Why are Jewish people so successful?

[Bobby_2021]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

It's always both.

Your ability to sit and work for extremely long hours is restricted by your genetics.

Your hormones and your entire biochemistry has to be carefully aligned inorder to allow you to "work hard". 

Culture won't be able to enforce unless your ingroup genetics allows for it. 

Attributing success to hard work is misleading. Almost everyone works  hard, from what they can. 

It's a bit like saying, success comes from drinking water and taking cold showers.

Of course you need to work hard and drink water on time to succeed. 

That's not what makes the difference though.

Differences are explained by genetics. Supreme genetics allows you to get work done *fast*.

[Carl-Richard]

5 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Your ability to sit and work for extremely long hours is restricted by your genetics.

Your hormones and your entire biochemistry has to be carefully aligned inorder to allow you to "work hard". 

Culture won't be able to enforce unless your ingroup genetics allows for it. 

Attributing success to hard work is misleading. Almost everyone works  hard, from what they can. 

It's a bit like saying, success comes from drinking water and taking cold showers.

Of course you need to work hard and drink water on time to succeed. 

That's not what makes the difference though.

Differences are explained by genetics. Supreme genetics allows you to get work done *fast*.

This is circular reasoning. Everything is impacted by genetics, so when you do something, it is impacted by genetics. Questions about genetics are completely uninteresting unless you're able to quantify exactly how much of it is genetics vs. environment.

Edited October 7, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[Bobby_2021]

41 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

This is circular reasoning. Everything is impacted by genetics, so when you do something, it is impacted by genetics.

I didn't say that everything is impacted by genetics.

What I said is that excellence in most domains is determined by genetics whether it individual/ or a collective group like jews for eg. 

Most people would get heart attacks by working for 40 hours a week. And then there is Elon Musk who fairly regularly pulls off double that number.

That shit simply won't happen because culture made you do it. 

And some people are born with workaholic genetics. Just like some people are born tall or white.

If you have High testosterone levels, then you will be able to sit and concentrate for hours in a row. 

Which might explain why men can work longer hours than women. Genetics.  

41 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Questions about genetics are completely uninteresting unless you're able to quantify exactly how much of it is genetics vs. environment.

>80% genetics & <20% environment. Roughly. 

See culture as a catalyst that incentives or gently encourages an event.

The real deal is genetics.

Edited October 7, 2022 by Bobby_2021

[Carl-Richard]

8 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

I didn't say that everything is impacted by genetics.

It is though

 

8 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

>80% genetics & <20% environment. Roughly.

In what context? In what way? Sources?

Edited October 7, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[Bobby_2021]

12 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

It is though

 

Dumb stuff like what you choose for dinner is not determined by genetics lmao.

But only a few people excel so it's easy to determine the cause for their success. Genetics determine a small minuta of the overall domains of nature. What you said is an exaggeration. 

15 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

what context? In what way? Sources?

Mostly from my observation. Nature for some reason adheres to the pareto principle quite well.  

I am not going to pull up precise numbers just to make conversations of genetics intersting to you like you said lol ?

[zurew]

Yeah this is crazy.

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2016/12/13/jewish-educational-attainment/

Quote

With an average of 13.4 years of schooling, Jews are the most highly educated of the world’s major religious groups. Nearly all Jewish adults ages 25 and older around the world (99%) have at least some primary education, and a majority (61%) has post-secondary degrees.

 

Here is an explanation from a Jewish person: https://www.quora.com/What-percentage-of-Nobel-prize-winners-are-Jewish

Quote

The reason is extremely simple and as a passionate jew who is extremely proud to walk along Nobel Prize promenade in israel I still believe that this statistic will not last by the time, now why ?

To make it short because all over last centuries 99% of the Jewish population around the world has been fully educated since age of 4–5

Hence when other population could not read and write, the Jewish people however fully mastered at least a basic knowledge through Torah and more specifically teachings about :

• Commercial laws and rules
• Property and belonging laws
• Interest practice and lending
• Family marriages and divorces
• Astronomy and spatial system generally
• Basic medical or health elementary rules

All of this because the Torah contains 613 laws that cover all of the day to day life to more and most complicated situations including the annual calendar based on sun and moon system to decide full moon and so on.

Now what I just quoted here and that could seem an heavy panel for at least high school or university level, is what EVERY Jewish boy studies starting 6–7 years old where we do already debate, argue, disput, oppose legal opinions and logics.

This training makes that when one do not wish to follow the usual religious path of rabbinical studies as he wishes and aspire to have a different lifestyle, what's left is to him is to exploit and use his acquired learning skill to another discipline.

