"Unprovoked" war

[rnd]

My ego always likes to post links to the videos that support my point of view, and here's one of them

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVXzwnU1H6U

 

Joe Rogan, and a talk  about Putin ... therefore, it must be a conspirasy theory, propaganda and lie, of course, unless it critisizes Russia and prases US and its allies.

One the other hand: what is it, factually, would you disagree about in this video?

Would you say that the war started out of the blue, with the only objective to enlarge the territory of Russia, with no provokative moves from Ukraine, NATO and US? And Ukraine, EU and NATO are fighting against the "evil force", in the name of the freedom for the whole humanity -- the way that the most of US and EUropean mass media portray it?

Edited September 29, 2022 by rnd

[Alexop]

of course the west is biased. They don`t see all the shit they did and do, just the oponent`s faults. Beggining with Europe stealing half the world or more 400 years ago, then the US sticking his nose and military bases all over the world throwing down any gov. that oposes them, then the Irak war, drone strikes, western companies exploiting children etc. And with the NATO part, well... I live in Romania and it was our choice to join NATO because we were sick of Russia, if an independent country wants to join it, so be it.

[DocWatts]

Of course Putin is the proximate cause of the Ukraine war.

But the US and Western Europe share much of the blame for the geopolitical situation that gave rise to Putin's regime, and more broadly for much of the antagonism between Russia and the West.

After the Soviet Union collapsed, the US and Western Europe had an opportunity to integrate Russia into Europe and make that country into a long term ally.

Had they extended the equivalent of a new Marshal Plan to help Russia ease the transition away from communism and into a market economy, Russia could have avoided the economic collapse of the 90s that led to so much suffering for ordinary Russians and resulted in that country becoming a mafia state due to the way that capitalism was implemented in Russia.

To put this in context, you need to understand that the deprivation in Russia was on par with the Great Depression. And sadly the newly emerging Russian democracy that Mikhail Gorbachov fought so hard for was smothered in the cradle.

Instead of a helping hand, Russia was subjected to a brutal application of economic Shock Doctrine, in which privitizarion was carried out for the benefit of multinational corporations and millionaires, with close to zero consideration given to the effects that this would have on ordinary people who suddenly found themselves without support structures.

[Ulax]

@rnd It doesn't strike me as anywhere near systemic thinking.

Do you blame the flower for not growing? Or do you try and find out why the flower doesn't grow?

[Danioover9000]

@DocWatts

33 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

Of course Putin is the proximate cause of the Ukraine war.

But the US and Western Europe share much of the blame for the geopolitical situation that gave rise to Putin's regime, and more broadly for much of the antagonism between Russia and the West.

After the Soviet Union collapsed, the US and Western Europe had an opportunity to integrate Russia into Europe and make that country into a long term ally.

Had they extended the equivalent of a new Marshal Plan to help Russia ease the transition away from communism and into a market economy, Russia could have avoided the economic collapse of the 90s that led to so much suffering for ordinary Russians and resulted in that country becoming a mafia state due to the way that capitalism was implemented in Russia.

To put this in context, you need to understand that the deprivation in Russia was on par with the Great Depression. And sadly the newly emerging Russian democracy that Mikhail Gorbachov fought so hard for was smothered in the cradle.

Instead of a helping hand, Russia was subjected to a brutal application of economic Shock Doctrine, in which privitizarion was carried out for the benefit of multinational corporations and millionaires, with close to zero consideration given to the effects that this would have on ordinary people who suddenly found themselves without support structures.

   Yeah, that is one of many historical blunders that are felt to this day. So many consequences could have been avoided, if given enough information and wisdom.

[rnd]

13 hours ago, Ulax said:

Do you blame the flower for not growing? Or do you try and find out why the flower doesn't grow?

Who's the "flower" and what's "not growing" in your question?

[rnd]

20 hours ago, Alexop said:

I live in Romania and it was our choice to join NATO because we were sick of Russia,

The people were? Or your government said on TV that the people were?

And what was the sickness about?

[trenton]

13 hours ago, DocWatts said:

Of course Putin is the proximate cause of the Ukraine war.

But the US and Western Europe share much of the blame for the geopolitical situation that gave rise to Putin's regime, and more broadly for much of the antagonism between Russia and the West.

After the Soviet Union collapsed, the US and Western Europe had an opportunity to integrate Russia into Europe and make that country into a long term ally.

Had they extended the equivalent of a new Marshal Plan to help Russia ease the transition away from communism and into a market economy, Russia could have avoided the economic collapse of the 90s that led to so much suffering for ordinary Russians and resulted in that country becoming a mafia state due to the way that capitalism was implemented in Russia.

To put this in context, you need to understand that the deprivation in Russia was on par with the Great Depression. And sadly the newly emerging Russian democracy that Mikhail Gorbachov fought so hard for was smothered in the cradle.

Instead of a helping hand, Russia was subjected to a brutal application of economic Shock Doctrine, in which privitizarion was carried out for the benefit of multinational corporations and millionaires, with close to zero consideration given to the effects that this would have on ordinary people who suddenly found themselves without support structures.

@DocWatts wow. I learned a lot from that. You do a great job of tying the consequences of history together.

I take it that because the West is biased I was blind to many of the ways in which it exploits the world. This is a very significant one I didn't know about. This is probably why nobody cared when Gorbachov died. Now the modern geopolitical situation with Russia makes much more sense.

Unfortunately short term profits seem to matter more than the long term well being of all parties involved. As a result of this selfishness the West continues to pay the cost to this day.

[Ulax]

Do you blame the flower for not growing? Or do you try and find out why the flower doesn't grow?

