanks alot! 

 

Edited February 18, 2017 by Santhiphap

[Natasha]

@Santhiphap You're welcome. I had my initial glimps while doing Leo's guided 'no-self- meditation too. Don't stop there and keep looking deeper. Ayla's guide came handy many times. You're on the right track  

[Bebop]

@Santhiphap Yeah it can get pretty scary, it took me a while to get used to it but I can say I'm glad I went through the process. @Natasha posted a really good guide for you to use, I wish I had that when I had my first awakening because it would of saved me from having an existential crisis haha. Just keep in mind that love will always prevail over fear. Good luck on your journey back to remembering your true self  

[PureExp]

5 hours ago, Santhiphap said:

I just did the "Enlightenment Guided Inquiry - The Neti Neti Method" by Leo and I had an experience of that nothingness, or did I?

Well, try it again

Everyone goes through different experiences during their practice. The neti-neti is meant to show you that you are not an experience (na+iti = not that).

So then what are you? Of course, the experiencer. The experiencer is the nothingness behind all experiences. It is like that here and now.

The next step is to see that you are the origin of all experiences, and the dichotomy of experience and experiencer is only an illusion.

 

 

Edited February 19, 2017 by PureExp
sp

[Leo Gura]

@Santhiphap Yes, that's a tiny glimpse.

Existential terror is the hallmark of approaching the Truth. It's the ego recognizing that it's unreal, and immediately recoiling back into illusion.

The first glimpse is actually the easiest, because the ego is so foolish it doesn't know yet that enlightenment actually means it's death. Now you know, so it will be harder. You'll have to really want it now and really work your ass for it.

What you had was a bit of the spiritual beginner's luck. But you can't coast on that luck.

[alyra]

@Leo Gura why exactly, tho, is the whole enlightenment process not just another trick of the ego? experiences of nothingness, infinity, another being, not just a trick of ego? just as we can never prove the existence of physical matter because it all falls back to sensation. we cannot prove the existence of non duality because it all returns to the fact of our awareness being aware of everything but its direct self. awareness proves duality in the exact same way it denies duality. 

 

where am I even going with this question. I'm too asleep. peace, friend.

[Leo Gura]

@aryberry Infinity/Nothingness is NOT an experience.

Ego ends forever after true enlightenment. It never existed. Life as you know it ends.

[Telepresent]

@aryberry I'm finding it helpful at the moment to reverse the phrase "God created man in his image", giving us "Man created God in his image".  This is not so much about how we draw God as a big bearded human in the sky, but to do with the idea of perception and perceived (or awareness and appearance).   We work from an assumed position that awareness/appearance requires both subject and object.  This assumption needs to be checked.

What it means, though, in relation to your post, is that you are imagining an observer observing nothing.  Which is not nothing, because the observer exists.  So from that paradigm, awareness has to demonstrate duality, because there is subject and object.  The questions become; does awareness definitely imply/require separation of subject and object?  How can there be nothing if there is subject and object?  Are my assumptions about perception and awareness 100% irrefutably correct?  Could they be wrong, and if so, how?

Edited February 19, 2017 by Telepresent

[Son of leo]

@Leo Gura After enlightenment, we are alive so again we get more new experiences.... so we have to get enlightened again??

[alyra]

12 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@aryberry Infinity/Nothingness is NOT an experience.

Ego ends forever after true enlightenment. It never existed. Life as you know it ends.

I guess then really the question I am asking is. why is enlightenment not just an transcendent mask of ego? losing perception of a thing is only a lack of object permanence. What really is Ego but a sense of self - and what is nonduality but a sense of self? letting go doesn't cease the existence of the object - only the attachment to it. But both the Sage who speaks his mind shows he is attached by his insistence to share it - and the Sage who holds silent shows he is attached by adhering to the principal he imagines up to explain things away. 

 

Thought is not limited to words and images and sensation. Awareness is thought too. literal being is thought, as we can experience it. Experience itself is the ego - It has been recommended to be in the moment, to be aware of the direct experience without judgement without allowing the rational mind to rationalize the experience. I do not deny the inherent meaning in such an activity - but it is like in quantum mechanics - the measurement itself changes the existence. True existence is necessarily unknowable - because knowing AKA direct experience is limiting existence to a measurable state. awareness is our most authentic tool of measuring the world around us - but measurement itself is why duality "exists" = measurement itself results from the "influence" of ego. in a certain way, "true" or however you name it - enlightenment is in ceasing to be aware altogether. we cannot escape our existence - only transcend it - and to transcend it does not leave the existence behind in any way. that existence is still there. 

 

to return to the discussion at hand - we name certain thoughts and experiences. in this way we create duality. Both in asking if he glimpsed nothingness, and in answering - we all have forced the topic to be about somethingness. Nothingness cannot be remembered - and we cannot be aware of it. There would be no experience in nothingness - and no sensory input - no awareness - no consciousness - no body and no mind. Nothing that we can imagine* can be nothingness - we can't even look at it sideways with our periphery. 

