We love our cheese!

[at_anchor]

I've been trying to improve my diet fo the past many years with little to no success. Now I know that milk products are terrible, although I forgot exactly why. Yeah, they have a lot of choresterol, lactose and casein which are said to cause health problems, but I'm still not entirely convinced. Also, it is not ethical to drink milk meant for a baby cow. I don't buy milk products, but when I'm offered some cake or cheese at home, I rarely say no and stick to it for long. Life is such that I probably won't be able to stop consuming the wrong food articles for the rest of my life.

Do you have anything to add on this topic? If not, it's fine. Saying that something is unhealthy isn't gonna make someone stop consuming it, even with all the evidence and reasons laid flat on the ground for you. There are actual physical obstacles sometimes.

[Yarco]

There's a lot worse vices you can have in life besides cheese. 

Mediterranean diet (Greece, Italy) is quite healthy and people there live a long time. Despite eating a fair amount of cheese, olive oil, wine, etc. Simply not eating a ton of red meat or processed foods already puts you ahead of most people in Western countries.

Also not all cheese is created equal. A super artificial Kraft Singles slice is not the same thing as feta. The first one, they legally have to label as "cheese product" 

Something like Camembert or Brie vs. a $5 brick of processed cheddar are entirely different products. They both start with milk, but everything about the process of creating them, their nutritional profile, and how your body handles them is different.

[at_anchor]

@Yarco Great, I didn't know so much about cheese before reading your post. Camembert looks so delicious I simply have to try it.

But red meat might actually be more healthy than milk and milk products, I don't know. Milk has more cholesterol, lactose, casein and so on. Plus, it is just as unethical, cause a baby cow gets taken away from her mother so that they can milk her dry. I don't know, maybe there is more milk than needed so maybe we milk what is left.

[Michael569]

Cheese might be one of the foods where the benefits might outweigh the potential negative outcomes. (when eaten in moderation) 

When eaten in moderation, cheese consumption can offer an additional protection from colorectal cancer and has, I believe even been shown to mediate levels of LDL cholesterol. 

Small amounts mean around 25 grams a day which is very little if you weight it up. Go for high quality and avoid any form of highly processed shit cheese. Pay for premium. Use it as a taste additive and enjoy it when you have it

Ofcourse this argument does not account for ethics. I was talking purely about health implications. 

Edited October 3, 2022 by Michael569

[Superfluo]

@Michael569 Am I wrong or was your view of dairy products different some time ago? What made you change your mind?

[Michael569]

10 hours ago, Superfluo said:

 Am I wrong or was your view of dairy products different some time ago? What made you change your mind?

yeah if you read my comments from 5 years ago, lot of it would seem like someone else was writing that  

What made me change my mind was just becoming more comfortable interpreting the longitudinal data and also relaxing lot of my previous anxieties about foods, food groups, toxins etc. I feel like in many things I've come back full circle. I've generally taken a step back from many things and have been taking a more chilled approach.

Mentally speaking I feel much better not obsessing as much anymore. I believe such approach is also better for my clients so that I can offer less biased perspective. My diet is still about 95% plant-based I would say but I'm not giving myself hard time for occasional deviations anymore. 

Also, with cheese generally, unless people are loading 200grams of it on pizza each day or eating a block of cheddar I don't think it will lead to negative health outcomes (for non-allergic people). 

Cheese can actually often be proxy for healthy diet when used in a sort of Mediterranean type of eating (as pointed out by @Yarco above) People in traditional MeDi environment would eat cheese with lots of vegetables, oily fish, olive oil, legumes and on wholemeal products. In such combinations, more cheese often meant more fibre and more polyphenols so it would turn out to be beneficial, even tho (maybe) the positive health outcomes actually have nothing to do with the cheese itself and everything to do with it being a proxy for other healthy foods....maybe. If having more cheese allows you to have a bigger portion of vegetables, then go for it. 

I have a huge issue with modern nutritional reductionism such as "all seeds oils are bad bro" or "it is the gluten bro" "keto is the best bro, carbs are evil". I think we need to take a step back and look at the overall constitution of the diet rather than bickering over individual groups. Certain groups should still be treated with caution (red meat, sugar-sweetened beverages, trans fats,  very high-fat dairy consumed in very high amounts etc) but overall I am kinda gradually leaning towards food guidelines model (with slight modification) as I see that the most realistic way to make members of general public who are not health nerds to eat healthily and not become a victim of premature loss of human life due to poor dietary choices. Unless there are existing ethical concerns, for example about not wanting to eat animal produce. Such a decision supersedes the above. 