This trained fellow will turn to philosophy, medicine, science etc and do what he knows to do = sitting and learning.

If you add to this component that during centuries we were not allowed to own any belonging such as homes or lands, it will explain that Jews has very few options, if not to become a Talmudic scholar or a trader he could be a lender (later called banker) or a scientist, musicians.

 

[CultivateLove]

17 hours ago, Tyler Robinson said:

Money is the root cause of evil. Careful.

Careful with parroting phrases without actually thinking them through

[AtheisticNonduality]

Can't help but think some of the people here are ranking the races by IQ now . . . 

[Carl-Richard]

4 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Dumb stuff like what you choose for dinner is not determined by genetics lmao.

Are you kidding? Of course it is. Ever heard of supertasters? And yes, genetics impacts everything. You wouldn't be able to exist without genetics.

 

4 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

But only a few people excel so it's easy to determine the cause for their success.

But you're not talking about statistical anomalies in a diverse set of people. You're talking about a group of people, and the primary thing that unites these people is a common culture and history. Therefore, if this group excels over some other group, the first way to explain it would be by looking at it culturally and historically, and there we have many good explanations (look at my link). Unless you believe that genetics were somehow the main cause of those group differences, you don't have a case.

 

4 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Mostly from my observation. Nature for some reason adheres to the pareto principle quite well.  

I am not going to pull up precise numbers just to make conversations of genetics intersting to you like you said lol ?

Ok, let me rephrase it: invoking genetics in a discussion is meaningless unless 1. you're referencing empirical data that go into specific numbers, or 2. you're making a specific argument for why genetics is particularly relevant in this case. For example, what selection pressures are you referring to? Which hormones do Jews have more of? Hearing about a group that excels at something and then saying "uh, must be genetics" is vacuous.

Edited October 7, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[Bobby_2021]

@Carl-Richard    

5 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

For example, what selection pressures are you referring to? Which hormones do Jews have more of?

1. I can guarantee that Jews have higher IQs than other races.

IQ is the best predictor for success in modern psychology.

This is a statistical fact. 

And IQ has a huge genetic component. There you go. 

2. Discussing IQ of races is banned on this forum. So I have restrictions on defending my point with elaborate numbers.

You will have to do a google search on Jew IQ and you will find a number of sources proving my point. 

5 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

You're talking about a group of people, and the primary thing that unites these people is a common culture and history. Therefore, if this group excels over some other group, the first way to explain it would be by looking at it culturally and historically, and there we have many good explanations (look at my link

3. The problem with this argument is that there are groups of people who grew up in similar cultures and huge pressures put upon them and they never quite excelled. 

Culture is the variable here. 

I am not denying cultural pressures. But many other cultures also had plenty of similar pleasures and they never quite excelled. When you take those into account, you realise that culture could have been either way and some culture may/may not have excelled. 

You can leave your farming job and do finance only if you already had the genetics to do finance.

Maybe this could make a good case of culture shaping the genetics. You cannot completely seperate both. But culture needs eons of time to have any significant influence on genetics. And culture is not arbitrary either. 

If some culture found out that they could make hundreds of millions of dollars by working hard they would absolutely do it. You might say that they were not privileged enough.

But there are a lot of cases of unprivileged cultures being more successful than privileged ones and vice versa. 

[Carl-Richard]

5 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

I am not denying cultural pressures. But many other cultures also had plenty of similar pleasures and they never quite excelled. When you take those into account, you realise that culture could have been either way and some culture may/may not have excelled. 

Like the literacy obligation in Judaism?

[Shawn Philips]

On 7/10/2022 at 0:11 AM, Leo Gura said:

Their culture tends to value working hard AND working smart. That's a powerful combo.

What can be the cause of their Media monopoly?

Why we dont see a pakistani, chinese, indian, mexican in their companies? It's more than they value working and are smart.

is that they only allow their people in their companies. Can we call this discrimination?

 

https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2022-05/17/21/asset/c92f52bba00b/sub-buzz-2761-1652822518-30.png

[Bobby_2021]

@Carl-Richard   

7 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Like the literacy obligation in Judaism?

As a case study, take 1000 students and mandate advanced calculus, chess, puzzles, multiple languages from the time they are 2 years old. 

Now do the same with students different cultures. You will get my point. 

I bet jews or asians will do better in such classes because they already had high IQs in the first place. 

And things are not so simple.

If mandating advanced education lead to better results in life, they would have already done it. 

Such people should do better in college overall.

Stem, finance education is extremely rigorous. That's why they select only high IQs to appear for the college. 

