Hourly pay & occupation chart

[Ethan1]

Working on a Google Spread Sheet for hourly pay comparison. Figured I'd share if anybody wants to add on to it let me know. 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19iDuv0cErL1uZse39MemTydHzMGb7MAAo7_TAMEQ3L4/edit?usp=sharing

• Hourly pay comparison
• Weekly pay comparison (10 - 40 hours a week)
• Monthly pay comparison (40 - 160 hours a month)
• Minimum wage
• Lowest paying jobs
• Highest paying jobs
  
  I recognize it's a moving target with inflation & the present value of the dollar constantly changing. Figured it would offer some value to people making decisions on jobs. 

Edited September 30, 2022 by Ethan1

[Yarco]

This is impressive, great work!

I think the biggest takeaway is that if you're working for an hourly rate, you're always going to be capped. 99% of jobs make less than $100/hour. That means it's almost impossible to make more than $200,000 gross per year.

You won't find many jobs above $50/hour that don't require 6 - 10+ years of schooling (doctor, lawyer.) So for the average person it's extremely difficult to make more than even $100,000 gross per year.

The only people who can make significantly more than $100/hour don't sell their time by the hour. They run businesses.

I really realized this recently when I was looking at $1.6M property, trying to make the math work on how I could possibly afford it. Even if my wife and I both made $100,000/year and saved like crazy, we wouldn't be able to do it. Even if we saved up the minimum 20% down payment over several years ($320,000), I don't know if we could make the monthly payments without stretching ourselves really thin. Payments would still be $8,000+/month!

What's crazy is that in my area, $1.6M would buy a 50-acre ranch. But if you live in somewhere like San Francisco or New York, that'll only get you an average house! In lots of cities if you don't have a household income of $200k, you're never going to be able to buy, you're stuck as a renter forever.

It's nearly impossible to break above middle-upper class and afford the stuff of the truly wealthy, unless you start your own business and stop charging for time. If you want to ever own more than an average single-family home, entrepreneurship is the only way to go.

[Ethan1]

Thanks Yarco, here to grow and help other like minds too. Free information to share. 

Yeah, I mean the earning potential with a job is limited. Yet higher status jobs tend to be higher earning jobs in most cases.  

Only a few outliers.. Welders can make over a $100s an hour. Literally paid some guy over here in lower alabama $250 to weld a frame. 2 hours & material. That's low here apparently.

It's funny because if you ask the average student why they go into debt for a particular degree for a particular job it's usually for the projected earning potential or chasing women. Yet most don't really factor in the total cost and present value of future cashflows then discount it back to a present value. Let alone the accrued debt and time invested that later locks the person in with golden handcuffs. Sucks but it is what it is. 

Yeah, that is kinda bizzare whole the market value in one location can be so vastly different. I mean, where's the real value behind the property. The value of the wood & fixtures stuff on land is probably the same value in other locations. Yet the idea of owning the land in that location. Just the idea of the geographical location and space. 

What's stupid is how the amortization schedules work towards paying on that $1.6M alpacha farm and how 30 years is normal. I mean, why can't I get a 40 year mortgage or a 200 year mortgage? The long term total amount of interest when paying on the note ends up being double the cost. Yet I get the whole concept of the time value of money. Still blows my mind that $1.6M farm could be $3M from all the interest accrued. 
 

The real question is the value of time? How much is your hour worth? 
I'm still trying to make sense of the concept of measuring time. What happens if time slows down or speeds up. Say earth starts orbiting faster around that big ass sun. Will people still be compensated the same for their hour? Say that hour felt like 5 hours. Would people even have the awareness to know that time is moving differently. If one minute becomes different. Or being frozen in a time loop. Time is an illusion? 

I mean, it's all a mindset. Just based on how determined and the price to be paid. All opportunity costs for the pursuit of wealth.  

Edited October 2, 2022 by Ethan1

[Yarco]

13 hours ago, Ethan1 said:

What's stupid is how the amortization schedules work towards paying on that $1.6M alpacha farm and how 30 years is normal. I mean, why can't I get a 40 year mortgage or a 200 year mortgage? The long term total amount of interest when paying on the note ends up being double the cost. Yet I get the whole concept of the time value of money. Still blows my mind that $1.6M farm could be $3M from all the interest accrued. 

