Substitution for Truth?

[Someone here]

If you are not enlightened, then you probably don't know what Truth is . But are you satisfied with this state of not knowing ? Why not brainwash yourself with any kind of ideology or religion and buy your peace of mind instead of doing the hard work of finding the truth by yourself? 

The point I'm trying to make is that given that our current state in the spiritual journey is less than ,let's call it ,"fully awake ".. Then how do you at least find a ground for your metaphysical and epistemic worldview which you know isn't complete and you are deluded about ?

If you knew the Truth, it would make your  life a whole lot easier. But one thing about truth is that it’s hard to cover up once you recognise it for what it truly is. When you learn the fundamentals of some truth, others can’t deceive you into believing “alternative truths” or modified truths. You can easily see if claims other people make fit the truth or not. False infromation doesn’t fit/connect with the truth without having to twist it in some fundamental and obvious way. Thus you know that something is wrong with the new information you’ve been given. But the question is are you there yet ,or do you got it all figured out? 

[Jannes]

I think you can only delude yourself in a shallow way or at least the delusion will be a lot weaker then knowing the truth. I think it’s so funny that religious people pray and try to prove their faith in god. Praying or showing that you believe in god is a sign that you aren’t sure about it because if you were there would be no point in doing it. (Unless there are other practical reasons for it that I don’t know) 

[Godishere]

You can't know the truth because you are the truth. So basically unless you're doing the practices to become aware you are the truth, you're just entertaining/distracting yourself. 

The whole forum is basically a distraction from the truth ?

It's good to have the theory if you actually awaken so you don't think you've gone insane though.

 

 

[Someone here]

5 minutes ago, Jannes said:

I think you can only delude yourself in a shallow way or at least the delusion will be a lot weaker then knowing the truth. I think it’s so funny that religious people pray and try to prove their faith in god. Praying or showing that you believe in god is a sign that you aren’t sure about it because if you were there would be no point in doing it. (Unless there are other practical reasons for it that I don’t know) 

All religions  play on the weak spot that humans have..which is the psychological need to believe something. That can happen in all sorts of ways.

We're highly suggestible. We adopt the beliefs of a group we are with. Our programming as we grow up can be such that it doesn't fit the real world. And there are many other reasons.

So yeah..you can know something makes no sense and still need to believe it. If it makes you feel good about yourself and your life .religious people Idon't think they  have a delusion... but they certainly have some dissonance between what they  know (that delusions exist) and what they feel.

delusion is, by definition, fooling yourself into believing something that is not true

I have adjusted the definition of delusion to something that fits our needs. Which seems to be that humans can't control what they believe if they just weren't weak.

[Someone here]

3 minutes ago, Godishere said:

You can't know the truth because you are the truth. So basically unless you're doing the practices to become aware you are the truth, you're just entertaining/distracting yourself. 

The whole forum is basically a distraction from the truth ?

It's good to have the theory if you actually awaken so you don't think you've gone insane though.

 

 

Fundamentally, distraction is everything that keeps away your concentration on one thing you’re supposed to be doing or thinking. Thus, everything could be a distraction, except for the thing/action you’re focused (or supposed to be focused) on.

However, at the same time, everything could not necessarily be a distraction, because we can concentrate on every action and thing (at least individually, unless you relate “everything” as a whole thing).

If theorising is a distraction, then it is distracting from less important matters. Personally, i have incorporated philosophy into my thought-processes, since i was a small child. So perhaps i have a “gift” for it, or a curse, depending on who you ask. Those that dislike my philosophizing, I've found, are those persons who are unable to discipline their train of thought, and are most often derailed by ego or negative emotion. They get frustrated or embarrassed at their lack and project it on to me

[Gesundheit2]

"Truth" is an illusion. There's not an entity called "Truth" out there somewhere. It's something that people imagine and project onto the world.

[Godishere]

When I say distraction I mean it loosely. Why I say distraction is because the thing you fear the most is to discover that nothing is real. So it's fun to theorize and philosophize about the truth instead of facing the truth. It's pretty funny if you think about it.