If you make it mandatory for everyone, then most kids would fail. It involves computations and cognitive powers which not everyone possesses. 

 

Edited October 8, 2022 by Bobby_2021
Grammar

[zurew]

1 hour ago, Bobby_2021 said:

If mandating advanced education lead to better results in life, they would have already done it. 

Its not just about regular education, but finding effective ways to teach.

One thing with Jews, is not just that they get education, but probably how they get their education. Having private teachers from an early age could make a massive difference. Regular people who go to school don't get nowhere near as much attention from teachers, because they generally have many classmates and the teacher don't have time to focus too much on one kid.

Edited October 8, 2022 by zurew

[StarStruck]

It is because of the esoteric knowledge that Jews have. The most important factor is that Jews have their own education and they don't allow non-Jews to enter these schools. These schools are very different than mainstream schools were they learn people to be sheeps. The Jews believe they are not sheeps, they are the chosen people.

Especially the Kaballah is worth studying. It is a systematic approach to self development.

 

 

Edited October 8, 2022 by StarStruck

[Tyler Robinson]

Jews are known for nepotism and inbreeding. 

Although these practices aren't exactly cool, they help Jews stick together for each other, keeps their unity intact and it's a form of tribalism 

Inbreeding is dangerous and that's why a lot of Jews have genetic and birth defects. 

On one hand they're successful but on the other, too much inbreeding can die out a species. Unfortunate actually. 

 

 

[Bobby_2021]

45 minutes ago, zurew said:

Its not just about regular education, but finding effective ways to teach.

What I am saying is that if we gave advanced education just like jews did, not everyone is going to make it thorough it.

Also your capability to learn is what makes more of a difference than effective methods of teaching.

A class of 20 students get different results with the same teacher. Now you might say they all come from backgrounds with different opportunities. But you can control for opportunities and still the results will correlate to their IQ. 

Equal opportunities and unequal results. 

On educational system:

With that said, our teachers and education system is trash. They themselves don't really understand what they are teaching, except for delivering surface level explanations and showing off a few slides. 

But sadly we are removing gifted classes because they are apparently racist by the woke left.

In reality they are racist against asian americans. 

Edited October 8, 2022 by Bobby_2021

[AtheisticNonduality]

This explains both sides competently but ultimately sides with Carl in its preferred explanation of the same data.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6526420/

[zurew]

15 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Also your capability to learn is what makes more of a difference than effective methods of teaching.

One thing that we know statistically, that people who learn in private schools are consistently outperforming students who learn in mainstream schools. I think given a normal level of IQ, and very effective methods of teaching most people could get through college.

15 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

A class of 20 students get different results with the same teacher. Now you might say they all come from backgrounds with different opportunities. But you can control for opportunities and still the results will correlate to their IQ. 

Yeah IQ definitely matters, however, I don't think we did enough experiments with effective teaching methods to conclude confidently , that the main drive is always about genetics. These experiments are very hard to do, because you need to control many variables at the same time. Many things can have an effect on a kid's education and learning ability

15 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

But sadly we are removing gifted classes because they are apparently racist by the woke left.

What classes are you reffering to?

 

Even if you want to go with IQ there are things that can affect your IQ at the very least negatively. if you don't get certain things or if you suffer certain things that might cause that your IQ won't be as high as it would have been otherwise. So if we would want to do a proper analysis of this issue, we would have to look at many many things.

Edited October 8, 2022 by zurew

[Bobby_2021]

3 minutes ago, zurew said:

What classes are you reffering to?

https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/nyc-schools-to-eliminate-controversial-gifted-talented-classes/3313300/

7 minutes ago, zurew said:

Yeah IQ definitely matters, however, I don't think we did enough experiments with effective teaching methods to conclude confidently , that the main drive is iq difference. These experiments are very hard to do, because you need to control many variables at the same time. Many things can have an effect on a kids education and learning ability

Teaching methods useless in my opinion, assuming that the teacher is decently good, and knows the subject and they are talking about. Not some bum.

I personally payed money to some teacher online because my college classes were taught by dumb teachers who couldn't even clear my doubts. So I do understand the value of having good teachers. But there is a limit to how good you can teach. 

A 130 IQ student with an Internet connection will outsmart someone who is 15 points lower than them even if they had a private tutor. 

I am sure that other variables do have a significant impact, like living standards, stress and nutrition.

But once those are controlled you don't see too much difference in the results. There are plenty of examples from which groups of people having high IQ but grew up in poverty outsmart their privileged peers. 

Talking about all of these factors without losing its essence in a single thread is hard.

I am always for equal opportunities.

I am also for unequal results.