I am not yet familiar with the neti-neti method. but any method is not nothingness. this is not to say that we are futile to attempt to pretend to glimpse at it - but instead the intention is to reveal the practicality in releasing the need to ask if we've got it. the answer will always be no. It is only something we learn from in pursuit of, but never something we reach - and if we believe we've reached it, we are fooling ourself by means of ego. 

 

 

 

*or be

Edited February 19, 2017 by aryberry
the footnote.

[alyra]

7 hours ago, Telepresent said:

@aryberry I'm finding it helpful at the moment to reverse the phrase "God created man in his image", giving us "Man created God in his image".  This is not so much about how we draw God as a big bearded human in the sky, but to do with the idea of perception and perceived (or awareness and appearance).   We work from an assumed position that awareness/appearance requires both subject and object.  This assumption needs to be checked.

What it means, though, in relation to your post, is that you are imagining an observer observing nothing.  Which is not nothing, because the observer exists.  So from that paradigm, awareness has to demonstrate duality, because there is subject and object.  The questions become; does awareness definitely imply/require separation of subject and object?  How can there be nothing if there is subject and object?  Are my assumptions about perception and awareness 100% irrefutably correct?  Could they be wrong, and if so, how?

Maybe I am making assumptions but often it seems as if the nature of duality is to deny what is being observed as real. but such an approach is like taking the black shadow out of yin and yang. it is still there. duality is nonduality in a way. nonduality is duality in a way. there's not really a good way for me to explain this that I know of! isn't that curious :3 I don't know what to say. and I don't even know how to think of it. hehehe.... 

Edited February 19, 2017 by aryberry
misspelling

[Santhiphap]

14 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@Santhiphap Yes, that's a tiny glimpse.

Existential terror is the hallmark of approaching the Truth. It's the ego recognizing that it's unreal, and immediately recoiling back into illusion.

The first glimpse is actually the easiest, because the ego is so foolish it doesn't know yet that enlightenment actually means it's death. Now you know, so it will be harder. You'll have to really want it now and really work your ass for it.

What you had was a bit of the spiritual beginner's luck. But you can't coast on that luck.

@Leo Gura Thank you for replying Leo, Yesterday I thought the first glimpse is the hardest and that I now know how to get there easily. Well, I just meditated again and tried to get there. I knew how to reach out for it but I couldnt become it. Once I came near to becoming it, my heartrate increased, adrenaline, heavier breathing and existential anxiety kept me from becoming it. What you said makes perfect sense.

Is there a better way to think of nothingess thats not so frightening? Maybe, oneness or something better that I can tell my ego? In the past I have always thought of enlightenment in a good way of being everything in nature. Now I just fear death. Of course I understand what my ego "did" there but I cant help it, of course. I dont want to "be gone"! I dont want to forget my ego. Its what has always kept me going in this world. Isnt it foolish to throw it all away? 

Its funny, Now I feel so much love for my ego. I had a hard time during the last couple of years (depression and anxiety) and I always tried to think back to times (mostly childhood) when I felt so much love for myself and the love of my parents. Those were the happiest times of my life so I always try to feed my ego with them to be able to live better. I thought that it was unconditional love but was it really that and does it matter?

I see the paradoxes I think. But how do I put my trust in something that I dont know yet what it really is. The "teachers" say it is the true self, it all I am. How do I trust them?

I guess it all comes down to:

• Realizing that ego is an illusion. (I guess I am not fully convinced yet)
• Digging deeper into the existential anxiety/terror that occurs close to becoming nothing. (Somehow it tells me there is something real about the nothingness that I am to become)

Maybe I can try to concentrate on the things that in the past led me to believe ego is stupid.

Maybe it helps if I read and understand more about what exactly happens in terms of existential terror when I chose to become it again and kind of foresee it so I am prepared to react and not helpless.

I am quiet confused now. If anyone can help I would appreciate it.

 

[Santhiphap]

At least I am still curious and I will definitely try again and try to reinforce that there is nothing to be scared of. The only thing I am scared of is that people say I will lose something that I can never get back to which makes it a life decision..

[Bebop]

1 hour ago, Santhiphap said:

@Leo Gura Thank you for replying Leo, Yesterday I thought the first glimpse is the hardest and that I now know how to get there easily. Well, I just meditated again and tried to get there. I knew how to reach out for it but I couldnt become it. Once I came near to becoming it, my heartrate increased, adrenaline, heavier breathing and existential anxiety kept me from becoming it. What you said makes perfect sense.

Is there a better way to think of nothingess thats not so frightening? Maybe, oneness or something better that I can tell my ego? In the past I have always thought of enlightenment in a good way of being everything in nature. Now I just fear death. Of course I understand what my ego "did" there but I cant help it, of course. I dont want to "be gone"! I dont want to forget my ego. Its what has always kept me going in this world. Isnt it foolish to throw it all away? 

Its funny, Now I feel so much love for my ego. I had a hard time during the last couple of years (depression and anxiety) and I always tried to think back to times (mostly childhood) when I felt so much love for myself and the love of my parents. Those were the happiest times of my life so I always try to feed my ego with them to be able to live better. I thought that it was unconditional love but was it really that and does it matter?