I have found in myself that all conceptualization only led further from the truth but I had to go through that stage to have that epiphany. It's actually so relieving to know that any belief is falsehood. The ego will never stop seeking until you have that insight, I am the Truth.

 

[Godishere]

@Gesundheit2 we are the truth. And that's the limit of language, any further is only possible through self realization

[Someone here]

4 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said:

"Truth" is an illusion. There's not an entity called "Truth" out there somewhere. It's something that people imagine and project onto the world.

You can’t understand this with more thinking though. It is crystal clear to me that neither true nor false make any sense ..because they depend on each other.  However there exist something called absolute truth. Without thoughts there is no what isn’t, only what is.

1 minute ago, Godishere said:

When I say distraction I mean it loosely. Why I say distraction is because the thing you fear the most is to discover that nothing is real. So it's fun to theorize and philosophize about the truth instead of facing the truth. It's pretty funny if you think about it.

I have found in myself that all conceptualization only led further from the truth but I had to go through that stage to have that epiphany. It's actually so relieving to know that any belief is falsehood. The ego will never stop seeking until you have that insight, I am the Truth.

 

Philosophy is about giving you the thinking tools to seek truth for yourself. Philosophy is not going to lead you to truth. You are the only one that can lead yourself to truth.

For example, your car is not going to get you to school. You driving your car to school is going to get you to school.

Philosophy is not going to get you to truth. You using philosophy and seeking truth is going to lead you to truth.

[Gesundheit2]

@Someone here @Godishere The word truth itself is "the problem". It carries a certain positive/assertive ontological meaning with it that otherwise does not exist.

Then humans learned to add adjectives such as "absolute" and "relative" on top of that original confusion. It's just interesting. People seeking their own imaginations. Cats chasing their own tails.

Edited September 29, 2022 by Gesundheit2

[Godishere]

4 minutes ago, Someone here said:

You can’t understand this with more thinking though. It is crystal clear to me that neither true nor false make any sense ..because they depend on each other.  However there exist something called absolute truth. Without thoughts there is no what isn’t, only what is.

I think we say "the truth" because when you awaken it becomes obvious what is a lie ? 

11 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Philosophy is about giving you the thinking tools to seek truth for yourself. Philosophy is not going to lead you to truth. You are the only one that can lead yourself to truth.

For example, your car is not going to get you to school. You driving your car to school is going to get you to school.

Philosophy is not going to get you to truth. You using philosophy and seeking truth is going to lead you to truth.

Well said, and all of that was done with philosophy! But you're right. I don't think it's necessary, but for us western, logical type it does seem to be.

 

[Someone here]

17 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said:

@Someone here @Godishere The word truth itself is "the problem". It carries a certain positive/assertive ontological meaning with it that otherwise does not exist.

Then humans learned to add adjectives such as "absolute" and "relative" on top of that original confusion. It's just interesting. People seeking their own imaginations. Cats chasing their own tails.

Obviously some truth must exist. Otherwise we would say, “Truth does not exist,” which is equivalent to saying, “It’s true that no truth exists.” That’s an obvious contradiction.

Furthermore, truth must be whole (singular) and complete. If it was split (instead of whole), what would be on the other side? More truth? If it was incomplete, where would the rest of the truth be? In nonexistence land?

Truth must also be infinite. What would be beyond it? More truth?

I could go on, but think I’ve made my point

[VeganAwake]

The seeking for something called Truth ends up being a completely egoic driven endeavor..... it's always about "if I know the truth MY life will be better" and it will even disguise the purpose of said endeavors as also making everyone else's lives better as well!

The sense of self is the constant need or desire to try to make things better than the current experience.

The seeking literally makes it seem like it's somewhere else....it's actually hilarious when the whole apparent predicament is seen through! 

There's nothing right or wrong with being content or discontent.... yep it's that free!

♥ 

Edited September 29, 2022 by VeganAwake

[Gesundheit2]

@Someone here Why do you insist on the label "truth"? Life is life, why can't you leave it at just that? I think it's absurd to romanticize an abstract concept.