Hope that makes sense

Edited October 4, 2022 by Michael569

[Superfluo]

@Michael569 Thanks

[Osaid]

Quote

I have a huge issue with modern nutritional reductionism such as "all seeds oils are bad bro" 

@Michael569

What's your take on seed oils?

More specifically, these concerns:

-The unbalanced omega 6 to 3 ratio

-How easily it oxidizes

-How high it is in polyunsaturated fat

-The extreme processing it often goes through

Thanks in advance.

[Michael569]

3 hours ago, Osaid said:

What's your take on seed oils?

I am yet to take a proper deep dive into the topic myself, it is planned for early next year as a part of my social media strategy so I'll know more then. But as of today I don't believe they are harmful, in fact they are probably health-promoting. 

3 hours ago, Osaid said:

The unbalanced omega 6 to 3 ratio

Low intake of Omega 3 appears to be a much bigger issue than high intake of Omega 6. People with highest consumption of Linolenic Acid (main Omega 6 in oils) consistently show better health outcomes for heart disease, Alzheimer's & dementia, cancer and diabetes. I no longer think the ratio is important. Sufficient intake of Omega 3 is more important. 

3 hours ago, Osaid said:

How easily it oxidizes

Not something I'm concerned with anymore. If the oxidization was harmful, we would again see people who consume the highest amounts of seed oils have the worst health.....and we'll they don't. Once you start replacing saturated fats with polyunsaturated fats, people get better (statistically speaking). We keep hearing about non-oxidising saturated fats yet highest consumption of saturated fats is associated with poorer health outcomes...I wonder why that is/ 

3 hours ago, Osaid said:

How high it is in polyunsaturated fa

why is that a bad thing? 

3 hours ago, Osaid said:

The extreme processing it often goes through

half of the stuff we eat these days is processed but that does not make it bad either. Tofu is processed, dark chocolate is processed, canned mackerel is processed, and nutritional yeast is processed. I wouldn't say any of those are particularly unhealthy. Processing doe snot necessarily make foods worse. In fact, sometimes it makes certain nutrients more bioavailable and allows for a higher concentration of other components. It is overindulgence on sugar-loaded process foods or those that contain trans fats that I see as the real issue. Fibre deficiency as well perhaps. 

But I am not yet as confident on this topic as I'd like to be. I would suggest you watch some of "The Nutrivore"'s content if you want to learn more from someone who has gone down this rabbit hole. 

Edited October 5, 2022 by Michael569

[Osaid]

14 hours ago, Michael569 said:

Low intake of Omega 3 appears to be a much bigger issue than high intake of Omega 6. People with highest consumption of Linolenic Acid (main Omega 6 in oils) consistently show better health outcomes for heart disease, Alzheimer's & dementia, cancer and diabetes. I no longer think the ratio is important. Sufficient intake of Omega 3 is more important. 

Interesting. I also think the whole omega 6 ratio thing needs to be looked at much more holistically, and it's especially tricky when it comes to diets.

Nuts also have relatively higher omega 6. I find it hard to believe that something as nutritionally dense as nuts would be "bad" or "inflammatory" because of this unbalanced ratio. Actually, if we take nuts for example, nuts have a lot of anti-inflammatory compounds in addition to the unbalanced omega 6. I don't think we need to be worried about inflammation when eating nuts, that doesn't make sense to me, and I don't think anyone has experienced inflammation from eating nuts. There are compounds in nuts which we need to consider in addition to the omega 6. I think we have to be more holistic by looking at what is also being eaten alongside certain fats, like omega 6 fatty acids.
 

14 hours ago, Michael569 said:

Not something I'm concerned with anymore. If the oxidization was harmful, we would again see people who consume the highest amounts of seed oils have the worst health.....and we'll they don't. Once you start replacing saturated fats with polyunsaturated fats, people get better (statistically speaking). We keep hearing about non-oxidising saturated fats yet highest consumption of saturated fats is associated with poorer health outcomes...I wonder why that is/ 

Well, I would wonder where the saturated fats are coming from and what they are being eaten with. Same thing for seed oils.

I actually read an article from The Nutrivore recently, and there was an interesting point about how vitamin E can actually slow down the rate at which fat oxidizes. It really emphasizes the idea of being holistic and seeing what is being consumed alongside certain fats.

14 hours ago, Michael569 said:

why is that a bad thing? 

Same reasoning as above. Polyunsaturated fats are less stable so they oxidize easier which leads to increased free radicals.

