Russia and Ukraine making me feel nervous

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, no_name said:

That is not true. The fighting that started there in 2014 was because of russia.

Russia wanted to de-stabilize Ukraine after Maidan since it lost it’s influence in Ukraine when the pro-russian president was overthrown. Russia wanted to halt Ukraine’s integration with European Union, and so it started the conflict in the eastern Ukraine. There were lots of soldiers captured there with russian passports, and the ammunition and military equipment was coming from russia.

I don't doubt that Russia did a bunch of manipulation there.

[Hello from Russia]

What's funny is that I was ignoring this topic for all these 6-7 months because I didn't want to participate in any of these shitshows and just focus on my Life Purpose

I thought maybe we could have a great discussion here on Actualized Forum with people subscribing to all this advanced stuff, but it all came down to people from Ukrainian-Russian descent talking to each other and just being stubbornly biased against each other cherry picking arguments and constantly trying to skew each other arguments with very little intellectual ethics

I guess I'll just double down on avoiding this bullshit and free your attention to focus on some vatnics somewhere outside this place to argue against

[Hello from Russia]

Just now, Something Funny said:

I agree with that. My point was that the scale of it is much smaller than what Russia would like it to be. And that it doesn't translate to Ukrainian population as a whole and shouldn't be used as an excuse for any kind of military action.

Sure, bro, but I exactly said those exact words in like 10 of my posts already

But for some reason  you want to keep being combative against me

[Galyna]

1 minute ago, Hello from Russia said:

What's funny is that I was ignoring this topic for all these 6-7 months because I didn't want to participate in any of these shitshows and just focus on my Life Purpose

I thought maybe we could have a great discussion here on Actualized Forum with people subscribing to all this advanced stuff, but it all came down to people from Ukrainian-Russian descent talking to each other and just being stubbornly biased against each other cherry picking arguments and constantly trying to skew each other arguments with very little intellectual ethics

I guess I'll just double down on avoiding this bullshit and free your attention to focus on some vatnics somewhere outside this place to argue against

To me this topic is very emotional.

I understand that there is a big split now in the world and the main reason there is a war there is because people in power want to control the energetic resources in Europe as well. 

Trust me, if your both grandmothers lost everything in this war, your friends would be killed, you would talk and behave in the same manner. 

[no_name]

7 minutes ago, Hello from Russia said:

Sure, bro, but I exactly said those exact words in like 10 of my posts already

But for some reason  you want to keep being combative against me

Well, my point is, that as an intelligent being, that you keep claiming to be, why even bring up such non-sense? 

Like I said, on the 0-10 intelligence scale, from 0 being the dumbest and 10 being the wisest argument you could discuss about Ukraine war, the “nazi” problem in Ukraine is a 0.

It is equivalent of me posting this russian nazi picture and asking of you to explain it…

Edited October 9, 2022 by no_name

[Hello from Russia]

8 minutes ago, no_name said:

Well, my point is, that as an intelligent being, why even bring up such non-sense? 

Like I said, on the intelligence scale, from 0 being the dumbest and 10 being the wisest argument you could discuss about Ukraine war, the “nazi” problem in Ukraine is a 0.

I'll leave you guys here to discuss more intelligent topics then, sorry for my misbehaviour

11 minutes ago, Galyna said:

Trust me, if your both grandmothers lost everything in this war, your friends would be killed, you would talk and behave in the same manner. 

I would strive to be as objective and fair as possible even if I lost everyone and everything. The root cause anyway is not some country ot nationblock or even nazis, but something deeper and we don't have to have bullshit revanshism and hate each other just because some other people decided to send us to war against one another

 

Edited October 9, 2022 by Hello from Russia

[Galyna]

1 minute ago, Hello from Russia said:

I would strive to be as objective and fair as possible even if I lost everyone and everything. The root cause anyway is not some country ot nationblock or even nazis, but something deeper and we don't have to have bullshit revanshism and hate each other just because some other people decided to send us to war against one another

You are claiming to be an honest person who loves the truth. This statement has lie in it. 

If you are honest, your answer should be: Galyna, I do not truly know how I would behave if my family and friends would be the victims of this war. 

You've never had this experience, it does not happen in your direct experience, you have no clue, absolutely no fucking clue what is like to lose loved ones in this war, to lose kids, spouses and grandparents. 

My uncle lost everything: his home, his business he built for 10 years in Mariupol, now he has to survive in the western part of Ukraine. 

You have no clue how it is to be 50 years old and lose your life.

So please be more compassionate toward our Ukrainian people. It is so easy to speculate sitting in Moscow in a nice cozy apartment. 

I would run if I were you, they are going to use Russians as a meat for this war. 

[Hello from Russia]

2 minutes ago, Galyna said:

You are claiming to be an honest person who loves the truth. This statement has lie in it. 

If you are honest, your answer should be: Galyna, I do not truly know how I would behave if my family and friends would be the victims of this war. 

You've never had this experience, it does not happen in your direct experience, you have no clue, absolutely no fucking clue what is like to lose loved ones in this war, to lose kids, spouses and grandparents. 