Yup all good points!

This is actually becoming a thing in some countries in Europe. Multigenerational mortgages.

Personally I hope it doesn't become a common practice in North America. I find it really unethical, like you're selling your kids into debt slavery, so you can enjoy the benefits of their future work here in the present.

Sure at least they'll own a house to live in. But you're tying them to a specific house, and forcing them to live and work in a specific city that they might not want to.

Ideally housing prices appreciate over time enough that it's a good investment. Your kids can just sell the home and cancel out the mortgage, and be left with a profit. But when you're talking about inter-generational time frames, risk starts to really increase and things get weird.

You don't know what bustling city is going to have a bunch of its major employers close down, or some other socioeconomic factors will happen, that will turn it into the next Detroit.

Or you take out a 200 year mortgage on a property in Florida, California, Louisiana and it gets taken out by a flood, earthquake, or wildfire, and your insurance company refuses to cover it?

13 hours ago, Ethan1 said:

The real question is the value of time? How much is your hour worth? 
I'm still trying to make sense of the concept of measuring time. What happens if time slows down or speeds up. Say earth starts orbiting faster around that big ass sun. Will people still be compensated the same for their hour? Say that hour felt like 5 hours. Would people even have the awareness to know that time is moving differently. If one minute becomes different. Or being frozen in a time loop. Time is an illusion? 

I mean, it's all a mindset. Just based on how determined and the price to be paid. All opportunity costs for the pursuit of wealth.  

I think this already happens in a relative sense. The earth isn't literally slowing down. But ask any older person and they'll tell you how the days and years start to go by faster and faster. I'm already starting to notice it in my 30s.

I remember as a kid, having the summer off from school felt like an entire year. Now being older, it's 2022, you blink, and it's almost 2023 already.

Not only that, but as you get older, you've got less energy. In most cases you work slower, so you can only do 6 hours worth of work in 8 hours, compared to how productive you were in your 20s. Or you've only got enough energy and mental capacity to work 6 hours a day at most. The older you get, the less time you've got left, and the more precious of a resource it becomes.

Edited October 2, 2022 by Yarco

[Ethan1]

I plan to eventually populate more of the cells with job occupations and add more categories. Also, I plan on adding more for the other categories such as online jobs.  

With interest rates being as low as they are, anything is possible.

 

Quote

Or you take out a 200 year mortgage on a property in Florida, California, Louisiana and it gets taken out by a flood, earthquake, or wildfire, and your insurance company refuses to cover it?

Yeah, that would be both funny and unfortunate for the person who thought they were covered. Still I'm sure when 30 year mortgages started to become normalized that people were thinking that's a long stretch of time.

1920s 3 - 5 year mortgages

1930's 15-20 year mortgages

1940's - now. 30 year mortgages

2022 + Sell your soul for that damn mortgage. I guess people 

What's odd is the word mortgage technically means death pledge in like french or spanish or something. 
Mort = Death? 
Age = Length of time? 

Quote

I think this already happens in a relative sense. The earth isn't literally slowing down. But ask any older person and they'll tell you how the days and years start to go by faster and faster. I'm already starting to notice it in my 30s.

I question how time perception works. How the internal clock functions with regards to awareness. Like doing a super boring task it feels like time moves extremely slow. Working a fun task it's like time slips between the fingers. Yet time is supposed to be a linear thing. 

I know there was some movie called In Time about time being a currency. Instead of cash they were literally trading time. Talk about a paradigm shift. Where literally time is being bought and sold. Selling your life force energy. 

Edited October 3, 2022 by Ethan1

[Clabber Girl]

The pay for accountants and financial managers is spot on. 

[Yarco]

7 hours ago, Clabber Girl said:

The pay for accountants and financial managers is spot on. 

If you think the numbers are Inaccurate, why not give numbers that you think are more accurate? Preferably with stats from Glassdoor or similar to back it up. Instead of just an unproductive eye-rolling emoji...