14 hours ago, Michael569 said:

half of the stuff we eat these days is processed but that does not make it bad either. Tofu is processed, dark chocolate is processed, canned mackerel is processed, and nutritional yeast is processed. I wouldn't say any of those are particularly unhealthy. Processing doe snot necessarily make foods worse. In fact, sometimes it makes certain nutrients more bioavailable and allows for a higher concentration of other components. It is overindulgence on sugar-loaded process foods or those that contain trans fats that I see as the real issue. Fibre deficiency as well perhaps. 

This is true, but seed oils in particular tend to have an especially concerning processing which involves hexanes and deodorizing methods and extremely high temperatures.

14 hours ago, Michael569 said:

But I am not yet as confident on this topic as I'd like to be. I would suggest you watch some of "The Nutrivore"'s content if you want to learn more from someone who has gone down this rabbit hole. 

I've seen a few articles of theirs here and there, I will definitely look into them deeper though.

[Michael569]

10 hours ago, Osaid said:

Nuts also have relatively higher omega 6. I find it hard to believe that something as nutritionally dense as nuts would be "bad

Great example. I agree with everything you said there. It is very likely that the same compound that makes nuts so healthy is the same compound we blame in oils as "toxic"  , linolenic acid. There might be other polyphenolic compounds but who's to say they are not in seed oils either? 

10 hours ago, Osaid said:

Polyunsaturated fats are less stable so they oxidize easier which leads to increased free radicals.

Yes, maybe they do. Let's agree that they do. But then you gotta ask "what is the concern with oxidation?" 

• Is it a higher cancer risk? - PUFAs reduce cancer risk 
• Is it a higher heart disease risk? - PUFAs reduce heart disease risk 

And you have to assume that in those studied where food frequency questionnaires are taken, they account for the fact that most people use PUFAs for cooking and frying so the oxidative factor is already involved. And yet they still come on top of saturates. 

10 hours ago, Osaid said:

This is true, but seed oils in particular tend to have an especially concerning processing which involves hexanes and deodorizing methods and extremely high temperatures

Does not change the outcomes we discussed. Despite all of that, these oils do promote better health outcomes for people. Regardless of the mechanism. Regardess of the processing. Also, how do you know these methods make them unhealthier? Maybe they stabilise them in a way. Maybe they trigger internal antioxidant response to a degree that they actually benefit us. Like a hormetic effect. All foods do this. In order for an organism to thrive, it needs to be frequently put under the stress of adaptation. .....maybe all that oxidation actually somehow benefits us. Who knows. Either way, it does not seem to matter. 

 But let's take another perspective. How much oil does an average person eat a day? A tablespoon? Maybe 2? It is a tiny proportion of calories. 

Now compare that to the number of saturated fats people eat and how much foods like steak, dairy and eggs take up from their caloric volume. Lot of these foods are still made on oils. Yes olive oil but if I am being honest, I don't think there is much difference between EVOO and safflower or rapeseed oil. It has just been marketed way more and tastes slightly better. Maybe the vit E content is also slightly higher which is definitely beneficial. 

But I don't assume to know the full scope yet. This is a very difficult topic to get into because it requires a high level of understanding of statistics and research methods as well as the knowledge of cardiology.  This is a topic where I don't quite like the "see how you feel" approach because you don't "feel" plaque building up inside your arteries. We just have too much evidence pointing the way towards saturated fats being harmful for us to just discount it and rely on carnivore quacks on the internet and their mechanistic speculative theories. 

I think in here, we need to actually rely on empirical data and learn from the stories of those who went before us. And so far, the stories are mostly pointing towards one way. 

But hey, to each their own. In the end we are all masters of our own fate. 

Edited October 6, 2022 by Michael569

[Michael569]

45 minutes ago, Judy2 said:

Could you perhaps give a quick summary on which oils you'd recommend using? How would you rate olive/rapeseed/sunflower seed/avocado/linseed oil? I don't know about olive oil, but when considering the omega 3 to 6 ratio i heard that rapeseed oil is technically ideal, whereas sunflower is just way out of balance. 

I have to admit, I don't know know the full scope of that answer yet and cautious to do such recommendation on a public platform. You could go to Nutrivore's discord and ask him to make a video on that, maybe offer a $20 buck donation and I'm sure he'll gladly do it in his next life stream. I don't really know anyone else on the internet who has gone as deep and offered so much content into as he did. Maybe Avi Bitterman could do that as well. 

Everyone else seems to be cherry picking or biased into mechanisms. I definitely wouldn't trust populists like Eric Berg or Paul Saladino do give the answer. These creators are too biased into single perspective because it pays their bills to say certain things and omit other.

You actually want  a proper nerd who is really looking deep into this stuff. Someone who sucks at marketing, has low view-count and low subs number. That's the type of person you should be looking for in crucial topics like these. 

Edited October 6, 2022 by Michael569

[Thought Art]