I see the paradoxes I think. But how do I put my trust in something that I dont know yet what it really is. The "teachers" say it is the true self, it all I am. How do I trust them?

I guess it all comes down to:

• Realizing that ego is an illusion. (I guess I am not fully convinced yet)
• Digging deeper into the existential anxiety/terror that occurs close to becoming nothing. (Somehow it tells me there is something real about the nothingness that I am to become)

Maybe I can try to concentrate on the things that in the past led me to believe ego is stupid.

Maybe it helps if I read and understand more about what exactly happens in terms of existential terror when I chose to become it again and kind of foresee it so I am prepared to react and not helpless.

I am quiet confused now. If anyone can help I would appreciate it.

 

The ego is a false illusion that you have identified with, its only function is to help you navigate through this physical reality. This is difficult to accept at first because this means you've been living a lie your entire life up until this point. Don't try to chase this state as you'll never reach it, your only function in this reality is to just be and enjoy whatever life has to offer you. The paradox is that Nothingness = Everything. Again. your mind is not going to grasp this so just practice mindfulness and be aware of the sensations going through your awareness and try to pinpoint where they are coming from. You are going to be confused for a while but that's part of the journey, this is a just game you created for yourself since you had nothing better to do. It may feel like you are dying at times but this is a process of rebirth This is one of my favorite quotes that I hope will help you "What the caterpillar calls the end, the rest of the world calls a butterfly." -Lao Tzu

[Telepresent]

2 hours ago, aryberry said:

Maybe I am making assumptions but often it seems as if the nature of duality is to deny what is being observed as real. but such an approach is like taking the black shadow out of yin and yang. it is still there. duality is nonduality in a way. nonduality is duality in a way. there's not really a good way for me to explain this that I know of! isn't that curious :3 I don't know what to say. and I don't even know how to think of it. hehehe.... 

We have to make assumptions all the time - I find the trick is to keep going back to re-evaluate them...  I suppose an important question here is what you mean by 'real', when you refer to denying what is being observed as real.  I cannot deny that there is a sensation.  Does it definitely mean that this means there is a physical object out in a 'real world', which is a separate plane of reality from my experienced consciousness, and the sensation seen is created by electro-chemical signals in a brain, which has been stimulated by photons hitting the retinas in the back of my eye, which have come from a light source and rebounded some but not all of their visible wavelength...

It's not so much denying real, it's questioning what is real, and checking how much is assumed/believed/taken for granted.  In the case of seeing, I will NEVER in my life encounter that 'real' world.  But it's so deeply ingrained in me that the 'real' world exists, that I don't even think about it - in fact any suggestion that things are otherwise is received as preposterous.  But why?  My experience is the sensation, not the 'real' world which I 'know' (read: believe) is out there...

Just denying things isn't really of any use.  But really recognising the foundations upon which my understanding/knowledge/belief is based, and then testing those foundations... that's an interesting game.

"Duality is nonduality in a way".  Interesting phrase.  It ties in with something that I've been butting against recently: I keep trying to imagine some other place, plane, or experience as the ending point of the search.  But of course that's not the case.  It's this, here, now, so in many ways duality is nonduality.  It's the same thing, the exact same thing, just seen in a critically different manner.  Gateless gate

[Santhiphap]

So I read Leos Practical Guide to Enlightenment and I watched the Benefits of Enlightment video because I think maybe I can trick myself into another glimpse by replacing the fear with curiosity. 

The elimination of things like anxiety, depression, overthinking, suffering is truly motivating to keep on trying. 

One question that arised during whatching the video is what drives us after enlightenment? What matters? What do we do things for? Because Leo said that once enlightenment happened and we eliminated all the suffering we can finally do what we want to do. 

Edited February 19, 2017 by Santhiphap
grammar

[Telepresent]

On 18/02/2017 at 11:41 PM, Santhiphap said:

I am scared to forget and doubt it. I am trying to write down as much as possible to remind myself. Somehow I already start to lose some of the memory of what it REALLY was like. It wasnt the question of who I am that kicked it off. During the session I asked myself many times without results who I am or who the observer is. First word perceiver had a huge impact on me to understand more and that something must be perceivinig. But the thing that kicked it off was the thought of nothingness, trying to imagine nothing and then without being able to grasp it, just trying to be it. Trying to be something that I had no idea of what it might be but it must somehow be perceiving everything. I wonder why I didnt feel/experience any relation with that nothingness, it felt completely foreign. And the fear was like an existential fear of being sucked into the nothingness, not ever being able to get out again.

Ok, so let's not forget about this.

You know why?  Becuase memory is going to make it a different thing that it was.  So any thought you have about it or remembered sensation about it or remember idea about it will have swung and shifted.  But a little while ago this seemed incredibly important to you.  As little ago as a few hours ago.

As a burning brand from someone who isn't there... you can't feel relation with that nothingness.  Such is paradox