Seems accurate to me. When I left my accounting job 5 years ago, kids in AP/AR straight out of university were making $40 - 45k. Team leads 70k. Finance analysts were making $70k+, I know one retired 90k+. Head of finance and a handful of senior finance analysts, head of audit, head of payroll, etc were making $100k+ easily. This is in a company known for underpaying in terms of salary because we also got $10k+ a year in profit sharing.

Don't be bitter that you're being underpaid. Go ask for a raise or find a better job lol.

Edited October 5, 2022 by Yarco

[Ethan1]

I've got it setup so anyone can edit or add if they wish

So if I did something wrong, welcome to fix it. Truly don't care. I just figured some people might find value and help using it for quick glance

Edited October 6, 2022 by Ethan1

[Clabber Girl]

On 10/5/2022 at 5:25 AM, Yarco said:

If you think the numbers are Inaccurate, why not give numbers that you think are more accurate? Preferably with stats from Glassdoor or similar to back it up. Instead of just an unproductive eye-rolling emoji...

Seems accurate to me. When I left my accounting job 5 years ago, kids in AP/AR straight out of university were making $40 - 45k. Team leads 70k. Finance analysts were making $70k+, I know one retired 90k+. Head of finance and a handful of senior finance analysts, head of audit, head of payroll, etc were making $100k+ easily. This is in a company known for underpaying in terms of salary because we also got $10k+ a year in profit sharing.

Don't be bitter that you're being underpaid. Go ask for a raise or find a better job lol.

I wasn't being sarcastic

[Ethan1]

@Clabber Girl Thank you for mentioning it was spot on! Kinda just entered what google suggested

@YarcoTrying to make up my mind which occupation to go into partly was the reason I've been working on this. I've got a finance degree. Haven't applied it yet. Finance being so broad it kind of gets overwhelming all the different options. Any recommendations on stuff you find interesting? Especially with this evolving global marketspace.

Edited October 7, 2022 by Ethan1

[Yarco]

19 hours ago, Clabber Girl said:

I wasn't being sarcastic

Okay sorry, my bad then. Only seen that emoji used to express sarcasm

1 hour ago, Ethan1 said:

@YarcoTrying to make up my mind which occupation to go into partly was the reason I've been working on this. I've got a finance degree. Haven't applied it yet. Finance being so broad it kind of gets overwhelming all the different options. Any recommendations on stuff you find interesting? Especially with this evolving global marketspace.

Honestly I'm not that in tune with what finance actually is, in contrast to accounting and economics. I only had to take 2 finance courses for my degree so I have a pretty narrow idea of what  it's all about, and what kind of job you can get with it outside of banking.

The more entrepreneurship and independence you can work into it, the higher your earning potential is, kind of what I alluded to above. But that also comes with increased risk and uncertainty.

I'd probably get whatever job I could get to start paying the bills. Like an insurance actuary, investment banking, credit manager, in the treasury dept at a large company, or even just a loan officer at a bank.

Then on the side build something finance-related but that you 100% own and control. Like a website, blog, or Youtube channel about personal finance. A course on investing. Or being some kind of consultant. (I never really understood how people get into consulting without tons of experience though.)

Hopefully the side hustle is something you're passionate about, and eventually grows to be large enough to quit your traditional 9 to 5.

I'm trying to think future-proofing against AI and automation for the next 40 years in Finance, and I don't know what that would look like. Definitely want to avoid the low-level data entry type stuff. There'll probably always be a need for more analytical positions where people interpret the numbers and present them to non-finance people. At least in our lifetimes. But the competition for those remaining positions might get pretty fierce.

[Clabber Girl]

@Ethan1 I am a Senior Accountant at a property management company and I can tell you its pros and cons:

• Pros- lots of opportunity/jobs, good salary/benefits, cushy, flexible, 
• Cons- boring, not meaningful, cog in the wheel type of work, in an office all day, sitting at a desk makes for an unhealthy lifestyle, can be VERY stressful and lead to an unhealthy lifestyle or work/life unbalance

Personally, I dont plan on doing this type of work forever. I am buying rentals and want to diversify my income streams with rentals, salary, and stocks so I can leave accounting world before too long!