Since truth is an abstract concept, it must then only exist as a finite form as opposed to another finite form which we call a lie. It seems some people just like to go overboard with "truth" and then try make it out to be some noble and universal/absolute thing.

Edited September 29, 2022 by Gesundheit2

[Someone here]

7 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said:

@Someone here Why do you insist on the label "truth"? Life is life, why can't you leave it at just that? I think it's absurd to romanticize an abstract concept.

Since truth is an abstract concept, it must then only exist as a finite form as opposed to another finite form which we call a lie. It seems some people just like to go overboard with "truth" and then try make it out to be some noble and universal/absolute thing.

Because Well, suppose the answer to the questions "does truth exist ?" is ‘no.’ If the answer is ‘no,’ then it follows that ‘it is the case that there is no absolute truth,’ but that would mean that it’s absolute truth that there is no absolute truth. But that’s a contradiction. So the answer can’t be ‘no,’ and we’re left with a ‘yes’ answer. So there you go: there is an absolute truth.

14 minutes ago, VeganAwake said:

The seeking for something called Truth ends up being a completely egoic driven endeavor..... it's always about "if I know the truth MY life will be better" and it will even disguise the purpose of said endeavors as also making everyone else's lives better as well!

The sense of self is the constant need or desire to try to make things better than the current experience.

The seeking literally makes it seem like it's somewhere else....it's actually hilarious when the whole apparent predicament is seen through! 

There's nothing right or wrong with being content or discontent.... yep it's that free!

♥ 

The assertion, ‘There is no absolute truth’ is made by a relative mind.

The trouble with Spirituality as a philosophy is that the relative is trying to figure out the absolute, or the dual is conceptualizing the nondual.

Every attempt to philosophize the spiritual truths has always failed, and will always fail in the future too.

The absolute Spiritual truths are to be realized, and not merely philosophized.

Absolute truth is not subject to differentiation.

Absolute truth cannot be conceived of intellectually, or expressed verbally.

That's why when asked “what is truth”, Jesus remained silent, and Buddha turned his back and walked away.

Even if they wanted to convey the truth to those asking the question, they would not have been able to.

This is because absolute truth can only be experienced, directly, by the one's own consciousness. The consciousness has its root in the truth; it is where it came from, and what it is. This can only be understood by awakening the consciousness.

“My truth” and “your truth” are just artificial constructs of the ego.

[Gesundheit2]

16 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Because Well, suppose the answer to the questions "does truth exist ?" is ‘no.’ If the answer is ‘no,’ then it follows that ‘it is the case that there is no absolute truth,’ but that would mean that it’s absolute truth that there is no absolute truth. But that’s a contradiction. So the answer can’t be ‘no,’ and we’re left with a ‘yes’ answer. So there you go: there is an absolute truth.

Of course, if you want to follow this logic you made up.

But consider this possibility: Life does not care about your logic.

[VeganAwake]

Enlightenment doesn't answer any how's or why's, rather it bluntly confronts the apparent questioner with "who is asking"

What is this 'me' character that wants to KNOW so badly, what does it consist of?

Like taking a fresh outside look at these inner behaviors and needs!

♥ 

[axiom]

2 hours ago, Someone here said:

If you are not enlightened, then you probably don't know what Truth is.

It's sort of the other way around. If you are not enlightened, you may think you know truth.

But enlightenment is not knowing, and not being able to know.

[Someone here]

11 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said:

Of course, if you want to follow this logic you made up.

But consider this possibility: Life does not care about your logic.

Well, a consistent logic, if it the correct logic for the semantic domain at hand, can be used to reason from truths to truths. But this of course leaves us with the problem of establishing some initial set of truths to even start reasoning from. Logic cannot be used for this purpose. Truth is in this sense extra-logical. I used logic with you because you are highly logical and skeptical. But the truth is that Truth can only be experienced .you can't logic your way to Truth .

5 minutes ago, axiom said:

It's sort of the other way around. If you are not enlightened, you may think you know truth.

But enlightenment is not knowing, and not being able to know.

Can you be enlightened  without knowing what enlightenment is ?

[Adamq8]

Have you ever considered the possibility that enlightenment might just be a "religious" fiction too?