My uncle lost everything: his home, his business he built for 10 years in Mariupol, now he has to survive in the western part of Ukraine. 

You have no clue how it is to be 50 years old and lose your life.

So please be more compassionate toward our Ukrainian people. It is so easy to speculate sitting in Moscow in a nice cozy apartment. 

I would run if I were you, they are going to use Russians as a meat for this war. 

You assume way too much about me

[Galyna]

20 minutes ago, Hello from Russia said:

You assume way too much about me

Ofc, assumptions is a part of your survival. 
 

Edited October 9, 2022 by Galyna

[Hello from Russia]

6 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

@Leo Gura @Hello from Russia arguments aside, I have a serious question. What stopped Russia from aligning itself with the west after the breakdown of USSR? I mean apart from greedy politicians and oligarchs who wanted to keep all of the power to themselves?

There were moments when relationships between Russia and EU / US were not that bad, even during Putin's rule. I think Russia and Nato even had a few combat trainings together. And in early 90s west used to send humanitarian aid to Russia. So why did it go so wrong eventually?

Why couldn't Russia also choose to slowly integrate with the west instead of treating them as an enemy? It having gas other natural resources surely would make it a desired partner. I am not sure about the US, but I feel like Europe would be quite happy if such scenario took place.

I feel like we just have way too much stage blue people here right now that were heavily propagandized during Cold War. Very similar to blue state boomers in US

There are a lot of conservative powers in Europe too and they are the biggest EU/NATO sceptics usually

I would personally love if Russia would work together with the West and be the part of EU/NATO

Maybe after ww3 or serious political changes in Russia we'll see it one day

Edited October 9, 2022 by Hello from Russia

[Hello from Russia]

@Galyna I am sorry for your loss and the loss of your family, but I think it's unfair to have me as a scapegoat for all these words and blamings only because I am the only person with Russian origins in this thread

My political views and views on life in general are very different from views of 99.9% Russians, so I'm not sure if I am the right person for all this

[Leo Gura]

12 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

@Leo Gura @Hello from Russia arguments aside, I have a serious question. What stopped Russia from aligning itself with the west after the breakdown of USSR? I mean apart from greedy politicians and oligarchs who wanted to keep all of the power to themselves?

There were moments when relationships between Russia and EU / US were not that bad, even during Putin's rule. I think Russia and Nato even had a few combat trainings together. And in early 90s west used to send humanitarian aid to Russia. So why did it go so wrong eventually?

Why couldn't Russia also choose to slowly integrate with the west instead of treating them as an enemy? Having gas and other natural resources  would surely make it a desired partner. I am not sure about the US, but I feel like Europe would be quite happy if such scenario took place.

From what I have seen, there were multiple factors:

1) The West, NATO, and the US were always hell-bent on maintaining hegemony and power. So they were never going to seriously allow Russia to be an equal partner or regain its former super-power status.

2) Putin couldn't really align himself with the West and maintain his authoritarian control. For Putin to align with the West he would have to buy into the whole notion of democratic norms, elections, term limits, free press, and that kind of stuff.

3) Putin's worldview is simply very different from the West. The West has an internationalist worldview whereas Putin has a nationalist worldview. Putin simply does not want to allow American neoliberalism and globalism, and West culture to infect and corrupt Russian culture. For Putin this is a question of preserving Russian nationalism, culture, and sovereignty.

4) The US broke its promises and kept expanding NATO further and further eastward, forcing Putin to make counter-moves to defend his position. Putin complained for many years that the US was encroaching on Russian defense agendas and not taking Russian concerns seriously. The US became impossible to negotiate with, according to Putin.

Edited October 9, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Hello from Russia]

3 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

@Hello from Russia idk, in my opinion the last decade of USSR was pretty lax on anti-west propaganda. Also western culture started  slipping into USSR as well: cola, rock music, jeans, etc.

And Gorbachev basically laid a pretty decent foundation for Russia to "open up" to the rest of the world instead of treating it as an enemy.

What I find the most surreal is that right now we bash on Western culture so heavily, yet what we do, how we behave, what we wear, what we want, etc is 80-90% of Western origin

They say Russia is 50% western/ 50% asian country culturally-wise, but I find it is more like 90%/10% honestly

Edited October 9, 2022 by Hello from Russia

[Leo Gura]

If you want an understanding of Putin's worldview, study Alexandr Dugin. They have the same worldview. Basically, they fundamentally disgree with liberalism and see it as a kind of oppressive force. What they want instead is a Russian nationalism.

This debate is basically the clash of the NATO vs Putin worldview.

Edited October 9, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Galyna]

Just now, Hello from Russia said:

@Galyna I am sorry for your loss and the loss of your family, but I think it's unfair to have me as a scapegoat for all these words and blamings only because I am the only person with Russian origins in this thread

My political views and views on life in general are very different from views of 99.9% Russians, so I'm not sure if I am the right person for all this

I am very sorry for being rude too.

I have a lot of Russian friends here in USA and I love them. 

I know it is not your choice to be born in the particular country. I was born in Russia myself in Siberia, but lived my youth years in Ukraine. 

I know our brains are heavily biased due to culture, religion and political views. 

