Substitution for Truth?

[axiom]

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

Can you be enlightened  without knowing what enlightenment is ?

You can't be enlightened if you know what enlightenment is. 

You can't be enlightened if you don't know what enlightenment is. 

There is what seems to be enlightenment, and it is without a you.

Really, there is no enlightenment, and there is no you. There is only this.

28 minutes ago, Adamq8 said:

Have you ever considered the possibility that enlightenment might just be a "religious" fiction too?

If the self begins to form concepts around it, it becomes part of the personal storyline, part of the dream. 

Edited September 29, 2022 by axiom

[Breakingthewall]

you cannot know the truth because the truth is everything. you can realize that what is not everything, that is, what is limited, is a lie.

the truth is everything. what's the use of knowing that? It's the same as not knowing. but it is another thing to stop being limited and become everything. So, you live the truth, and it's nothing you can imagine, no matter how much imagination you have

[RMQualtrough]

It's all a massive cope.

I do feel confident that there isn't anywhere to go. And if you knew the truth you'd know there isn't actually a you being to know that truth at all... And it follows then that it doesn't really matter. As there isn't ever anyone knowing anything OR not knowing anything anyway, as there isn't anyone full stop.

[Someone here]

12 hours ago, Adamq8 said:

Have you ever considered the possibility that enlightenment might just be a "religious" fiction too?

 

 

 

Yes, totally. But I don't believe enlightenment is a myth. Its a real experience that you can have. 

Now,granted ,There will be different levels of enlightenment. Or let me say that different people will have different explanation of ‘enlightenment. So that will be people specifics..

At the beginners level it could be situational enlightenment that they are in at the moment of enlightenment.. more like how we grow at different stages in life.. when we start learning alphabets to sentences to essays.

The fairly enlighten ones will have more wholistic control as compared to someone who just started on the path of spirituality.

So you must have the experience yourself in order to understand  .its like trying to describe color to a blind person. Not gonna work. 

[Someone here]

12 hours ago, axiom said:

You can't be enlightened if you know what enlightenment is. 

You can't be enlightened if you don't know what enlightenment is. 

There is what seems to be enlightenment, and it is without a you.

Really, there is no enlightenment, and there is no you. There is only this.

You are falling into the neo-advaita trap .

Obviously you exist. Touch you'd body .feel your sense of self . There you go.

I do agree though that there is no "you" as in a CEO that lives inside your skull behind the eyes somewhere deciding stuff .it's all happening spontaneously  . But this realization alone isn't complete enlightenment. There are other facets to enlightenment .

[Someone here]

12 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

you cannot know the truth because the truth is everything. you can realize that what is not everything, that is, what is limited, is a lie.

the truth is everything. what's the use of knowing that? It's the same as not knowing. but it is another thing to stop being limited and become everything. So, you live the truth, and it's nothing you can imagine, no matter how much imagination you have

Actually understanding that you don't know everything is a sign of acquiring some maturity and some common sense, not enlightenment. Ideally this is not where humans end their path of growth and development  . it's where they begin.

[Someone here]

9 hours ago, RMQualtrough said:

It's all a massive cope.

I do feel confident that there isn't anywhere to go. And if you knew the truth you'd know there isn't actually a you being to know that truth at all... And it follows then that it doesn't really matter. As there isn't ever anyone knowing anything OR not knowing anything anyway, as there isn't anyone full stop.

Enlightenment is not Nihilism  .

You should probably listen to some Alan Watts, he’s quite good on all this .I can’t really keep track of his thoughts but hey ho, it doesn’t matter.

Nirvana too. Very good on this.

Don’t blow your brains out though because the entire universe is created within you by your experience of it. So you can choose what matters. Let your heart steer you towards finding meaning and what matters, to you.

[Adamq8]

16 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Yes, totally. But I don't believe enlightenment is a myth. Its a real experience that you can have. 

Now,granted ,There will be different levels of enlightenment. Or let me say that different people will have different explanation of ‘enlightenment. So that will be people specifics..

At the beginners level it could be situational enlightenment that they are in at the moment of enlightenment.. more like how we grow at different stages in life.. when we start learning alphabets to sentences to essays.

The fairly enlighten ones will have more wholistic control as compared to someone who just started on the path of spirituality.

So you must have the experience yourself in order to understand  .its like trying to describe color to a blind person. Not gonna work. 

Yeah I agree, I also think that there is awakening and enlightenment because there has been plenty of moments of recognition of truth, but it is slippery.

I also feel that, truth does not necessary entail no self either, or a nihilistic view of reality, it is still something that is missing from these views/experiences.