[Ethan1]

On 10/7/2022 at 0:29 PM, Yarco said:

I'd probably get whatever job I could get to start paying the bills. Like an insurance actuary, investment banking, credit manager, in the treasury dept at a large company, or even just a loan officer at a bank.

@Yarco Yeah, I'm likely to apply for something on Usajobs.gov and see what beginner financial analyst jobs are out there. Start from the bottom or something. Truly I'm wanting to find something more meaningful that really leaves a mark on this world. 

 

On 10/7/2022 at 0:29 PM, Yarco said:

The more entrepreneurship and independence you can work into it, the higher your earning potential is, kind of what I alluded to above. But that also comes with increased risk and uncertainty.

Yeah, I took a couple entrepreneurships courses and attempted at starting an FBA business a few years back. Created a brand and sold a couple thousand units of inventory but the market was too competitive and over saturated. I was selling at a loss b/c of price wars. Still tons of opportunities but the amount of time it takes to get to market is months. I'm just skeptical with the supply chains. However, most of the suppliers are attempting to are attempting to cut out the middleman and dominate the entire market. Tons of businesses on Amazon are Chinese owned. Let me know if you know any low risk & high return opportunities lol 

 

On 10/7/2022 at 0:29 PM, Yarco said:

I'm trying to think future-proofing against AI and automation for the next 40 years in Finance, and I don't know what that would look like. Definitely want to avoid the low-level data entry type stuff. There'll probably always be a need for more analytical positions where people interpret the numbers and present them to non-finance people. At least in our lifetimes. But the competition for those remaining positions might get pretty fierce.

I'm in the same boat with you on this one. I'm attempting to learn how to scrape data from sites. My last job was data entry. I mean, I enjoyed the flexibility, but it was about as fun as watching paint dry. Some of it was interesting with uploading data to ArcGIS and interpolating data. The whole manually entering data for a couple months gets pretty old quick. Sitting at coffee shops was about the best part. I mean, if you can automate a data entry job then what's the point of hiring a group of people to populate a spreadsheet. I was literally doing that at the last job which saved the company probably hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars. Didn't get compensated for it too. I kind of shot myself in the foot for stretching outside the scope of the projects to make things for efficient. However, that goes back to your main point with finding a future-proof jobs from AI and automation.. 

 

 

On 10/11/2022 at 9:01 PM, Clabber Girl said:

@Ethan1 I am a Senior Accountant at a property management company and I can tell you its pros and cons:

• Pros- lots of opportunity/jobs, good salary/benefits, cushy, flexible, 
• Cons- boring, not meaningful, cog in the wheel type of work, in an office all day, sitting at a desk makes for an unhealthy lifestyle, can be VERY stressful and lead to an unhealthy lifestyle or work/life unbalance

Personally, I dont plan on doing this type of work forever. I am buying rentals and want to diversify my income streams with rentals, salary, and stocks so I can leave accounting world before too long!

@Clabber Girl I was wanting to get into property management when I was in college. Still considering such an option. I love the aspects of building science and real estate development with the creativity aspects of real estate. I could see CAD & estimator jobs being interesting ones.

I feel you on the not so meaningful aspects of property management. I'm sure that's majority of finance related careers too. That's kind of what I'm wanting to better understand. I've talked to plenty of people that are making good money however the money becomes the main purpose of showing up. I just don't want the damn golden handcuffs get in the way of living a meaningful life.

Question: Curious, if money weren't a thing and you had all your financial needs met fully what would you pursue? (In a realistic world)

Edited October 13, 2022 by Ethan1

[Kshantivadin]

thank you Ethan! 

[Clabber Girl]

Property Management is still a good option as long as you find it meaningful and you enjoy it! Its an industry really in desperate need of good managers, leaders, and visionaries as this job is not easy and has lots of room for improvement. It can add positively to other peoples lives as well.

As for me... Honestly I am not sure what I would like to do if money was not a need. This is a question I have asked myself for the past year now and I keep getting mixed signals/different answers....  I do have a few rental properties so I dont see my life continuing in a linear path in accounting but I do like the real estate industry but I also dont plan on being in an office all day either...