9 hours ago, rnd said:

Who's the "flower" and what's "not growing" in your question?

You can everyone and every country as being a flower. The 'not growing' bit refers to people's behaviour.

In this context, its the following. Essentially do you blame russia for acting as it does? Or do you try and find out why russia acts as it does?

In the above sentence, you can swap in any person or country for russia.

Make sense to you?

[DocWatts]

10 hours ago, trenton said:

@DocWatts wow. I learned a lot from that. You do a great job of tying the consequences of history together.

I take it that because the West is biased I was blind to many of the ways in which it exploits the world. This is a very significant one I didn't know about. This is probably why nobody cared when Gorbachov died. Now the modern geopolitical situation with Russia makes much more sense.

Unfortunately short term profits seem to matter more than the long term well being of all parties involved. As a result of this selfishness the West continues to pay the cost to this day.

Thanks!

Also, to add a bit more context as to Putin himself; I'll preface this by saying that I'm in no way justifying the Ukraine war or the numerous human rights violations of Putin's regime.

But it's helpful to understand that from the chaotic state that the country was left in during the economic freefall of the 90s, it was basically inevitable that a strong man would end up in control in that sort of survival situation.

The reason that Putin's regime was able to stay in power is that he was the first post-Soviet leader to impose some actual limitations on the blatant looting of the State by Russian oligarchs and cartels, which did eventually help to stabilize the Russian economy and improve quality of life.for ordinary Russians.

While Russia of course still problems with corruption of course, the days of oligarchs using the State as thier personal piggy bank were put an end to.

Tldr; Putin was a direct result of the botched way that capitalism was implemented in Russia, and the rise and survival of his regime hinged using strongman tactics to stabilize a desperate economic situation.

[rnd]

On 9/30/2022 at 9:28 AM, Ulax said:

Do you blame the flower for not growing? Or do you try and find out why the flower doesn't grow?

You can everyone and every country as being a flower. The 'not growing' bit refers to people's behaviour.

In this context, its the following. Essentially do you blame russia for acting as it does? Or do you try and find out why russia acts as it does?

In the above sentence, you can swap in any person or country for russia.

Make sense to you?

No, it doesn't.  Why not? Because you've preassumed that the Western and US people are somehow more grown up, superiour and pieceful, whereas russians, and virtually every one country that's not US, CA, UK, EU block, AU, NZ, have mentally stuck in the stone age.

 

Let's apply the same logic to the West and US, shall we?

 

(1) Do you blame US that it's been bombing civilians in the Middle East? Do you blame US for that it bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki by a nuclear bomb? How about Vietnam? How about Kosovo?
Do you blame the US that it's been provoking haous all over the Globe over the past 50-100 years? Or "do you help barbaric americans" to grow?

(2) The same can be applied to the European countries -- they've also been bombing other countries, including the Middle East.  Right now they're buying off wheat from Russia (!) thus preventing African countries to buy it, thus provoking femin in Africa.
 

Should "we" help barbaric european people to grow up as well?

(3) And both US and Europe have been prolonging the Ukraine-Russia war by pouring oil in fire. They essentially have been killing ukranians and russians.

The americans and eruopeans are not evil, are they? They may be a little barbaric and inferiour but they are good. Huh?

And "we" as russians, chinese, latin americans, indians, asians, africans.... simply should understand those a little primive,  sometimes a little bit stupid too and blood-firsty americans and europeans!

And we should feel compassion towards them; see their potential, good motives, and therefore help them overcome their inner daemons,  barbaric traits and primitive, greedy behaviour 
 

---

Have I applied your logic to the americans and europeans correctly?

Edited October 1, 2022 by rnd

[zurew]

@rnd Your passive agressive behaviour and your closed mindedness to this topic is stunning. Take a deep breath, and reread what @Ulax said, and then you can realise that he didn't make any big or aggressive claims.

Also your accusation of bias is very funny, because your bias is clearly beaming on this one.

[Ulax]

7 hours ago, rnd said:

No, it doesn't.  Why not? Because you've preassumed that the Western and US people are somehow more grown up, superiour and pieceful, whereas russians, and virtually every one country that's not US, CA, UK, EU block, AU, NZ, have mentally stuck in the stone age.

 

Let's apply the same logic to the West and US, shall we?

 

(1) Do you blame US that it's been bombing civilians in the Middle East? Do you blame US for that it bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki by a nuclear bomb? How about Vietnam? How about Kosovo?
Do you blame the US that it's been provoking haous all over the Globe over the past 50-100 years? Or "do you help barbaric americans" to grow?

(2) The same can be applied to the European countries -- they've also been bombing other countries, including the Middle East.  Right now they're buying off wheat from Russia (!) thus preventing African countries to buy it, thus provoking femin in Africa.
 

Should "we" help barbaric european people to grow up as well?

(3) And both US and Europe have been prolonging the Ukraine-Russia war by pouring oil in fire. They essentially have been killing ukranians and russians.

The americans and eruopeans are not evil, are they? They may be a little barbaric and inferiour but they are good. Huh?

And "we" as russians, chinese, latin americans, indians, asians, africans.... simply should understand those a little primive,  sometimes a little bit stupid too and blood-firsty americans and europeans!

And we should feel compassion towards them; see their potential, good motives, and therefore help them overcome their inner daemons,  barbaric traits and primitive, greedy behaviour 
 

---

Have I applied your logic to the americans and europeans correctly?

I don't think you have interpreted my comment as I intended.

Essentially, no one is to blame. There's just various systems at play which are causing the conflict.

Study the system and you study the problem.