I believe that the great theistic traditions have the answer and the path to follow for a joyful life and also as a map to transcending egoic needs and to abide in Truth, but I feel also that the classical approach like in sufism and christian mystics and what not, have been lost in todays traditions, but there is ofcourse a few really profound thinkers and teachers left as well, just have to sort the wheat from the chaff.

And also ive noticed that profound philosophers have the ability to also penetrate and show you the truth through thinking.

Thinking, logic etc, is to demonized in spirituality nowadays, because it is sometimes easily seen through with the rational mind that some of the beliefs of certain traditions and groups is simply horseshit and can't stand a rational inquiry into the principle of their beliefs without crumbling.

 

[Someone here]

Any excessive thinking of any kind accumulates concepts and delusions. If you stumble upon any topic including spirtuality and start incessantly thinking and conceptualizing about it ,it won’t only cause stress and anxiety but it will also hinder your spirtual progress,it will back fire on you.

But also don’t try to suppress those thoughts because supressing thoughts using thoughts will create further anxiety and irritation. So you have to leave your mind alone just let thoughts come and go untill they get exhausted and come to an end.

People in the contemporary world want freedom to experience spirituality in their own pace, in the doze that they are  ready for. Adhering to religious authorities or submitting to religious power structures are not very attractive to the modern person.

It’s a great development in my opinion. But the move towards spirituality is not without its flaws, for even the world of spirituality has its hierarchy in the inner plains. Right now, its a bit free-for-all, the blind teaching the blind and both are running around in circles not finding enlightenment.

Because when you find a true spiritual master ( “guru”) who has authority in the unseen spiritual world to teach, your heart will be drawn to that teacher and you’ll want to follow him and learn from him!

Meanwhile spirituality is about finding the truth on your own.

[RMQualtrough]

59 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Enlightenment is not Nihilism  .

You should probably listen to some Alan Watts, he’s quite good on all this .I can’t really keep track of his thoughts but hey ho, it doesn’t matter.

Nirvana too. Very good on this.

Don’t blow your brains out though because the entire universe is created within you by your experience of it. So you can choose what matters. Let your heart steer you towards finding meaning and what matters, to you.

I'm legitimately completely void of the need for meaning. I've never thought about meaning or needed it. That's probably helpful.

I am very much content with my ultimately meaningless life right now. I'm excited about getting a new shower fitted. I want one of those digital ones with a remote so I can turn it on to the temp I want before I step in there.

Why would I blow my brains out? I'm excited for my cool new shower. And I'll get ice cream later today.

[axiom]

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

You are falling into the neo-advaita trap .

Obviously you exist. Touch you'd body .feel your sense of self . There you go.

I do agree though that there is no "you" as in a CEO that lives inside your skull behind the eyes somewhere deciding stuff .it's all happening spontaneously  . But this realization alone isn't complete enlightenment. There are other facets to enlightenment .

There is understanding of Advaita (rare) and misunderstanding of Advaita. That is all. 

Enlightenment actually has nothing to do with facets or concepts or realisations. Ultimately it is the complete absence of all these ego games / dream logic.

All of the work anyone thinks they have done towards enlightenment is useless, and is completely without meaning.

[RMQualtrough]

2 hours ago, Someone here said:

You are falling into the neo-advaita trap .

Obviously you exist. Touch you'd body .feel your sense of self . There you go.

I do agree though that there is no "you" as in a CEO that lives inside your skull behind the eyes somewhere deciding stuff .it's all happening spontaneously  . But this realization alone isn't complete enlightenment. There are other facets to enlightenment .

"Neo-advaita" is correct, the "trap" is the fact that people speak that way because they're so far up their own ass they don't care if anyone understands them, they just want to sound "deep".

It's nothing to do with whether or not it's correct.

E.g. right now if I was an obnoxious narcissist LOSER I'd say "there is nobody to fall into a neo advaita trap." That is the "trap". It's the term for narcissist twats like Nahm who speak purposefully in ways to bamboozle others so they can feel smarter than you.

[axiom]

@RMQualtrough Neo Advaita language seems to be about exhausting the sense of self, as it gives it absolutely nothing to hold on to. It is designed to be maximally frustrating and maddening. An impenetrable wall of reality. Neo Advaita recognises that the self will otherwise try to apply or utilise new "valuable information" in its quest for enlightenment, which of course just keeps the illusion going.

[Gidiot]

If there is no ground to being how could you assert you exist. “Here I am”  yea but “I” isnt permanent and neither is here. Where is here? It’s all a mind game. Zoom out far enough and eventually there is no ground of “here”. Seems like an appearance to me

Edited September 30, 2022 by Gidiot