 

[Hello from Russia]

4 minutes ago, Galyna said:

I am very sorry for being rude too.

I have a lot of Russian friends here in USA and I love them. 

I know it is not your choice to be born in the particular country. I was born in Russia myself in Siberia, but lived my youth years in Ukraine. 

I know our brains are heavily biased due to culture, religion and political views. 

 

?

I have a siberian cat 

Edited October 9, 2022 by Hello from Russia

[Galyna]

2 minutes ago, Hello from Russia said:

?

I have a siberian cat 

....

 

[Leo Gura]

13 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

@Leo Gura why do you think that Putin believes in and pursues some kind of ideology like that vs simply using it as a tool to manipulate people and gain more power?

Dude, he already has infinite power. He does not need more personal power or wealth. That's not what motivates him. He's already the richest man in the world. A few billion more will not do anything for him.

He's not in it for the money or fame. He's in it for Russia. He's a true believer in Russia. His life purpose is to make Russia as strong as possible for the good of the Russian people. His #1 priority is to uphold the sovereignty of Russia, so Russia does not get raped over a barrel by American wolves and their NATO allies and fucked like in WW2 where 20 million Russians died. Or fucked like in 1991 when the Soviet Union collapsed and American wolves moved in to rape the country.

He is also defending Russian culture against corruption from the gays and other such Western forces. He is a traditionalist. He does not want Western progressivism to infect Russian culture or politics and weaken it.

Putin manipulates people in the service of defending Russian sovereignty. Not because he's an evil greedy guy with nothing better to do.

You have to really appreciate the challenge he's taken on: He has to return Russia to its former glory without it all falling apart. This is an epic responsibility.

Edited October 9, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

16 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

In that case, didn't he fail miserably?

No, you just have a very narrow view.

Quote

His power as a dictator has never been questioned so much. Russia's military power has never been questioned so much. Russia's reputation has never been questioned so much.

He doesn't care about outsider opinion. That's not his aim. His aim is strengthening Russia according to his traditionalist, nationalist values and worldview.

Quote

Just look at the latest incident with Crimean Bridge. Russia used to say stuff like: "if anything happens to it, it will be a doomsday for Ukraine". And now it was blown up, Ukraine is low-key owning up to having done it, and nothing happens, official Russian media actually tries to undermine the importance of the incident. It makes Russia look really weak and bad.

The same with occupied territories. Russia used to say that attack on them will be the same as attack on Russia. A lot of them were taken back and nothing happened.

There are much bigger things at stake than some silly bridge or territory.

You think this war is bad, but consider the alternative. Was Putin just supposed to sit around and let the West slowly creep its way into Russia until Russia was too weak to mount any kind of struggle? That scenario was worse in Putin's worldview.

Creating a great power can involve breaking a few eggs and incurring some short-term pain.

I'm not saying he's guaranteed to succeed, but he's not the kind of guy who will just sit meekly in the corner out of fear. He's at least gonna try. Maybe it won't work. And maybe it will. It's still not clear what the West will do. Putin might be able to hold Crimea and his land bridge. Or get a neutral Ukraine. And that's good enough for him. Putin has the benefit of patience. He can wage this war for 5 years. Meanwhile NATO will get tired and move on to something else. All Putin has to do is be steady and persistent while Western neoliberalism gets distracted like a squirrel on crack.

Putin can also form stronger alliances with China and India, creating an alternative to the Western order.

Really look at it from Putin's POV. Just assume that your #1 job is to strengthen Russia, and also assume that Americas will try to fuck you as soon as you let them. Now what do you do? This is Putin's situation. Giving into Western values is not an option. Take that option off the table for yourself. See what options remain.

Edited October 9, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Fleetinglife]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

If you want an understanding of Putin's worldview, study Alexandr Dugin. They have the same worldview. Basically, they fundamentally disgree with liberalism and see it as a kind of oppressive force. What they want instead is a Russian nationalism.

This debate is basically the clash of the NATO vs Putin worldview.

The Theory of the Multipolar World edition from 2021 (originally first published in 2012) is your go-to manifesto of Dugin's to understand the ideological underpinnings behind this attempted regime-change operation turned full-scale war and it's wider, global geo-political power shift goals and global power equilibrium aims, in reference to China and Iran as well. 

It is almost basically a contemporary manifesto equivalent of chief Nazi ideologue Alfred Rosenberg's Myth of the 20th century book, that called for re-making the then post-WWI world international order of the Paris Peace Conferences of Triple Entente imperial powers and Soviet Union in the East in the 20th century with Germany in the center as the new revived historicist civilizational and cultural central power ushering in a new European, and subsequent world order based on of course inherent racial and cultural superiority away from the post-war economic boom shallow hyperconsumerist opulence and extreme decadence displayed in their view in the roaring 20's capitalist world attempt to construct a kind of new superficial, identitless cosmopolitan consumer and the Soviet world's attempt to construct a version of that through the cultural and racial leveling of all the international workers of the world into this homogenised utopic ideal of the "new Red man", with of course an added millennium and centuries long anti-semitic historical conspiracy theory, rant and narrative slant added to all this ?

Edited October 9, 2022 by Fleetinglife